Shlomo Carelbach

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  • #589177

    nameless
    Member

    Can everyone please share their thoughts and pay tribute to this amazing legend. What was his secret? Why did he have such a powerful impact that is still evident today?

    May he rest in blissful peace.

    #895702

    Joseph
    Participant
    #895703

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    Moderators Note: WARNING. Nothing more needed to be said. If you don’t figure it out, then your going to get booted.

    We’ve had enough of the trolling.

    #895706

    RoshYeshivah
    Member

    joseph thanks for posting that link. There was some good old days in the CR when ppl actually discussed some topics! c’mon guys let’s here it!

    #895707

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    i’m no Shlomo Carelbach fan!!!

    #895708

    notpashut
    Member

    MUSICAL legend.

    #895709

    squeak
    Participant

    Joseph, your link goes to a discussion about a different personality. I never heard of this “Carelbach” either but that’s no reason to pretend he doesn’t exist.

    #895710

    jphone
    Member

    The musician or Mashgiach?

    #895711

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    LOL I fell for this one; I knew there was a well known Torah personality named Carlebach (from Chaim Berlin???) but I did not know that his first name was Shlomo. There are several Carlebach families, all related and all related to the musical performer, and the name Shlomo is found across the families.

    Years ago, the head of computer sales at 47th St Photo was a Lubavitcher chossid named Shlomo Carlebach. At the time I was starting my business and shopped there quite often for office equipment and I’d constantly hear the name Shlomo Carlebach over the PA system. One day I asked the salesman who was serving me if they could also page Mordechai ben David and Avraham Fried so we could have a concert.

    #895712

    kapusta
    Participant

    Itzik I literally LOLed!(BTW, how is is spelled in the past tense?)

    #895713

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    Itzik_s: that’s really funny!!!

    #895715

    amichai
    Participant

    all beautiful jewish music songs that we sing today were from shlomo carlebach. it’s a totally different beat from the music of today. he really reached the neshoma with his music. it doesn’t matter if you agree with his hashkofos or not. the deveykus was there when he sang a niggun.

    #895716

    i heard that the amshinover rebe sais that his “mimkoimcha” is from the beis hamikdash. doeas anyone know which one? as far as i know, he had 2.

    #895717

    “i heard that the amshinover rebe sais that his “mimkoimcha” is from the beis hamikdash. doeas anyone know which one? as far as i know, he had 2″

    We also had 2 batei mikdash Probably 1 Each

    #895718

    RebRY
    Member

    I am not a fan of him.

    #895719

    Sam2
    Participant

    RebRY: Such a statement is Lashon Harah. You either need to give a reason that would be Nogeiya to everyone here or you can’t say that. (You could say that his music doesn’t appeal to you; that’s just a statement of personal preference and is for sure not Lashon Harah.) (And no, this is not an endorsement of R’ Shlomo (nor is the lack of endorsement a condemnation); I was just pointing out that such a statement is not Muttar to make by itself.)

    #895720

    Chortkov
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim says that one may not ask somebody if a shiur was good, because each person has different preferences.

    Music should be no different – his voice, his songs, the music accompanying him — You must not comment on anything about any singer about your ‘personal preferences’.

    #895721

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Feif: To echo Joe, this post looks like it was written by anyone but you: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shloimele-zl#post-2999

    #895722

    Feif Un
    Participant

    And why is that?

    Was this thread just bumped up because of the recent article about Shlomo?

    #895723

    That’s strange. And Joe gave a wink too.

    #895724

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, when I read the post and then looked at the author, I was very taken aback. That’s what happened.

    #895725

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    He has a greater degree of deep ahavas Yisroel and ahavas habriyis than the rest of the world combined.

    #895726

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Rabbaim: I’ve heard that marijuana will do that to people.

    We need to realize who and what Carlebach was. He was a gifted song writer (although personally I don’t enjoy may of his songs.) He also had a tremendous level of ahavas Yisrael. Actually, not just for Jews – he really loved everyone. Of course, that was a standard thing for most hippies.

