- This topic has 159 replies, 53 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Oomis1105, we go with the explanation of Chazal. The posuk, I brought, forbids negia derech ta’ava according to them. What Bp27 meant was that it is an unquestioned Halocha.
ItcheSrulik, you are wrong. Most Rishonim hold it is min’Torah, and so we pasken. (And it is ossur to all arayos.)
MDD,
You said,
“it says in the parsha of arayos:”velo sikarvu legalos erva…”.”
Right but isn’t that talking about the Aryaos mentioned in “the Parsha of aryaos”? I dont think Niddah is one of them.
Furthermore I don’t think that anyone argues that the “Harchakos” (like not touching eachother) that a married couple observes are only D’robonnon.
Why would not touching a niddah you are not married too be an issur Doraisa- not to mention “Yahrog va’al yaavor”?
Exlakewooder: Touching isn’t a Harchakah. It’s a Din D’oraisa. And whether a Niddah is an Ervah or not is a Machlokes between the Rambam and Tosfos. The Shulchan Aruch Paskens like the Rambam that it is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.
(In the example someone gave above the girl would not be required to be killed since that wouldn’t be Derech Chibah. Also, I think if the Shaila was ever asked L’ma’aseh that many, many Poskim would be willing to be Somech on Tosfos for the person to not allow themselves to be killed.)
Hugging is derech chiba.
Csar: I really don’t want to debate what is Derech Chibah and what isn’t. Yes, hugging is almost always Derech Chibah. In your scenario, unless the guy was dating her or something like that, it would probably fall under the tiny percentage of times when a hug is not Derech Chibah.
Sam2
1.) The possuk of “Vlo Sikrivu” is part of and talking about specific ervos mentioned in the “parsha of arayos”
2.) Touching your wife who is a Nida is a “Harchaka” being Boel her is a Deoraisa.
So again,
If the whole reason why it is ossur to touch a Pnuyah is because she may be a Niddah how could it possibly be more then a Drbonnon (let alone Yiharog Vlo Yaavor) to touch her, if touching a Niddah is only Ossur Drobonon?
If a goy put a gun to your head — even if you were a single girl — and said hug that man, you would have to let him kill you rather than hug that man. “
Really? A SINGLE girl???? Honestly, I doubt many unmarried girls or their fathers today would agree that hugging is the same level of issur as the type of arayos that most people interpret as yehareig v’al ya’avor. And she would be an anusah in any case. If she were a married woman, I would think the halacha is much clearer in the issur, and I still tend to doubt that those women would die rather than hug a man, when it is against their will. The Torah is talking about deliberate arayos, not something done against someone’s will. One should die rather than commit adultery or incest. She does not have to die to avoid being raped. Someone who has relations with an UNMARRIED woman, while certainly lewd and licentious in that behavior, has not committed a capital offense. Re-read the Torah.
Oomis: Yeheirag v’al yaavor exactly means one must be ready to be killed even if they are an anusa.
Sam: The Chazon Ish and the Steipler says shaking a woman’s hand for business is yeheirag v’al yaavor. Rav Moshe has multiple teshuvos saying it is assur to shake a woman’s hand in business. The case I presented is certainly worse than shaking a woman’s hand.
Exlakewooder: I’ll repeat what I said, but I’ll break it down and be clearer because I don’t think I said it over properly last time. At least, I could have made it easier to understand.
1) Correct. There is a Machlokes between the Rambam and Tosfos as to whether or not a Niddah is included in that category. Tosfos says no. The Rambam says yes. We Pasken like the Rambam. There is no distinction whatsoever between someone whose wife is a Niddah and someone who is with an unmarried Niddah in this regard.
2) Touching is not a Harchaka. Harchakos are not handing her/passing her things, not sharing a plate, etc. According to all Rishonim (except for one opinion quoted but not ultimately accepted by the Ramban), Negiyah with any Ervah, be it your wife who is a Niddah or any other married woman-with the exception of one’s mother (and somehow the Minhag is to be Meikil by sisters V’tzarich Iyun Bazeh)-is it’s own separate Lav. Thus, since it’s a Lav which is part of the Issur Arayos, we Pasken that it’s Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. Thus, this is not a Harchakah, but a real Issur that applies to all Arayos. So, whether this Issur applies to one’s wife while she is a Niddah (or to any unmarried Niddah), once again goes back to our Machlokes between the Rambam and Tosfos. We Pasken like the Rambam.
