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About a week ago Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, a well regarded MO rabbi from New Jersey, referenced on his site a new study that finds that 50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbos or Kashrus observant within two years of their graduation. This shocking statistic came only a year after another study found that 25% of those graduates who attend secular colleges assimilate during college and completely abandon Torah and mitzvos.
Rabbi Pruzansky advises these families and the parents that to find blame they need to look in the mirror. He mentions activities that contribute to this crisis include talking (socializing) in shul, only going to shul one day a week, not being kovea itim to learn Torah, not having the proper Shabbos atmosphere (discussing sports and having chitchats rather than saying over Divrei Torah and singing Zmiros), and not dressing children in Bigdei Shabbos.
That’s pretty bad. That is approaching the assimilation rate of the conservatives and reform.
Modern Orthodoxy is apikorsus. In other words, the ones who are ‘kashrus and shabbos observant’ are also off the derech.
It’s a little skewed because a lot of the people in these high schools aren’t Shomer Shabbos and Kashrus to begin with. My experience is that not so many have gone off. Unfortunately, I know that my experience has been very lucky and that most of the people I knew from these types of schools were raised properly and very Frum starting out. It is a problem in a lot of places. (I wonder what the rate is for graduates of “Yeshivish” Yeshivos?)
Is there a “Simcha Bunim” Pruzansky to speak about the RW OTD problem?
Scary.
I find that I am exceptionally good at identifying other people’s problems, but not quite as good at identifying my own.
Alot of people who go to MO schools are not religious and in fact many people who go to MO shuls like Young Israels and the like are not reglious either, but they are Pro-relgious. Meaning they like the religion but have limits.
The reason more Charedi dont leave is because they are more forced to stay. If someone wants to leave MO they can do it and there isnt much penalty, however in the Charedi world women are married as teenagers and frequently have children before they are 20 and the men are also married quite young and there are children as well.
When there are spouces and young children its much harder to leave. Also MO families dont usually shun OTD kids where Charedim (especially Chassidic do) so if you leave you are really on your own.
MO’s can also function in regular society so its not so hard to leave, if you are charedi you really cant function too easily and blend it
I was wondering when this would pop up in the CR.
When will the “I told you so’s” start?
From those that I’ve met over the years at a university, they went to “modern orthodox” yeshivas, but weren’t from orthodox homes.
My personal observance and background aside, based on the unbelievably extreme judgement passed on everybody and anybody, by just about everybody and anybody (right, except for you, the guy with his fingers poised on the keyboard to hand me my head because he did not. right. you didn’t. ever.) I’m surprised anyone with a smidgen of self respect would want to be associated with the majority of the crew who comment here.
And just so it’s clear, not one of the people posting here keep all the mitzvot (mitzves, mitzvos, mitzvois, pick your poison. no matter to me). so stop judging. just stop judging. You (except for you, guy ready to go apoplectic) have no idea the damage you are causing to people interested/curious in yiddeshkeit who see the vitriol directed at anyone who is a fraction of a degree off the observance trajectory of any given poster. It’s obscene.
Last I checked commentators in this chat room were not given the keys to assess which are the ‘important’ commandments (see how i avoided the multiple versions? ha) and which are not.
There are people saying that someone with a jewish father may not be Jewish. WHAT? and yet, there is actually a discussion posted on whether white collar crime is ok. (goes to ignorance as well as rudeness, judgment, etc)
And i won’t even get started on the misogyny. Someone is divorced. Whose fault is it? Dumb question, the woman of course!!
wow.
I’ve been reading a lot here. It absolutely turns my stomach.
This may be my one and only post. I had to get it out. This topic seemed apropos.
Go ahead, comment away. I will not be responding. But if one person thinks before spewing his poison, I will have achieved something.
Good night.
chassidishY.U.type -“Modern Orthodoxy is apikorsus.”
Prove it! And btw, why did you go to YU -it’s MO?
Btw, I’m not MO, nor did I learn in any MO Yeshiva/school.
Who did the study? Where is it published? Define “Modern Orthodox”? In many cases, a “modern orthodox” high school is one in which the majority of the families are not strictly Shomer Shabbos and Shomer Kashruth to begin with. If 50% are Shomer Shabbos after high school in spite of 40% of the parents having been Shomer Shabbos, the school is doing quite well.