    However, many people view him as a great Rabbi. Yes, when he was younger, he learned in Lakewood, and supposedly did very well there. But when he got older, things changed. The things he did with women are well known. He encouraged mixed dancing, and he used to hug and kiss women he didn’t know. He also performed with non-Jewish singers on stage (notably Bob Dylan).

    Is this how a Rabbi should be acting? Obviously not! So if you want to learn from Carlebach, learn what it means to love your fellow Jew. But don’t make him out to have been an incredible Rabbi. The fact is that not only did he sin with regard to the opposite gender, he encouraged others to do so as well.

    #895727

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    feif un: the most egregious thing you wrote comes at the end: “he encouraged others to do so as well”. Do you have a scintilla of evidence on that? This is pure rechilus (worse than loshon horah). Secodly, you write: “”he encouraged mixed dancing” ,This is absolutely false and again, pure rechilus. And what is the “chet’ of performing with non-Jewish singers? Bob dylan is JEWISH, by the way.

    To say ‘the things he did with women is well known” is more rechilus. I am absolutely astounded at what you wrote.

    About the only thing that you can hang your hat on is that “he used to hug and kiss women he didn’t know” He did do that and he was criticized for it, although he had a good reason (for another time).

    The fact is that he was responsible, single handedly, for thousands of baalei teshuva (many of which I know personally), he revolutionized jewish music and today, his music (kabbolos shabbos and more) is sung by tens of thousands of jews all over the world- and “shaar haneginah’ is right next to ‘shaar hateshuva”.

    His influence on jewish life and people in the latter half of the twentieth century is beyond measure and his influence will continue for generations.

    #895728

    It’s forbidden to say lashon hara about a dead person, especially if he was a talmid chacham. No matter what he did, there doesn’t seem to be any to’eles in discussing it. If you want to find out what you should learn from him and what you shouldn’t, look in the Shulchan Aruch, or ask your rebbe. Let’s just be dan lekaf zechus, and assume that whatever choices/mistakes he made were done with good intentions, and the rest is none of anyone’s business. If you enjoy his music, fine. If you don’t, fine.

    #895729

    cogne2
    Member

    bob dylan is jewish

    #895730

    avhaben
    Participant

    ROB: Please don’t wait for “another time” to explain his “good reasons” for kissing strange girls. And while you’re explaining that, please also address the nonconsensual issues.

    #895731

    Feif Un
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin: I have a relative who went to a Carlebach concert when she was young (this is going back close to 40 years). At the end of the show, Carlebach came up to her and tried to hug and kiss her. She refused and backed away from him, telling him, “I’m a frum girl, I don’t touch men!” He tried to persuade her to let him hug and kiss her, but she refused.

    Hugging and kissing strange women is sinning with them. That was all I meant. Yes, there have been allegations of worse, but I haven’t heard any proof, so I’m not addressing those at all.

    Carlebach was a hippie, not a Rabbi.

    #895732

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    two answers:

    to feif un:

    First, shlomo carlebach received smicha, as far as I know, so whatever his sins (if any) he is a Rabbi. You do not have to agree with this, but semicha gives you the right to be called a Rabbi and therefore Shlomo Carlebach was indeed a rabbi.

    Second- I was not there forty years ago, so what you are saying about your cousin may or may not be true. Halachically, it is even beyond “ed mipi ed”. I wrote that ,indeed, Shlomo Carlebach hugged women (more of that later)but how you wrote about it is beyond disapproval.

    to avhaben: I am not going into the debate of “kirvus le’aryos” because there are different shittas out there on that. Shlomo’s argument (and he said that many times) about hugging everyone he came into contact with (men and women) was based on the gemoro of saving a woman drowning. the gemoro says that if someone says: “I cannot jump into the water to save her because I can’t touch her” he is a “chossid shotteh”,(a stupid chossid) thereby saying clearly that you cannot use an esoteric reason when someone is dying and you must save him/her to avoid saving her.