Csar: I said I won’t debate what’s Derech Chibah or not, because Derech Chibah is inherently very subjective. In general, we assume that almost everything is Derech Chibah. When it comes down to particulars, that is for a qualified Rav to judge in each case.
When there is a gun to your head there is no time to go call a rov.
Csar: So it’s nice to know that you think that your shoulders are broad enough to hold up a life-or-death Shaila.
The Chazon Ish and the Steipler have broad enough shoulders.
Sam2: Once again, it’s nice to know that you think that you can apply anything in a life-or-death Shaila. I’ll happily say that Shomer Negiyah is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor and there are many obvious cases where I’d Pasken that way if I was literally the only person available to Pasken such a thing. I’d never have the guts to think I can Pasken a particular life-and-death case though.
Oomis1105, with all due respect, do not tell people like Sam2 to go re-read the Torah — he is at least somewhat of a Talmid Chochom, and you are not.
The reason why a woman is not obligated to be killed to avoid being raped(chas^ve’sholom) is because she is considered to be an inactive participant. If someone puts a gun to her head and tells her to go do an active act of gilui arayos or negia, she is obligated to be shot and not do it.
Also, negia is not a capital offence, but it is yehareg ve’lo’ yaavor. It is a clear din in Gemora and Shulchan Aruch.
The Chazon Ish stated [re: a man shaking a woman’s hand who is not his spouse, his mother, his daughter, or his granddaughter] [p.p. 130-131])
A Yeshiva student from England refused to shake hands with his step-mother when greeting her. His father was extremely upset with his refusal. He demanded his son display “derech eretz” towards his step-mother and shake her hand. The son refused stating he was taught it was impermissable with a non close blood relative. This affected the fathers relationship with the son. Some family members told the son to give in al sholom bayis. The son asked a shaila from the Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish responded with a short and sharp answer – “Chok V’lo Yaavor, Issur Gamur” (It is a prohibition that one dare not violate; It is absolutely forbidden,) Violating this halacha was out of the question despite sholom bayis and kibud av. (Oz Vehadar, p. 494).
I assume that in general it would not be derech chibah for the person who has the gun to their head. Which would make their act an act of lifnei iver, not ervah. I think that yehareg v’al ya’avor in this case is theoretical, or referring to a different scenario (such as the case at the end of Ben Sorer).
Mdd: Well, not so clear anywhere in the Gemara. (Not that I know of, at least; if you have a Gemara that clearly says it, by all means please share it. And no, the Gemara in Sanhedrin around 38b is not clear like that.) But definitely B’feirush in the Shulchan Aruch.
MDD:
Yehareig,v’al yaavor aveiros ARE capital offenses, if the price for committing them is Misa. That is what a capital crime is. The three Cardinal Sins are not the only ones that are capital, but they certainly are capital. Negiah is not necessarily capital. Giluy Arayos is. And you are right, I am not Talmid Chochom. I never claimed to be. I do however, not subscribe to the reactions that some people demonstrate in certain very over the top remarks that they make, when equating certain assur things with other assur things that are unquestionably far more serious. A gonif who steals a loaf of bread because he is hungry, is not the same as a gonif who steals so that he won’t become hungry. but they are both ganovim. A single girl with a gun to her head who is ordered to hug a man, is not the same thing as a married woman in the same circumstance. According to the Torah, the man who seduces an unmarried girl, is supposed to marry her without being able to divorce her. The same man who seduces a married woman, both are chayav misah. It is wrong IMO, to try to equate the two, and it diminishes the strength of the argument when that is done. Arayos are assur, no question about that. Not all people agree that certain forms of negiah are equal to arayos. That is all that I am saying.
