October 17, 2017 7:14 am at 7:14 am #1382735
When i was a child in GG shoe confiscation was used as a form of quasi corporal punishment. The menahel used it for many many things, including latecoming, dress code violations, chutza and fighting. The basic school policy was that all children need to leave the building for recess. [the times it happened to me were always raining so i got away with that one.] Is it a fair punishment?October 17, 2017 8:41 am at 8:41 am #1382755
Very fair.October 17, 2017 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1382758
The very concept of punishment in yeshivos evokes feelings of disgust and dread. It is alarming that there are typically pages and pages of written (or unwritten) policy about how to punish, while rewards or individual attention to assist and guide are last on the list. This is not how Gedolei Yisroel address the subject of chinuch. There are a few shelves of seforim on the subject, all derived from Torah sources only, and NONE of them advance the approach of bullying kids into compliance. Before anyone attacks me with the posuk of חושך שבטו, I ask that these seforim are consulted first. I am far more comfortable with taking a strong stand against the stupid, rejecting practices of today’s generation (all the menahalim that advocate this) than the Gedolei Yisroel who openly spoke against it.
Just a few references from seforim that are contemporary. There are seforim on chinuch from Rav Yitzchol Zilberstein shlit”a, Rav Aharon Friedman shlit”a, the Nesivos Sholom ZT”L, Rav Shlomo Brevda ZT”L, and countless other seforim of likutim from generations of Gedolei Yisroel. After perusing these, comment to challenge me.
I don’t know about the shoe thing, but the attitude towards talmidim is stinky, and speaks volumes about the general approach to chinuch.October 17, 2017 10:45 am at 10:45 am #1382772
From Tanach through Shulchan Aruch and on, the Seforim say a component of chinuch is corporal punishment.October 17, 2017 10:46 am at 10:46 am #1382811
“By us in golders Green the PH school had a much better and simpler idea. they would confiscate shoes for a school day.
it wasnt unpleasant to administer, caused no long term harm, was a brilliant deterrent, and a child without whoes is unlikely to pick a fight or leave school gorunds without permision.”October 17, 2017 10:46 am at 10:46 am #1382862
the punishment was that the child had to go out to recess without shoes?October 17, 2017 10:48 am at 10:48 am #1382870October 17, 2017 10:50 am at 10:50 am #1382905October 17, 2017 10:50 am at 10:50 am #1382889October 17, 2017 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1382931October 17, 2017 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1382933
And these abusive schools have no shame shnorring from you later on when your on your ownOctober 17, 2017 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1382946
I am not going to discuss if he Halcha allows it or not, However shaming someone like that is not likely to give people a positive feeling towards yiddishkeit and children subject to this punishment might leave.October 17, 2017 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1382945October 17, 2017 11:19 am at 11:19 am #1382874
What a child wears is the parents decision. For the school to involve itself with the clothing or footwear is overstepping boundaries.
There are two exceptions:
If the school has rules about clothing, i.e. uniform, sports shoes for sports, etc… then obviously they should enforce them – without humiliating the child.
If a child misuses an item of clothing or footwear, say he throws his shoe(s) at a teacher or classmate, then obviously it is the educators right to proceed as they see fit.
Confiscating footwear if a child comes late to school is definitely overstepping boundaries. The punishment is also out of proportion and unreasonable.
If you really want to use this as a way to get child out of bed, I would suggest parking your car within ten metres of your front door, and at whatever time that you are supposed to leave for school taking their shoes out to the car.
Always remember, a child’s ego is very fragile, and humiliating them in public is never a good idea.October 17, 2017 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #1383038
TLIK, you paint with far too broad a brush.
Also, your reference to “today’s generation” is surprising, since, as a rule, today’s Mechanchim are very warm and encouraging (If anything, the culture of prizes and rewards has gone too far, but that’s another discussion). In general, today’s Mechanchim are trained to minimize punitive measures, and, when they are necessary, to implement them in a way which does not jeopardize their relationship with their students.October 17, 2017 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1383748
You’re trolling. You are absolutely not speaking from a position of knowledge. חושך שבטו is the basis for any discussion about corporal punishment. That is a posuk in Mishlei. Can you finish that posuk without looking it up? Most mechanchim and menahalim can’t either. Let’s just stare at this first half of the posuk for a moment. Does it suggest hitting? That, my friend, is actually מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה. It refers to the “shevet” as a last resort, never a לכתחלה. Next, your reference to Tanach and Talmud are similarly inaccurate. Moreover, the purpose of any form of discipline is to teach, never to punish. Do these forms of discipline work to engage the talmid or do they reject? Today, the metziyus is that they reject. And our leaders for the past several generations have stated so consistently. The Brisker Rov stated that the first potch can be permitted under only very limited specific circumstances. The second potch is categorically ossur, as it is חובל בחבירו. The rage of the rebbe is not an excuse at all. The first potch can never be delivered out of anger.
Next – humiliation is NEVER permitted as a form of discipline. It crushes; it does not teach. No rebbe is hired to crush talmidim. If a yeshiva were to hire a rebbe to crush talmidim, I would make that public so quickly that it would need to close down. Have you ever met a rebbe that apologized to a talmid for shaming him? It might happen, but far less than 50% of the time. That is a black eye for chinuch, that has become numb to the dignity of the talmidim. Oh, you may ask, why should a rebbe respect a talmid? Isn’t the direction of respect from talmid to rebbe? If you don’t mind discovering the stupidity of this question, just cruise on over to Pirkei Avos 4:12.