Was he talking about a school of “penguins” who are considered “modern” by virtue of the fact they celebrate Israeli Independence Day and don’t learn Yiddish? Or was he talking about a school that is serving a wider community and in which only a minority of the familes are frum.
Note that the study with the shocking statistic is unpublished, and Rsbbi Pruzansky won’t reveal its author. There’s a wide range of schools that could be classified as Modern Orthodox. Without knowing more specific information about the schools, it’s hard to evaluate the numbers. As Sam2 points out, in many schools regarded as MO, many of the students aren’t Shomer Shabbos or Kashrus going in.
In no way am I saying there’s not a serious problem here. I’m just frustrated that there isn’t enough information on the study.
Disturbing, but every study needs to be evaluated on its own terms. Many studies are flawed, and don’t accurately reflect reality.
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if many MO teens go off the derech once they go to college. Even the college has a sizable Orthodox community, the anti-religious ideology of many courses and non-Orthodox students will inspire many MO kids to go OTD, no matter how strong their upbringing. The key, I think, is to send them to YU/Stern (or even Touro), where the “normal” thing is to stay on the derech.
Hmmm…why am I not surprised that the first person to (falsely) claim MO is apikorsus is supposedly a “Y.U.” type. Moderators, why do you let such a comment through? Is one of the purposes of the CR to trash any Orthodox Jew who doesn’t fit into your definition of charedi?
B’mechilas R’ Pruzanski,
Be advised, Yiras Shomayim is a noun.
Y’rei Shomayim is the adjective you’re looking for.
Modern Orthodox were never on the derech if someone knows better then not to go against Hashem and he does it anyway then he is off the Derech Hashem.
A modern orthodox person is worse then some1 who is completly off (if they were never on to begin with) bc it seems that modern orthodox ppl know the right things to do and the proper ways to serve Hashem but they choose to live a Modern Orthodox lifestlye as oppose to a regular Orthodox lifestyle they choose to be off the derech knowingly…Hashem should have mercy on the modern orthodox people that know they’re doing wrong and continue living there foolish ways living in denial of true service to Hashem…God willing they will realize that they are fooling no one except themselves and start to serve Hashem properly…
REALIST, is it “my son the medical” or “my son the doctor?”
dolphina
If you had shemiras anayim you wouldn’t have become so mad. And I don’t think you should be judging posters of this hallowed site so viciously. If it doesn’t conform to your taste, lifestyle, then (as Mommy told me) don’t look. You have something against out tireless Mods? They didn’t write anything, like they didn’t pen your vicious attack either. They’re not even “deciding which are the ‘important’ commandments”, maybe you are. Dealing with others civilly (I think) is a mitzvah too.
And no, you and every one else in your category are making the same mistake. No one directs vitriol at anyone who is a fraction… No. And No. It may be the way you feel. But IT’S NOT OUR FEELING. (did I ever say anything bad to you before?)
I welcome you to cool down a bit, sit down to a (virtual) hot coffee in our cozy little coffee-room. Thinkerator may operate better, clearer.
btw I don’t call mitzvhos poison. They’re my conduit of connection and love towards my Creator.
Yes it was a brilliant and revealing article, very scary as well!
However as Sam2 said, the number is extremely high because they are including ALL members of “Yeshiva High Schools” regardless of how that school defines Orthodoxy. Some of these “Orthodox” schools have a school sponsored prom, and many of the kids come from homes that are not keep Shabbos at all anyway. In that case the kids are not “off the derech”, rather simply following the “Derech” of their parents!
That being said, the real number is high enough his article was spot on about the issues and how to solve them
realist – they are both nouns; yiras shamayim is an emotion (fear of Gd), y’rei shamayim is a person (one with fear of Gd). You are correct that y’rei shamayim is more appropriate.
I went to a yeshiva in Israel and most of the kids weren’t religious. It was 80% yeshivsh kids and 20% modern kids. The modern kids who weren’t religious were normal and respectful of the rabbis and Judaism. Most of the yeshivsh kids were totally off(drugs…) and were very disrespectufl to the rabbis. A lot of they guys including myself became more religious as the years went on. However I just want to state they I’d rather my kid be respectful and normal than unhappy and religious.
dolphina! *high five*
re: “It’s a little skewed because a lot of the people in these high schools aren’t Shomer Shabbos and Kashrus to begin with. My experience is that not so many have gone off. Unfortunately, I know that my experience has been very lucky and that most of the people I knew from these types of schools were raised properly and very Frum starting out. It is a problem in a lot of places. (I wonder what the rate is for graduates of “Yeshivish” Yeshivos?)”