I agree with you that sometimes some people exagerate, and it is wrong. Having said that, in this case it is not an exageration — it is a halocha in Shulchan Aruch. What’s the p’shat? The explanation is as follows: doing negia with an erva makes a terrible stain on a Yid’s neshomah. So HaShem would rather he die then do it. Post factum,, it is not so terrible that a sanhedrin would be obligated to go after him and execute him.
Oomis,
The missing piece of the puzzle is that the Chiyuv to die is not directly connected to the punishment. According to the Rambam, if the person succumbs to fear and transgresses the Aveira he is considered an Oness and doesn’t get punished. Nevertheless, he was supposed to get killed rather than transgress.
The Halacha is that in these Aveiros, the branches of the Aveira are included in the Chiyuv.
Another thing is that you are mixing the concept of Oness and Mefuta in the case of a Naara Tehora with Nida, who’s marrital status doesn’t play a role.
point taken but the four things i mentioned are all tznius related
and seriously why doesnt everyone know about that halacha
Oomis: The pros here know what they’re talking about. It is not for a woman (for all I know you have not yet even mastered Shas), to tell Talmedei Chachomim in a Torah argument to “Re-read the Torah”. They likely have read it numerous times although it’s irrelevant – we don’t pasken from the chumash, neither from the Mishna. Furthermore, emotions, feelings also play no role in Toras HaShem. These outstanding Torah Scholars are discussing Torah and Torah concepts here, Geonim Rishonim and Acharonim it’s not something I bud in to. When it comes to Torah discussions I bow out with humble awed reverence, I leave the floor to the pros, and look on from a respectful distance.
Sam2, off-hand, look at the last omud in Ben Soreir u’Moire.
Menucha12, it is already a Jewish history question. It is mainly because of the loss of observance and Torah knowledge in early years in America.
SHOMER NIGIA???
HOW CAN I GIVE A DONATION TO SUCH A GREAT CAUSE?
Best Regards,
Mdd: My bad, that’s the Gemara I was referring to earlier. (I’m terrible with Daf numbers; they all always get jumbled in my head. So what’s Sanhedrin 38 or 39? Is that what happened to Adam Harishon on the first day?) It’s not clear about anything because according to one Ika D’amri there it had to be a Hora’as Sha’ah L’migdar Milsa.
mdd: Several of the things Menucha mentioned were problems in parts of Europe as well.
What about the fact that there is no Tumah (besides the inherent tumah associated with them) by non jews, which means that a non-jewish woman can not become a Niddah, taking away any possibility of her being an Ervah?
OP, next time you have a question, you are much better off asking a Rabbi for the simple reason that the posters here tend to exaggerate and often type before they think. Speak to someone who knows you and your situation, and don’t worry – next time you meet the CEO of Yahoo!, if she sticks her hand out for you to shake it and you take it, you will not be struck by a bolt of lighnng. Just make sure you give Maaser 🙂
I know that Rav Moshe prohibited it in different teshuvois. I wonder if the people who rely on Rav Moshe with regard to Cholov Stam, are they machmir when it comes to shaking a womens hand? I wonder…..
MCP: If you eat pork, you won’t either be struck by lightening.
For all those who are so intent on a woman getting shot rather than hugging a man, would you feel the same way if it were your daughter? I am curious. It is easy to be theoretical, but when push comes to shove, though someone might prefer to be killed rather than to submit to forcible relations, I would be surprised if they felt the same way were they or someone they loved, forced merely to hug someone.
One who is raped chalilah, does not get put to death by Jewish law (though in Muslim law, the father can honor-kill his own daughter for being raped). If the chiyuv/obligation was to be killed rather than transgress, would it not apply in such a case? The fact that it does not, makes me think that certain actions do NOT obligate one to die rather than do them. Shaking someone’s hand might fit that category. Hugging, too. I am NOT advocating doing either of those things or any other type of arayos, which are clearly 100% assur. I just have a feeling of disconcertion that anyone would think that being forced to hug someone against the will with a gun to their head, is the same as having non-marital relations with someone who is not permitted to you to marry.
