October 28, 2010 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #707375ramateshkolianMember
you know, when a non frum student asks me why I am doing what I am doing, how I know it’s true, and really makes me question my beliefs and see where they came from, many times the answer is: I never thought about it, I just do it because I grew up that way (if I am honest with myself) and I grew up in a Kiruv home and do it myself. I can have all the answers, but deep down I have not looked into my own religion enough and so I would assume the majority of frum people are like me…not a good recipe for successful frumkeit and relationship with Hashem. We all need to dig deep and see why we do what we do and how do we really develop a relationship with Hashem (that doesn’t involve pain or death or health problems as the main connection). I think we need kiruv professionals for in-reach…because I bet most people wouldn’t be able to honestly answer these 18 year old not frum student’s questions…October 28, 2010 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #707376
Ramateshkolian: Perfect specimen. If you, an adult don’t have the deep down true concepts, how is a fourteen year old with a crisis going to have them. I learned it as a young adult in a way off the beaten track yeshiva, but apparently, it is not taught ever, and so we have children who need this anchor flying otd, and your average Jew not knowing the alef bais of why he is what he is. Study the Rambam Yad, the Moreh, shmone praking, the Ramban, the works of the Geonim, and the Mussar of the Neviim. And then do kiruv behatzlacha.
Twisted, a RamotalephianOctober 28, 2010 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #707377ramateshkolianMember
Exactly my point and I am working hard to make up my education….and I think we all should.we need a system of adult education, much like a kiruv program would have where adults learn the basics and then have something to give over to their kids. Give me $10,000 I’ll start a world-wide program….October 29, 2010 12:42 am at 12:42 am #707378
One thing I should point out is that now 85% of Jews worldwide are OTD. They became that way in the 17-18-1900’s. This was before the internet and TV. I believe even back then there were problems confronting modernity, and there were even fights over Torah and Mada in Europe in the late 1800’s. Making everything asur, and not accomodating, may have caused part of this.
But a big contribution was the terrible anti-semitism, poverty and discrimination in jobs that Jews faced. Most professions were off limits. I remember reading a heartfelt letter from a child in the 17 or 1800’s telling his parents that he loves them, but simply can’t make a living if he doesn’t convert. He begged them not to cut off contact. This was in a sourcebook from Rebbetzin Bleich’s course on Reform and Counter-Reform at Touro that somebody showed me.
In the 20th century the Young Israel movement has done much to keep kids in the fold, by having the Rabbi speak in English, not Yiddish, and making the davening relevant to American kids of the time. Not every “minhag” is worth preserving if it alienates kids. Today, the “minhag” of wearing black hats and white shirts may be doing the same thing that Yiddish speeches were doing 75 years ago. It is not an esssential part of Yiddishkeit, and may make certain kids feel self-conscious and out of place. We should focus on the heart, and not on superficialities.October 29, 2010 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #707379tzippiMember
PY, you’re not defining OTD the same way most people do. What happened was, at some point someone made the decision to go OTD, due to many factors, such as weak education, crushing financial pressures, allure of the outside world, etc. and all sorts of permutations of these factors. You can’t really call the mass number of Jews today anything but tinokos shenishbu.October 29, 2010 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #707380tzippiMember
PY, you’re not defining OTD the same way most people do. What happened was, at some point someone made the decision to go OTD, due to many factors, such as weak education, crushing financial pressures, allure of the outside world, everything you said, and permutations of these factors. You can’t really call the mass number of Jews today anything but tinokos shenishbu.October 29, 2010 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #707381
the key is not to slap someone around and make sure they get back in line (which heaven help the teenager who asks the wrong question of a rebbe or morah in a yeshiva today – which only exacerbates the problem) but to make sure the path we want them to follow is one that is enjoyable and fulfilling. “ol mitzvos” and “satisfying and fulfilling” are not mutually exclusive. in fact the opposite is true. Pikudei hashem yesharim, mesamchei lev. If they are not mesamchei lev, perhaps it because we are not properly giving over pikudei hashem or not giving over pikudei hashem altogether.October 29, 2010 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #707382
Tzippi, now, generations later, they are tinokos shenishbu, but at the time they left, they were OTD. However, they had nisyonos that were millions of times harder than what we have today. Poverty, Pogroms, etc. I don’t know how any of the Jews of those times (almost throughout the bitter galus) had the strength to hold on to Yiddishkeit.October 30, 2010 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #707383World SaverParticipant
Nobody has addiction problems or goes OTD because of internet, etc. It is always because of emotional problems that were there from BEFORE (caused by bad parenting). This can cause a person to go off or get addicted when he sees these images. Someone that is emotionally healthy and has a good relationship with his parents will not go OTD from these images nor will he get addicted. He will likely do Teshuva and go on with life. This is what most proffesionals in the field say.