Sam2, I agree! But I think its more than a little skewed.
A college grad can choose one of three levels of religious practice- the same level of religiosity that they were brought up in, less religious than they were brought up in, and more religious than they were brought up in.
Due to my connection to singles of Modern Orthodox background, I see so many YU/Sterns grads going to the right of their parents, just the opposite, that this all just doesnt ring true!
I read profiles daily of girls whose mothers dont cover their hair and had TV’s and went to movies, and these girls want to cover their hair and not have a TV or go to movies, and guys wanting the same, to move to the right religiously of their parents in their married lives.
Whether they are pursuing advanced secular degrees or are living the Kollel life, they are so genuine. I dont get the feeling the people I deal with are the exception to the rule. They have totally different mindsets and goals. I read inspirational profiles every single day.
Not only that, just for an example, by and large, when a YU/Sterns couple decide to live the Kollel life, no one stipulates that they need parental help. They do it on their own, whether either or both husband and wife already have high paying jobs, or are just en route to the high paying jobs, after the Kollel period. They are truly Mistapek b’Muat. No need for fancy furniture, cars, sheitels, clothing, etc. By and large, materialism is looked down at rather than looked up to! I find the YU Sterns crowd more genuine Ovdai Hashem than those from Yeshivish communities. I know lots of people of all ages from all frumkeit levels and this is what I feel. Modern Orthodox definitions of true frumkeit are remarkably genuine and probably closer to the original Talmidim of R’ Aron Kotler’s era. Im very very impressed.
The OTD type profiles I read, where you see the religious observance lessening after high school and college, are not the Modern Orthodox crowd at all. Use your imaginations.
dhl: Care to define this “Modern Orthodoxy” that you’re so strongly railing against.
50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat or Kashrut observant
That implies that they once were Shabbat and Kashrut observant, unlike the theories put forth by some posters here.
However, this study, even if true, does not disprove, in any way, the validity of Modern Orthodoxy as a legitimate path towards avodas Hashem. Modern Orthodoxy, widely considered less stringent than “right wing Orthodoxy”, might very well simply be more appealing to those who tend towards lesser observance.
In other words, what hasn’t been demonstrated is what is the cause and what is the effect.
I personally do not agree with many of the ideals espoused in the name of Modern Orthodoxy, but this study, if true, would still not support my opinions.
dolphina -“My personal observance and background aside”
Before you come and start criticizing e/o here, how about telling us about your observance? Are you a Jew in heart only? Do you keep Shabbos and/or Kashrus? Did you go OTD and who do you blame for that -all of us? I got news for you, it’s not Frum people’s job to make everybody Frum, but it is their job to speak the truth. So if the poster posts the truth and for whatever reason this ruffles someone’s feathers – well too bad.
This doesn’t mean that if a guy is in Kiruv he shouldn’t have any sensitivity, but posting here isn’t the same thing.
If it’s M, it ain’t O. If it’s U, it ain’t Y. If it ain’t D, it’s OTD.
Dolphina – “And just so it’s clear, not one of the people posting here keep all the mitzvot.” That is negative judgment at its finest. Unlike much of the (admittedly often wrong) judgment of ACTIONS one may see here, you are judging PEOPLE. The Torah perspective on people is al tadin es chaveircha ad shetagia limkomo and havei dan es kol adam lekaf z’chus (don’t judge another til you walk in their shoes/ judge people favorably).
Actions are either right or wrong and the Torah requires that we know which are which (ubacharta bachaim – you must choose life).
P.S. As to the matter of clearly settled jewish law that the privileges and responsibilities of being jewish are only passed on through the mother, is that misogyny too?
I told you so.
DaasYochid: I don’t know whether this study alone in isolation disproves Modern Orthodoxy as a valid path, but it has been stated as being an invalid path by many of the gedolei yisroel.
So maybe we can all take advice from Rabbi Pruzansky’s article, no matter what letters you use to describe your frumkeit. Yeshivish and chassidish groups have an OTD problem, too, no matter how the statistics are different. Rabbi Pruzansky has asked for sincerity in several key mitzvos – would we not all benefit from focusing more on these? Our children certainly would!
Dolphina – I respect your right to your opinions. However one statement you made prompts me to respond as it is not a matter of opinion – it is a matter of fact.