    Shlomo said that this gemoro is talking about physical danger, the person (woman) is drowning in the physical world and we must save her,regardless of the problem of being in physical contact with a woman. Today, there are thousands of people-including women- who are drowning in the spiritual world and we must do all we can to save them. If this includes putting aside the question of “negiah’, then so be it. Saving the person (woman) from spiritual drowning supersedes this, based on the gemoro.

    You don’t have to accept this reasoning and ,indeed, many people have been able to bring back jews without this approach but it is a rational approach and shlomo used his approach to save thousands of jews- all singlehandedly.

    His influence on the Jewish people cannot be underestimated.

    #895733

    2scents
    Participant

    Feif is Correct.

    I have heard the same of a very close relative that is a ‘chosid’ of Shlome.

    I have also heard the same from a known seforim store owner in Monsey (who considers himself a Carblach fan) that Shlome Carblach would often stop by his store, and start kissing and hugging women. He laughingly recounts how the chasiddshe ladies used get hysterical and start running to the door.

    Last I checked, Wikipedia isn’t either that kind to Shlome Carblach.

    #895734

    twisted
    Participant

    I used to walk out of shul if they were “doing a SC shabbos. Then I started predicting it and avoiding those times and shuls. I’ve mellowed a bit since.

    #895735

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    2scents- i know the seforim store owner that you refer to- and I don’t believe that shlomo ever did that to chassidische ladies.I don’t understand your reference to wikipedia.

    to “twisted”: your loss in not staying during kabbolos shabbos…todasy, it is used in hundreds of shuls,including the “kossel”.

    #895736

    Sam2
    Participant

    From a Rebbe of mine (I think I recall this speech pretty close to verbatim, but I might be off on a bit here or there):

    “I don’t know what’s Muttar to say. I don’t know if I should say it. Or how to say it. But I have to say it. When they have a ‘Carlebach Kaballas Shabbos’, it’s not right. There’s nothing wrong with the tunes or the singing. I happen to find them uplifting sometimes. But I feel like to name a part of Davening after someone that that person should be someone very special. I think it’s known-the stories about him and women and him and drugs. And if it’s not known, then people really have no idea who he was. He may have been a lot of good things. Or maybe not even that. But he definitely wasn’t someone to name a style of Davening or Chassidus after.”

    #895737

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    sam2-I have respect for your postings but I must correct you on some of your assertions. Shlomo was never, ever involved in drugs. That is a lie. Please correct this.

    Now, I don’t know who your rebbe was that said that but think for one moment- if shlomo zz’l would have been such a bad person and such a sinner, do you think that today ,there would such a big following in niggunim,in nussach and even in loving every jew? Don’t you think that ‘min hashomayim’ they would have prevented that?

    In your postings, you assert that the establishment of the medinah was an act of HKBH (to which I concur) , in spite of all the faults and difficulties. Why not think the same of Shlomo’s legacy in music? Do you know anyone else in the musical world over the past two centuries who had as much influence???

    #895738

    yichusdik
    Participant

    As a baal tfilaoh, I love to use R’ Shlomo’s nigunim. They are indeed on a spiritual level of their own.

    I also recognize that he was a man who loved his fellow Jew perhaps more deeply and more sincerely than almost anyone in his generation, and in that he was an example for us all.

    As to his general “touchy feely” approach to men and women, it seems on the face of it poshut that it wasn’t done in a halachic manner, but he had his own justifications, acceptable or not.

    However.

    The testimony and evidence of his behavior, especially with young women, especially when they were vulnerable, seems straightforward and overwhelming and is available for anyone to research. I am sure there are many, many people out there who did more and worse and with violence to vulnerable people; but that doesn’t excuse his behavior, especially as a musmach and a putative role model.

    It is a real challenge for us, determining the line between a character flaw and a dangerous compulsion.

