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Gmar Chasima Tova!! May we all be written in the Book of Life!! Ladies, deep down you all know EXACTLY whats wrong with short skirts!! We need to constantly remind ourselves we are bas Melochim!! We are not supposed to dress like the goyim at all!!!We are Royalty, make sure you play the part!!
apushatayid said
“If everyone worked on their own shortcomings instead of focusing on the shortcomings of everyone else, we stand a good chance of seeing moshiach. Today.”
The problem is most people today DONT WORK ON THEMSELVES unless things get to the point that they are FORCED TO!!!
APY, I recently tried getting people to stop using the term prutzah to no avail.
This is the “in” mitzvah to rail against.
I think its time men look at their own mitzvos that people are struggling with rather than concentrate too much on womens dress, which in and of itself is not so tzanua.
Ive read this post a couple of times and i think i hit upon a really good idea- MYOB! which by the way stands for Mind Your Own Bussiness. I am one of those girls who wears so called shorter skirts and I will not stop just because some random stranger tells me off… Also, please realize that if my skirt is “short” I am generally struggling with something else. I am working to become a better Jew. You might not see that as your eyes will stray straight to the bottom of my skirt and you’ll denounce me as part of the epidemic… Which brings me to my next point- If it bothers you that much, work on yourself not to notice it! You work on yourself, and Ill work on myself- in whatever areas we each choose. And when you walk down the street and you do notice someone wearing clothing that you deeem as being not tznius enough, try to imagine what other areas this person can be working on and what struggles they are faceong. And when I see you staring at me, I will try to judge you favorably and imagine that you have different nisyonos that you are working on. Does anyone agree that this seems like a reasonable plan?
but you know what? I have a skirt. it is four inches below my knee. my sister thinks it’s too short. my mother thinks it’s fine. i wear it on shabbos. to shul. none of the women have ever told me anything. the rebbetzin has never told me anything, nor has she given me any looks when i go over to her to wish her good shabbos. i am complimented on this skirt.
you know what? when it comes to tznius, ppl are on different levels. what some ppl see as short, others might think is ok. what some ppl see as tight, some might see as fine. when i look at someone, i don’t measure how long her skirt is. what hits me first is whether or not the whole outfit gives off a nice, put together, bais yaakov look (obviously, if i saw someone with a skirt that was so obviously too short, she would not fit in this category).
Hashemlovesme, the big difference is you’re a girl it’s not supposed to be attractive to you it’s supposed to attract guys (basically i’m saying you can’t use your personal experience regarding yourself or any other girl for that matter you need a frum guy’s opinion (i don’t think a brother will do, they don’t look at their sisters attractively)
Ah yes…now for scene eight hundred and ninety. But this is a special edition, apparently. A double feature! O boy!
I brought popcorn, anybody have root beer?
Regarding the earlier “zona” comment. I did not CH”V intend to imply that a skirt that’s too short means the wearer should be labeled a zona. That is clearly not true as there are obviously many levels of dress between tznius and zona and besides it would still be a terrible thing to call a bas yisrael so I was in no way implying that.
My point was, as I wrote, that a woman has no right to violate tznius in any way (whether prutza, zona or any other level) just because she feels the need to make herself more attractive for her husband. Tznius certainly does allow a woman to make herself attractive to her husband (when appropriate), but that does not mean she can dress in a non-tznius manner in the street; she obviously may not.
And if the husband senses this is what’s happening, he obviously should inform her that he appreciates her thought and consideration for him, but he prefers she dress fully modestly in public as required by halacha.
Im in a dillemma. Im very concious to make sure my skirts cover my knee at all times. I just bought a very nice straight skirt- when im standing it covers way below my knee (at least 4 inches) And when im sitting it also covers. But when i got into a car my skirt rode up a little to make me feel uncomfortable. I really like the skirt and it covers all the time its just cars thats the problem. I don’t know what to do. I don’t think lengthening it will help. Is it wrong to wear it and just be extra careful while getting in a car?
The honest answer (which you may not want to hear) is that the skirt is too short for you.
There is definitely too much TALK about tznius in schools, shuls, forums, etc. The other issue is that all too many times the ills of the world are blamed on women not wearing tznius clothing. In today’s world when you say that to a kid, a teenager, and even an adult woman (“the reason 9-11 happened was because woman are showing too much of their collar bones, knees or elbows”) it loses it’s effectiveness. Our girls and women today are much more sophisticated than that.
I personally teach my daughter the importance of valuing herself as a PERSON and not feeling the NEED to dress in a way that exposes her too much. Girls need to learn the importance of loving themselves first, then they’ll stop trying to get the outside attention with the way they dress.
If someone is dressed in a way that is unacceptable to you and they are in a public place, you have NO RIGHT to say anything. If they are in your home you can say something in a nice way. If you do that and they still ignore you, you have an issue of respect going on.
People today are afraid to set standards and deal with them directly. When that occurs and we are not passive aggressive about it, we’ll see results. Lastly, when other people who are pointing out other people’s faults are doing so while “misbehaving” in other areas, your words are null.
I find it very telling that we can discuss, here in the CR or elsewhere, all sorts of issues and problems from problems with the shidduch system, problems with kashrus, problems in bungalow colonies, problems with honesty and stealing, parenting issues, alcohol and drug problems, teens at risk, other halachic issues/problems, and stam general issues – and everyone can argue – even passionately and heatedly at times – yet no one tries to shut down the discussion with the old and tired things like they suddenly do when tznius and related topics arise with eh, its not ahavas yisroel to mention this, its not proper to discuss, mind your own business, etc. etc. etc. By tznius issues this same band suddenly gets all up tight and doesn’t even want to hear about it. Not that they even deny the massive tznius problems besetting our frum society. No, they often even admit it. Yet on this issue almost singularly, they just don’t even want to hear about it with all the tired excuses.