A child with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother is not Jewish according to Halachah. Fact. It may seem unfair but it’s just the way it is.
G-d made the world so He gets to make its rules too. There are other rules He made that may seem unfair like certain rules of physics e.g. the fact that a speeding bullet is able to kill an innocent person
I agree with what was posted already – many MO schools accept students who aren’t really frum. They’re not “going off”, they’re just keeping to the path they were already on.
There are people who go off from all backgrounds. I recently heard from someone about a girl who graduated from a Beis Yaakov who got engaged – to another girl. Apparently this class had about half the girl “go off”. Some found their way back, others didn’t.
In the yeshivas I went to (all respected yeshivish places), I know a number of boys who “went off”. I honestly don’t know if they’ve found their way back or not.
This issue is not limited to one group. It happens everywhere.
I had a conversation with my Rav last week about different groups. He hates the whole idea. He says, “Just try to be the best Jew that you can be. Do what Hashem wants according to what you’ve been taught. If that’s considered MO, chareidi, chassidish, or something else, it doesn’t matter. Just keep the mitzvos, and you’re fine. Don’t put anyone into groups. We’re all Jews.”
Just a point of fact, the head of Ramaz (a VERY MO school) contacted Rabbi Pruzansky to discuss the report. Rabbi Pruzansky admitted that he never actually read such a report, but rather heard about a report. We know nothing of who conducted the survey; how it was conducted; who were the respondents, how large the sample was, what questions were asked or what definitions were used.
It might have been enough info for the rabbi to give mussar to his shul, but certainly not enough for us to pass judgement on an entire group of frum yidden.
What is really scary is that I didn’t see people say “Menachem, that is terrible”. Rather a bunch if people getting all defensive and for the most part making illogical defensive comments.
How is that going to help the situation?
However, this study, even if true, does not disprove, in any way, the validity of Modern Orthodoxy as a legitimate path towards avodas Hashem. Modern Orthodoxy, widely considered less stringent than “right wing Orthodoxy”, might very well simply be more appealing to those who tend towards lesser observance.
This is a good point regarding self-selection.
Not only that, just for an example, by and large, when a YU/Sterns couple decide to live the Kollel life, no one stipulates that they need parental help. They do it on their own, whether either or both husband and wife already have high paying jobs, or are just en route to the high paying jobs, after the Kollel period. They are truly Mistapek b’Muat. No need for fancy furniture, cars, sheitels, clothing, etc. By and large, materialism is looked down at rather than looked up to! I find the YU Sterns crowd more genuine Ovdai Hashem than those from Yeshivish communities. I know lots of people of all ages from all frumkeit levels and this is what I feel. Modern Orthodox definitions of true frumkeit are remarkably genuine and probably closer to the original Talmidim of R’ Aron Kotler’s era. Im very very impressed.
This is what I have seen as well.
Rav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L, in Mishnas Rabi Aharon (Vol. 3, Hesped on the Brisker Rav) states that the essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative. That is, change Judaism into something that more people will be willing to accept.
I think it has finally happened. This is the most offensive thread I have ever seen. No wonder why so many people go OTD. Calling MO people apikorus? Let me tell you a little bit about me. I grew up MO. Both of my parents are Baal teshuvas. Their parents never kept shabbos, kosher, taharas hamishpacha, etc. my parents both were never surrounded by yiddishkeit except when they would go to ” synogogue” for rosh hashana and Yom Kippur. Somehow in spite of all this, both of my parents found modern orthodoxy, bH! Through friends, class mates, the local orthodox Shuls in their respective neighborhoods, my parents slowly but surely became more religious and eventually found each other. I was raised modern orthodox, I kept shabbos 100% I kept kosher 100%, yes I wore pants but I was not allowed to wear a lot of the things that my friends wore. My faster had an idea of Tsnius, maybe it’s not what I call Tsnius now but it was in my fathers yes then. I went to shul every shabbos, I led groups and I Davened. ( unlike many of my more yeshivish friends now who I know hated shul and just slept all day). Eventually I became more “frum” left my secular college and went to Stern. I’m married bH with a child bH, live a frum happy life, I am blessed. But it hurts my heart literally when I read some of these comments! I definitely would not be who I am if it wasn’t for my apikorsus parents. My sister btw who is a good deal younger then me wear her jeans, goes to a co-Ed school, and she wants to be just like me. She doesn’t, along with my parents, hate that I took my orthodoxy farther, they are proud of me. My mother makes sure to say her brachas out loud around my son so he will learn the proper way to eat. My father still learns every single day. He has never missed a day of Tefilin since he was 22 years old, save the day after his heart surgery. My point is.. MO people are still Hashems children. Treat them as you would treat your yeshivish neighbor. They love Hashem to. They may not keep all of the same Mitzvos as you, but they do what they think is right. Please stop judging them so harshly.