R’ Matisyahu says he does not like the word dropouts. He calls them Pushouts!October 31, 2010 1:48 am at 1:48 am #707384mw13Participant
“Someone that is emotionally healthy and has a good relationship with his parents will not go OTD from these images nor will he get addicted.”
That is simply not true. I personally know people who became addicted who had perfectly healthy relationships with their parents. Really, I find it disturbing when people point-blank deny the danger that technology can pose. Not everything is “the system”‘s fault. We must protect our own children from the obvious dangers.
That said, we should indeed be inculcating our children with the emunah, yiras Hashem and simchas hachayim. I personally believe that the root cause of a large part of the problems facing us today is that Judaism has become a mindless lifestyle to many, instead of a set of deeply held ideals. And if one regards Judaism as a lifestyle, can he/she be blamed for wanting to trade it in for an easier one, with less restrictions and duties? We have to bring the intellectual and the emotional parts of Judaism back into play, not just the physical actions. As R’ Wolbe explains in Ali Shor, the physical acts of Yiddishkeit should an outpouring of the convictions of the mind and the feelings of the soul.October 31, 2010 1:58 am at 1:58 am #707385
Just wanted to further explain earlier comment. The Chareidi world has decided that the best and only suitable time for Yiddishkeit is in the 1700’s. That was the ideal time to be a Jew. So they take the approach that we should try to convince bochurim that we really are living in the 1700’s. We dress the same way as then, we avoid studying the science and math of today, we ignore the State of Israel as if it doesn’t exist. We give shiurim in Yiddish which was spoken then. They simply have not been able to come to grips that times have changed.
But many bochurim realize that we are no longer living in 1700’s and they have been given no guidance on how to deal with the issues of today. They are very confused.
The modern also do not have clear ideas on how to avoid the improper parts of today’s culture, and are all too willing to accept everything, rather than to discriminate. Neither the all or nothing approaches are correct. But nobody has really been able to define a livable and halachically correct path. In EY for example, all sports are avoided for the most part. So they have no secular studies in HS, no sports, no realistic prospects of a job, no army, no concerts. This is very hard for bochurim to deal with, when they see these things all around them.
At least in the USA, chareidim have some outlets, but in EY, the problem is much worse. However, in the USA, there are really no uniform rules for Chareidim. People pretty much do as they choose.
There really is a need for gedolim to make realistic rules and give guidance on how one is to live his life in the 21st century. Nobody really knows what is permissible for entertainment, and whether anybody should ever have any entertainment at all, or it is all bitul Torah. It seems like one should try to avoid it if one is able to, but if he is depressed or lonely, than it is a mitzvah to get cheered up. How does sports fit in with Yiddishkeit? Is it Hellenistic and anti-Torah, or is it necessary maintenance of a healthy body. If it is proper and necessary, then why do we not see gedolim playing ball?
