October 28, 2012 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #901664HealthParticipant
Sam2 -“Health: I don’t think so. I think everyone agrees that not Derech Chibah is Muttar Lechatchilah (see Kesuvos 17a). The only issue is whether not Derech Chibah can actually exist in a practicaly, everyday situation.”
Well then, if I’m not right explain to me why they hold Assur.
I posted above, I don’t even agree with Rav Shacter that by a pretty woman that it’s Assur. I hold handshaking for business purposes is Not Derech Chiba, period -no exceptions. What I hold is Assur is some people shaking e/o’s hands after Shul on Shabbos, whether they are the same or different genders.October 28, 2012 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #901665avhabenParticipant
Health: When did you become a posek?October 28, 2012 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #901666oomisParticipant
Whatever one holds (no pun intended) regarding negiyah, it makes NO difference if the woman is pretty or plain, fat, thin, tall, short, blonde, brunette, or redhead. If something is assur, it is assur, not assur EXCEPT when the woman is unattractive.
Attractiveness is very subjective, and there are some very plain-looking people who are extremely attractive to SOMEONE. Just look at a lot of the shidduchim you see randomly. You might wonder what any of them saw in each other. That is the beauty of Hashem, who enables zivugim to find each other, even when others might not “get” the attraction. It is for that reason that we cannot rationalize that it is not oveir negiyah if the woman is not so pretty(maybe the McDonald’s cheesebruger wasn’t so treif, if I didn’t enjoy it). There are plenty of men who might not find a woman attractive, but still might have improprer thoughts if they came into physical contact with her (And maybe even if they did not actually come into contact, who is to say?).
Whatever we do, we make a conscious choice to follow or not to follow what the halacha is and cannot rationalize our actions away, but need to be hoenst with ourselves.October 28, 2012 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #901667MediumThinkerMember
The rabbonim in Germany had the minhag to “shake e/o’s hands after Shul on Shabbos”. As such, I would advise everyone to ask their Rav and not pasken based on Health’s “feelings”.October 29, 2012 4:51 am at 4:51 am #901668aurora77Participant
Hello shoe store assistant,
Your love of all things shoes cracks me up! Sometime perhaps in your commentary on a thread you can find a way to describe how you came to develop your singular obsession…was there a life-changing childhood moment involving footwear? I am very serious — I like to understand how people come to develop their distinctive areas of interest.October 29, 2012 5:08 am at 5:08 am #901669HealthParticipant
MediumThinker -“Health -The rabbonim in Germany had the minhag to “shake e/o’s hands after Shul on Shabbos”. As such, I would advise everyone to ask their Rav and not pasken based on Health’s “feelings”.”
Well it isn’t just my feelings, it seems even Germans hold this way. A quote from ROB.
“rabbiofberlin – I do know that R”Moshe ztl has a couple of teshuvos on this and he is certainly not intimating the same thing. He quotes the minhag of Rabbonim in Germany that did shake hands and , although he writes “koshe lehattir”- it is difficult to be “meikel’, etc.”October 29, 2012 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #901670MediumThinkerMember
So you are bringinga proof to me that the rabbonim held that way? Or are you saying we should listen to Rav Moshe’s psak, not Health’s?
I’m kind of confused, because your tone insinuates that you are disagreeing with me, but the substance seems to be in concurrence with me.October 30, 2012 8:02 am at 8:02 am #901671Shoe store assistantMember
Aurora, there was a very traumatising event in my childhood hwich i describe in the confiscating shoes thread, so it is very ironic that i ended up un in a shoe shop.
I suggest you work in a shoe shop for two weeks, especially for frum teenagers, i assure you that will always notice what shoes everyone is wearing.October 31, 2012 3:18 am at 3:18 am #901673WiseyParticipant
Once I gave in and shook a women’s hand but all I could think about was “OY how can I be doing such a thing.”
Does that mean it would become muttar irrelevant of attractiveness?October 31, 2012 3:41 am at 3:41 am #901674aurora77Participant
Hello shoe store assistant,
I am so sorry to hear that! I didn’t realize that — I will have to read about it on the other thread…
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