To quote the original article:
that 50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat or Kashrut observant within two years of their graduation.
This does not shock me in the slightest. I imagine most “graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools” are only there in the first place as a private “prep” school (which is what we see in areas like Teaneck, and schools like RAMAZ) with some “Jewishness” mixed in to make it socially acceptable. Many of those never see their parents doing anything Jewish except to light the Menorah (with bulbs). That is what you get for being a prep school instead of a yeshiva (as well as why tuition is so much higher in these areas).
V’Haryah, Mrs. Trump (whose children would need to be M’Gayer, IMHO).
Modern Orthodox were never on the derech if someone knows better then not to go against Hashem and he does it anyway then he is off the Derech Hashem.
A modern orthodox person is worse then some1 who is completly off (if they were never on to begin with) bc it seems that modern orthodox ppl know the right things to do and the proper ways to serve Hashem but they choose to live a Modern Orthodox lifestlye as oppose to a regular Orthodox lifestyle they choose to be off the derech knowingly…Hashem should have mercy on the modern orthodox people that know they’re doing wrong and continue living there foolish ways living in denial of true service to Hashem…God willing they will realize that they are fooling no one except themselves and start to serve Hashem properly.
Transport back in time 250 years and the Vilna Gaon said the same thing about Chassidism
Uhhh. Zees, Dolphina meant “poison” about the spelling. Like people would automaticaly make a judgement about you if you spelled it Mitzvot (MO) or mitzvis (Frummy) or mitzvois (super BP frummy) Not that mitzvot are poison.
Health – it’s not the “frum” world’s job to speak the “truth”. Even if it was, there are ways to do so.
Just imagine if a Jew regardless of affiliation came on this website and read the CR, he’d probably run to the nearest church and baptize himself.
Now you might tell me that posting here is “different” but in the “True Frum” world you speak of, we are supposed to act the same way in private as we do in public. Hashem is always watching us, whether it’s via blogging or anywhere else.
A) Why don’t you start for us and define the word “Frum”
B) Your “truth” is most probably your opinion
C) The Modern Orthodoxy this article is discussing, clearly isn’t the Modern Orthodoxy that was drawn up and envisioned by Rav Soloveitchik z’tl many years ago. The people off the Derech in this article are simply “modern”, they have very little Orthodoxy in their life.
The fact that they buy Challas for Shabbos or sit in the back of Shul on Shabbos and talk does not make them Orthodox nor does it reflect on the “Torah U Madda” Values that many Modern Orthodox Jews take very seriously and live by.
For some clown to come here and blog that MO is apikorsus,takes a lot of nerve, reflects complete ignorance and is probably violating a few Issurim on the way as well.
I can say this much for sure – a Modern Orthodox person is not wasting his time with pure Batala in the CR!
“Studies”, especially those without clearly defined origin and authorship, hold as much weight with me as polls predicting who will win on November 6. This is not the time to get all judgmental (and worse) with a large segment of our community. We need each other more than ever, it seems to me.
When you need guidance in halacha or hashkafa, consult a Rav who follows your derech, be it yeshivish, chassidish, MO’ish, or whatever you prefer. But the rest of the day, keep the studies to yourself, and remember how Hillel defined the Torah al regel achas.
Sam: Are you implying that there is no definition of “modern orthodox”? I ask because, primarily, it is the modern orthodox themselves who self-define themselves with that classification.
Health – FYI, calling MO “apikorsus” is not speaking any sort of truth.
There are people saying that someone with a jewish father may not be Jewish. WHAT?
You lost a lot of credibility with that statement. Being Jewish is not a “feel-good” thing. A person from a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is not Jewish, no matter how (s)he may feel about it. Such a person, who cares about following the Mitzvos and would like to convert, would be welcomed with open arms. But Halacha is non-negotiable, no matter how politically incorrect it may be.
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