Lastly, what makes punishment unreasonable is not the magnitude of it, but whether it teaches or punishes. Punishment has no place in chinuch. That is reserved for a court, where there is a prosecution and a defense, with an unbiased psak. Consequences in yeshiva MUST be educational to fill the mandate of the yeshiva. Otherwise, it borders on רשעות and is good reason why the menahalim of such institutions should change to another career. Any form of punishment is not part of chinuch, but of control. What is the true mission?October 17, 2017 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1383142
Taking shoes is worse than hitting.October 17, 2017 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1383923
“is it fair”
If it applied equally to all, it is fair. Rather, you should ask; is it appropriate.October 17, 2017 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1383968
TLIK, you’ve made it abundantly clear over the years with your numerous comments on this issue that you posses a visceral animosity towards mechanchim, menahalim and yeshivos in general. And to put the cherry on the top you always attribute your personal opinions to anonymous rabbonim who you refuse to name and nameless seforim you cannot cite.October 17, 2017 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1384195
You want citations. Here you have them. And I do not have animosity towards yeshivos. I just wish they would do their job.
שכר והענשה בחינוך – הרב מאיר מונק – בני ברק תשמ”ה
ארחות אהרן – משנת החינוך – הרב אהרן מפינסק קרלין – ירושלים תשס”ח
זריעה ובנין בחינוך – הרב שלמה וולבה – ירושלים תשנ”ו
כבדהו וחנכהו – הרב אהרן פריעדמאן – ירושלים תשס”ב
לחנך בשמחה – הרב יצחק זילברשטיין – בני ברק תשע”ד
טיב החינוך – הרב גמליאל רבינוביץ – ירושלים תשע”ב
מסורת החינוך – הרב אלעזר מנחם מן שך – בני ברק תשס”ה
חנוך לנער – הרב יוסף מגיד – א”י תשע”ה
מלאכת ה’ על הלכות מלמדים – הרב ישראל יוסף ברונשטיין – ירושלים תשס”א
נתיבות שלום – אדמו”ר מסלונים – ירושלים תשנ”א
החינוך המיוחד בראי היהדות – הרב יואל שווארץ – ירושלים תשנ”ו
מעדני המלך – הרב עובדיה יוסף – א”י תשע”ו
לחנך – הרב אליהו שלום ברקוביץ – א”י תשע”ב
There are also quite a few seforim that are ליקוטים in which there are countless quotes from many of the Gedolei Yisroel of recent generations. This short list here is not a library collection that is simply copied and pasted here. It is a sampling of the seforim that I have used, mostly cover to cover, and have reached opinions based on the guidance of these holy resources. If you have some to share that “compete”, and brandish the whip as an essential part of chinuch, please share, and we can volley some educated dialogue. In any case, forms of chinuch that are not effective, regardless of what it says in any seforim, become problematic. Shlomo Hamelech gave perfect direction in telling us חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. This can mean many things. Without doubt, if a child is not amenable to accept the “chinuch” of the potch (or other form of discipline), then it is not chinuch for this child and should not be administered. What works is determned by how the child accepts it, not how the mechanech prefers to deliver it.October 17, 2017 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1384513
TLIK: I have looked in Mishlei and cannot find the words מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה. Please point me to perek and passuk.October 17, 2017 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1384260
TLIK: I was always taught that it was the passuk in Mishlei 13:24 that speaks about corporal punishment: חוֹשֵֹ֣ךְ שִׁ֖בְטוֹ שׂוֹנֵ֣א בְנ֑וֹ וְ֜אֹהֲב֗וֹ שִֽׁחֲר֥וֹ מוּסָֽר: He who holds back his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him early.
Notice that “חושך שבטו” is the BEGINNING of the passuk.October 17, 2017 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1384740
Mishlei does not say מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה. That is a mishna in Pirkei Avos 3:14. My statement is that Shlomo Hamelech gave us the guidance, and the clear translation is not to make the “shevet” the לכתחלה of chinuch. Rather, its complete absence is the problem. He did clearly guide us to use mussar – direction.
I urge you to examine what our Baalei Mussar said in interpreting this posuk in the practical manner of its implementation. You may refer to any of the above references in my later comment. There is also a wonderful sefer that I omitted from the list: שלום בניך – הרב דוד לוי – ירושלים תשס”ז.
Lastly, שחרו מוסר might refer to awakening him with mussar, not necessarily about early.October 17, 2017 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1384825
tlik: If you notice I didn’t question what you said or your interpretations of the seforim you mentioned above. I misread what you wrote which was “חושך שבטו is the basis for any discussion about corporal punishment. That is a posuk in Mishlei. Can you finish that posuk without looking it up? Most mechanchim and menahalim can’t either. Let’s just stare at this first half of the posuk for a moment. Does it suggest hitting? That, my friend, is actually מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה.” I didn’t realize you were now quoting from Pirkei Avos.November 5, 2017 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1395859
A pashute yid
The default punishment was that the shoes were taken at the beginning of the school day and returned at the end.
The school day included numerous recesses which boys were expected to leave the building, at the end of every recess a bell rang and there was a line up outside the main door with register and various anouncements, a couple of times a week the day included a sorts session ….
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