    #895739

    squeak
    Participant

    i heard that the amshinover rebe sais that his “mimkoimcha” is from the beis hamikdash.

    In Amshinov time, the beis hamikdosh probably hasn’t been destroyed yet. Hence he could say that about many contemporary songs.

    The only question is how has the Amshinover already heard of this song?

    #895740

    Kozov
    Member

    Nevuah, Ruach Hakodesh, Giluy Eliyahu, or Chochma Niflaa.

    Quite likely though, it was taken out of context.

    Rabbiofberlin- if you know the storeowner why dont you just ask him?

    #895741

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Yichusdik: “The testimony of his behavior…..seesm straightforward and overwhelming and is available for anyone to research…”

    I must again protest the hearsay aspect of this. There is absolutely no hard evidence of this at all. This has been a vendetta pursued by a very small handful of women for their own purposes.

    There is a lot more evidence of male child molestation by many frum jews and yet, everyone in power refuses to pursue this and sweeps all this under the carpet.

    Forgive me if I take the allegations against shlomo with a large soupspoon of salt. I knew him well and never saw him do what you allege.

    #895742

    Toi
    Participant

    rob- are you joking. get a grip.

    #895743

    Kozov
    Member

    go ask the storeowner.

    #895744

    2scents
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin

    It’s very interesting why you work so hard to cover up for Shlomo however you have no problem bashing frum Jews.

    For the record, Frum Jews do NOT Molest children, someone that molests is not Frum.

    Anyhow, the fact that he has kissed women is well known. whatever his reasoning for that would be is irrelevant.

    #895745

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    kozov-I know the store owner and I also know what he thought of shlomo. why don’t you ask him his view on shlomo?

    2scents-you are joking, right? no molestation by “frum” jews?? is this another attempt at sweeping that criminal and immoral behavior under the carpet?for the record, I am not bashing anyone-just responding to bashing another jew.

    I acknowledged what you say about women and I have you an answer, please read.

    #895746

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“RebRY: Such a statement is Lashon Harah.”

    No, it’s not. The CC says it’s only a Minhag not to speak on people who have since passed away.

    Really this topic about Reb Shlomo A’H belongs in this topic -“My friend moved to uws and is now otd”.

    It’s just a Nebach what happened to him. My father used to learn with him when he came back to visit BMG. My father showed me a picture of him at a Chasuna -he was Yeshivish and had a beard.

    Only Chashuv Bochrim wore beards in that time.

    #895747

    Sam2
    Participant

    rob: I don’t know whether or not he did drugs. I do know that he has advocated getting high (or has been quoted as such) in his books.

    #895748

    squeak: “Amshinov time”

    Good one! I got a kick out of that.

    #895749

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Sam2=you must learn not to trust anyone or anything unless you see it in swritten form. When you get me the “book’ where he said that, I’ll beleive you. For now, I will trust my own eyes and ears of many years that Inever,ever heard such a thing.

    health- shlomo carlebach had a beard his whole life and never touched it.

    #895750

    Mammele
    Participant

    “if shlomo zz’l would have been such a bad person and such a sinner, do you think that today ,there would such a big following in niggunim,in nussach and even in loving every jew? Don’t you think that ‘min hashomayim’ they would have prevented that? In your postings, you assert that the establishment of the medinah was an act of HKBH (to which I concur) , in spite of all the faults and difficulties. Why not think the same of Shlomo’s legacy in music?”

    ROB, I refrained from commenting on the zionism thread, because quite franky, I’m not “learned enough” but this comment undermines the validity of the post you are referring to and this one. If we follow your logic, the greeks must have been a great nation with their worship of the physical, or else Hashem wouldn’t have allowed them the “merit” of the olympics, which the whole world participates in. Or perhaps more applicable that “Achar”

    must have been a tzaddik to merit a talmud such as Reb Meir. Do you realize what, slippery slope you are on?

    When it comes to the medina some may call it min hashamyim, others “koach hasatan”.