I note the various comments that were made to me, and take them under advisement. Thank you.
oomis: As mdd pointed out to you, it is not a matter how you “feel” or “prefer” about it, it is a matter a of Jewish law. And I’ve already cited above the law is that one must even give up their life rather than shake a woman’s hand.
MCP: Whether a non-Jewish woman is inherently an Ervah is a separate Machlokes between the Rambam and Tosfos.
oomis –
Of course there are different levels in what is wrong. However, when it comes to arayos, normative halacha rules that even the slightest infraction is so dangerous that one should rather give up their life then risk going there. Even though going there would not be a capital offense. This is simply because of the recognition of the severity of what these things lead to.
At the same time, no human can judge someone who did not follow what Chazal said to do in such a case, because obviously no one can possibly know how they would react under such circumstances. In fact, even if someone succumbed and actually had relations with a married woman because there was a gun to their head, l’halacha we would consider the person a fine, upstanding Jew. Because the Torah says that a forced action doesn’t count. The rule of yehareg v’al ya’avor is only l’chatchila, not after the fact.
All this being said, as I wrote above, I do not believe there would ever practically be a halacha of yehareg v’al ya’avor with regard to anything but the actual act of giluy arayos, because everything else is subject to the feelings one has (i.e. derech chibah), and obviously when someone says hug me or I will shoot you there is no chibah on the part of the person with the gun to their head.
The one comment of yours I have an issue with is this:
would you feel the same way if it were your daughter?
You seem to imply that this halacha somehow affects women more than it does men. But it’s the same halacha for me as it is for you. If someone points a gun at me and says i must be with someone I am an ervah to, I am also required by halacha to give up my life. So I don’t know why you didn’t just write, “would you feel the same way if it were you?”
OOmis, Though I think that indeed in this case the line of halachic determination is clear, and the posters you are discussing this with are quite knowledgeable on this issue, please do not feel you have to have a sha shtil mentality as some have suggested when there is a halachic discussion going on. You have a keen logical mind, as is clear from your insightful posts, and I understand what you are saying. Few of us are so perfect in our observance that we will never let feelings, or considerations like wanting our child to live rather than be killed, take priority in our choices. Not everyone is a Chana with her 7 sons, capable of dealing with such nisyonos like her.
Hundreds if not thousands of frum, chareidi parents, talmidei chachomim among them, Rabbis among them, found ways to save their children during the Shoah by getting them into convents and Catholic orphanages. That’s a yehareg v’al yaavor, and yet it was done, and lives were saved, and illuim and rabonim grew up from these kids.
Will you say they were wrong? Could I say they were wrong? Well, I don’t have the chutzpah to presume I know what is right in that situation. Maybe others do. Not me.
You won’t find any of the talmidei chachomim here – and they are talmidei chachomim, without question – considering this historical tidbit. Why? It’s outside the parsha of the beis medresh, and thus it isn’t right to let facts get in the way of a good and righteous svoro. That is where halocho, even halocho lemaaseh, intersects with realities that perhaps weren’t contemplated. Who knows how the individual will act, and who can say with confidence that they would follow the apparent halocho in such a situation? And yet you I think will understand very well how people might think in such a situation, so keep providing your wisdom.
Yichusdik: It’s interesting that you mention that example. While learning with someone, I once pointed out that the technical Halachah is that it’s Assur to use a church/convent/monastery to save one’s life, even in the Holocaust. I once later heard someone say that all of those who put their kids in monasteries will have to give a Din V’cheshbon on it. I almost smacked him in the face, told him that he was Mevazeh thousands of Frum Jews and Talmidei Chachamim, that he was Chayav Nidui, and that he had to go to the camps and ask Mechilah from the remains of all of those holy Neshamos who were lost. (It’s actually a funny story what happened then. He got very scared and, just to keep himself safe, decided to tell this story to a very prominent very right-wing Rav, who he assumed would agree with his assessment. The Rav agreed with my response to the letter.)
Sam: It is yehereg v’al yaavor if there is derech chiba on either party. So if a guy puts a gun to a woman’s head and orders her to do something with him that she thinks isn’t derech chiba for herself, she still must give up her life since it is derech chiba for the guy (with the gun).