There is really much confusion on many issues of how to live a Torah life in modern times, and we are not getting any clear guidance.October 31, 2010 4:42 am at 4:42 am #707386
I finally got around to reading the article the OP references. All I can say is, did the 2 of us read the same article?October 31, 2010 5:02 am at 5:02 am #707387mexipalParticipant
i notice that some of the posters here are quick to blame the gedolim or rebbeim or the system (which many times is a code word for gedolim). it might help to actually turn on the brain and realize that there are countless rebbeim out there who understand kids, the internet, and the times better than half the posters here. gedolim are not ‘backward’, ‘live in the 1700s’, or unrealistic. gedolim know what they are doing and if they feel something is inapprpiate they may have a valid reson whyOctober 31, 2010 5:17 am at 5:17 am #707388OfcourseMember
Its miraculous to want to stay ON THE DERECH, if you have an inquisitive mind and are scolded by Mechanchim with- “Just follow the rules and dont ask so many questions, or you’ll sound like an Apikores”, which is the Lashon commonly employed in most of our Mosdos.October 31, 2010 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #707389World SaverParticipant
While it may be true that we need to emphasize those aspects of yiddishkeit, however, the stories where people actually go off the derech from internet etc., ALWAYS goes back to emotional abuse. This is not reffering to “the system”, but to his specific abusive parent/s. Ask any professional. (In most cases the parents have no idea that they are abusive). Any healthy kid doesn’t just go OTD because he saw images.October 31, 2010 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #707390
Mexipal. Of course “the gedolim” are always right. the problem is, “the gedolim” are not the ones who educate our boys and girls.October 31, 2010 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #707391mw13Participant
World Saver: You are making a massive generalization, saying it is an unarguable fact, and not bringing a shred of evidence to back it up. Besides for the fact that I have personally spoken to people who were addicted to inappropriate images and had serious emunah issues, despite having excellent relationships with their parents.October 31, 2010 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #707392MoqMember
Maybe those of you who know that all of our problems are because of our mosdos should start perfect mosdos?November 6, 2010 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #707393
Moq: Not perfect. Just caring, thinking, and with the right people who are happy with their avodas hakodesh. Maybe take a peek at the Molester thread to see where some things need tweaking.November 6, 2010 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #707394
PIY: If you had aspaklaria hameira, you would be awesome. As is, your pretty sharp and on target.November 7, 2010 12:13 am at 12:13 am #707395Tam Mahu OmerMember
There are those who are tayning that ppl only go off the derech if their parents are abusive. Ershtens, there are abusive rebbeim and friends. But that’s not my point. My point is that that is not true at all. The reason they are mistaken is because kids who make the bechira to do bad things and have bad parents, bechitzoniyus go off the derech. BUt kids who have shalom bayis, money, good plastic relationships with rebbeim and friends, are “good at learning”, live a perfect life in frum society, so why would they openly seperate? BUt who knows what they do when no one’s looking?November 7, 2010 2:38 am at 2:38 am #707396WIYMember
Its hard to have a perfect mosed. Impossible actually but there are certain yeshivos that have learned from the mistakes of the last 20-30 years and are changing the mehalech, hiring younger better more caring Rabbeim, focusing on Hashkafos and caring about the boys and trying to give each kid what he needs. At the same time providing a challenging English department with great to go along with it. I applaud the yeshivah I am currently thinking of and Halevai more yeshivos did the same.November 7, 2010 3:36 am at 3:36 am #707397GuardmytongueMember
I agree that it seems the OP read a different article. It also seems that people (myself formerly included) love the opportunity to blame lousy rebbes for all of the world’s evil. While I agree that many of the kids out there (including kids and siblings of my own) are not resilient enough to withstand some of the stupid comments made to them by educators (or should I say ‘educators’) this was NOT the topic of this thread. People who use the internet and accidentally find themselves looking at porn have a VERY hard time not returning to it. They had no intention of going there and they get drawn in. And as Moq said, the pull is like nothing you know. The late nights staring at the computer are just a hop away, and one kid I worked with was up so late on chats and bad sites he started sleeping through minyan. He felt he probably was just a hypocrite in Gd’s eyes anyway. Unless you know or work with good people who this has happened to (and unfortunately I am in that line of work) you cannot understand. If you are thinking that the whole thing is ridiculous, than you should be thanking Gd because many around you have not been so fortunate. And you didn’t need to be in a bad place or with one foot out the door. Exposure to this type of stuff is addictive. And of the men who are admitted porn addicts, 70% said they were introduced to it online by accident and NOT from looking for it (percentage given at a lecture on addiction)
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