    Back to R’ Shlomo, I’m not G-d, so I can’t judge him or the holiness of his music, just bear in mind that not everybody is so enthralled with him as you are.

    #895751

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    mammele-thanks for your posting.

    It is not a question of “being enthralled”- it is a question of the truth and loshon horah (and motzi shem ra and rechilus). Shlomo zz’l clearly had his faults but(at least for me), his qualities and achievements, his influence and “chessed’ (attested by every one!) far outweigh his sins. I do not put much faith on some of the more lurid accusations.

    Now, I am only a plain jew and I have no idea how they treat him in the heavens (please note that the gemoro has stories that sinners , when doing just one great thing, go straight to gan eden)but my point was that , if indeed he was considered a sinner “bashomayim”, how can his influence and nussach spread so widely? I do believe that everything is “min hashomayim”- if you deny that ,then you deny one of the “Ikrei hadas”-foundations of faith. See the first Ani maamin !

    And yes, the fact that the greeks had a great civilization was allowed by HKBH and the fact that “achar” became “achar” did not diminish his Torah and influence on R’Meir (see gemoro-taking the good and rejecting the bad).

    The question is not whether anyhting in this world is “min hasomyaim”- it must be, otherwise, we are all “kofrim” by denying HKBH’s direction. We CAN ask why? why was there a Holocaust? (rachmono litzlon), Why was greece so succesful? Why is there a medinah? Those are legitimate questions and some have no answers (Holocaust) but you just cannot say that something is “koach hasoton” and decide that HKBH had no input. THAT is Kefirah!

    #895752

    yichusdik
    Participant

    ROB, a couple of things. One, I am not part of the oilem that sweeps molestation under the carpet. The mindset of keeping these things and other transgressions quiet – for various reasons – is one of the most poisonous dangers facing frum communities today.

    What I shared was my personal challenge with appreciating R’ Shlomo’s greatness while recognizing what I believe to have been his grave challenges. I did not ask or tell anyone to agree with me. I am not bringing anything unknown, and I am not doing anything other than expressing my own perspective.

    We have been on the same side of too many arguments in the CR where we have been told what and how to think by too many participants for me to believe that you are telling me I can’t have my own opinion even if it is at variance with yours.

    I have, B’H, in my life had the opportunity to know and interact with many great men and women, Rabonim and gedolim like the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt’l and the Bobover Rebbe z’tl, R’ Noach Weinberg zt’l, Prime Ministers and Presidents like Rabin, Peres, Bibi, Olmert and Sharon, 4 Canadian Prime Ministers, cabinet ministers, numerous Generals, one US President, and dozens more inspiring leaders. I have rarely encountered a leader and influencer who is so close to perfect that they do not have a challenge, or a mis step or mis speak. For some, the challenges are almost inconsequential compared to their gadlus or their accomplishments. For others, the challenges are larger, and they call into question the legitimacy of the individual’s capacity to inspire.

    As I said, I don’t know where exactly R’Shlomo is on that continuum, but I am convinced by what I have learned (He lived in my city for a while, his daughters were born and went to school here) that there is – for me – what to be concerned about.

    #895753

    Feif Un
    Participant

    RoB: as I stated before, I’m not attacking his music or saying you shouldn’t listen to it. R’ Moshe zt”l paskened that it isn’t a problem, and that’s enough for me. Saying that he must be a good person because his music took hold so well doesn’t make sense – plenty of bad people had things that became popular as well.

    Did he accomplish good? Yes, he did. But he also did a lot of bad things. All I’m saying is to actually look at the while picture, not just the parts that look good.

    One guy once told me, “It’s Carlebach’s yartzeit this week! We should all try to live the way Shlomo did this week, because he lived his life on such a pure, high level!”

    I responded that fine, I’ll go to this guy’s house and start kissing his wife, because that was what Shlomo did – and it was such a pure, high level! He wasn’t amused.

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