Avhaben: That’s just not true. It’s Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor, not Yeihareg V’al Ya’avir. If it’s Derech Chibah for one party but not the other, at worst the non-Derech Chibah party is Lifnei Iveir.
avhaben – meheicha teisi
Yihusdic and Sam2, if it was assur to do, then they were wrong. Do not bring emotions and wrong ones at that into determining Halochah!
Also, Sam2, off-hand, the Gemora there implies that if she were married, it would be normative Halocha. Look in the Ran there.
Well, mdd, I said that I don’t have the chutzpah to presume to know what is right in the situation I brought. You obviously do presume to know. I will leave you to your presumption, but enough with setting up the straw man – I said I wasn’t determining halocho, so I wasn’t bringing emotions into a determination I wasn’t making.
(BTW, that’s kind of an amateurish method of discourse. You are a smart individual, I have seen it in other threads. You can do better than that)
Two more things. You said “Do not bring emotions and wrong ones at that…” While one can and should certainly assign right and wrong to actions, and indeed our value system is predicated on actions in the form of mitzvos and aveiros, it is much less useful to describe emotions as right and wrong – meaning it is way more useful to describe them as constructive or destructive, in that they help you to do mitzvos or they hinder you. But no one is so perfect that they don’t Feel emotions, destructive ones, that they have to overcome, and even if they end up doing the right thing, the initial emotion that stirred them to action may not have been constructive, but not necessarily wrong.
Lastly, I have to ask – have you ever asked a Rov a shailah about an issue involving sholom bayis, or extended family? Have you ever seen the delicate negotiations that sometimes happen with donors to shuls and schools when something is being donated and named? Have you thought that in the parsha of accepting or declining admitting a child to a school, in all of these issues, emotions of course play apart in the tshuvo or psak you are going to get. To assume otherwise as you did is a tendentious assertion.
I posted a brief response to csar and others who maintain that shaking hands with a woman is “jaharog ve’al jaavor”but it wasn’t quoted. I don’t know the place from the Chazon Ish that he mentions- I do know that R”Moshe ztl has a couple of teshuvos on this and he is certainly not intimating the same thing. He quotes the minhag of Rabbonim in Germany that did shake hands and , although he writes “koshe lehattir”- it is difficult to be “meikel’, he surely does not say anything about “jaharog ve’al jaavor”.
I see everyone here assumes male-female contact. There is another negia issue. Why don’t Kohanim go to cemeteries/levayos/etc.? To avoid becoming Tomai. So if the rest of us are Tomai Mes, then how can any of us shake the hand of a Kohain?
;
rabbiofberlin –
While I acknowledge that there are those who are lenient, my rav told me that the Chazon Ish told him that shaking hands is yehareg v’al ya’avor.
Mayan: I’m far from knowledgeable in Taharos, but I’m pretty sure that a person who’s an Av Hatum’ah doesn’t make another person a Rishon just by touching them. And even if they did, a Kohen is only prohibited from coming into direct contact (or moving or being in an Ohel with) a corpse which is Avi Avos Hatum’ah.
Same minhag in The Netherlands as in Germany. Nowadays people tend to try and be stricter, but still, as far as I know the general position is that in situations where not shaking hands would be awkward / problematic, one is allowed to do so. For example, the most relevant (and pretty much the only relevant) scenario of going on a job interview, or, related, meeting your new boss for the first time. In those situations I do not avoid it at all, I simply see no point in giving myself a bad reputation. (Of course this applies specifically to Chu”l with non-Jewish women – in Israel it is / should be completely acceptable for any frum person not to shake hands with the opposite gender and one may assume that non-frum people there respect this.)
yitayningwut— The Chazon Ish had many opinions that are not mainstream (do you keep shiur chazon ish always?) and intrestingly , the quotes on behalf of the Chazon ish (see earlier posters) are all second-hand or from “story books”.
At least,R’Moshe writes it in an actual teshuvah.
I just saw your post Yichusdik, and I appreciate what you said.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.