There is only one way to correct this problem and we need to get serious and stop being so politically correct. Every neighborhood must have a Vaad Hatznius which will appoint women to monitor the dress habits of its Jewish girls and Aishes Chayils. For persistent violators, warnings should be extended in a quiet way so that no one need be embarrassed as a result. If these warnings are ignored, then a quasi public “chairim” is in order. Just watch those hem lines come down!
I take offense to the posters term “so called frum girls”! The girls are still frum even though their skirts might not be to the poster’s liking. It is not up to the poster to judge their level of frumkeit.
“The honest answer (which you may not want to hear) is that the skirt is too short for you.”
so right- i appreciate your response, but im just wondering if there is any leniences here being that it covers all the time except getting into a car- like if i would be conscious to lets say hold it down so it won’t uncover my knees?
blinky, lets be honest. you’re A) not always going to remember to hold it down and B) even when you do, you’re not always going to be 100% successful. therefore my answer stands.
so right- A) its a straight skirt so its not like i can forget about it because its not so flairy so i feel it everytime i would get in. b) its a new skirt- i was only in a car once since i got it so i can’t say how hard it is to fix it.
Its so hard because e/t i buy i try it on standing and sitting to make sure its tzniyus, but there are no cars in a dressing room! I can’t return it but im thinking of maybe wearing it just for shabbos (its that kind of skirt that can be worn for weekday and shabbos) so i won’t have to worry about cars.
Thanks Moq, I needed that.
Blinky, HashemLovesMe, the problem with the four inch rule is that as important is the sitting down in the dressing room test, which many people don’t bother with. So simple though.
Ramateshkolian, on one hand, I’m a big MYOB person. I’m just thrilled to see people enthusiastic about Yiddishkeit. I see it like my grandparents did a century ago – if you’re shomer Shabbos and have a bren for Yiddishkeit, that’s a major victory.
BUT BUT BUT I do want my daughters to cover their knees, and feel uncomfortable when they don’t. But when they see so many, and certain in particular, people not able to sit down with their knees covered, it wears them down and erodes the sensitivity. That said, this is not the battle I spend energy on outside of my own daled amos.
Blinky. Get tinted windows if they are legal in your state.
apushutayid, the bigger issue is getting into and out of the car when the door is open.
kapusta, yes, this pandemic (and that is an understatement) is occurring amongst some BY types, unfortunately, as mdd said. (amongst some non-BY girls this issue has long been a problem and even worse.) if you feel one method discussed to cure this illness is ineffective please please share what you feel IS effective. to do nothing or ignore it is certainly not the solution and will leave it untreated and allow it to get worse, as it already has.
Truth is I don’t have any major ideas of what might work. Maybe if a large group of people would go into a well known (frum) store and say “don’t sell short skirts (skirts that are excessively short- skirt lengths are different on different people), or bring in a seamstress so people can add something to the bottom (if there is a seamstress in the store and no one needs to go traveling, people will be more inclined to actually follow up on the adding on) or we wont shop here anymore.” If people really avoid that store, then they will be forced to change their style of inventory. Of course this would only work for the people who shop in frum stores.
~IF ANYONE HAS ANY PLAN TO IMPLEMENT ANYTHING OF THIS NATURE, PLEASE ASK YOUR LOR FIRST~
I do think that by simply avoiding shoving speeches down every ones throat, the problem will get somewhat better on its own.
myfriend, this topic has been hashed and rehashed and picked over.
I still think discussing tznius in a mixed crowd is a little not tzanua.
EDITED
Leave the mussar and the tochacha to the Rabbonim until you learn all the relevant halachos related to giving mussar and tochacha. Please.
The obligation to give tochacha is incumbant upon everyone, not just the Rabbonim.
MYFRIEND: I tried to edit what I wrote because I figured someone would write that. Hopefully the MODS will allow my ammended comment through. If not. This is what the ammended comment said “Leave the mussar and the tochacha to the Rabbonim until you learn all the relevant halachos related to giving mussar and tochacha. Please.”
The obligation to give tochacha is incumbant upon everyone, not just the Rabbonim.
true, but only if you know how, and are wise and sensitive enough. very few people today know how, and it is assur and extremely dangerous to administer such potent medicine unless you are an expert. dangerous to the giver more than the recipient.
SJS – you are 100% right.
The obligation to give tochacha is incumbant upon everyone, not just the Rabbonim.
true, but only if you know how, and are wise and sensitive enough. very few people today know how, and it is assur and extremely dangerous to administer such potent medicine unless you are an expert. dangerous to the giver more than the recipient.
Agreed 100%.
to: Im in a dillemma. Im very concious to make sure my skirts cover my knee at all times. I just bought a very nice straight skirt- when im standing it covers way below my knee (at least 4 inches) And when im sitting it also covers. But when i got into a car my skirt rode up a little to make me feel uncomfortable. I really like the skirt and it covers all the time its just cars thats the problem. I don’t know what to do. I don’t think lengthening it will help. Is it wrong to wear it and just be extra careful while getting in a car?
answer: The problem is not the length, it is too tight. Straight skirts may fine in all directions except for when you are getting into a car, so they are a problem. I have a skirt that is really tsniusdik, but I can’t go up the steps in a van or a Suburban, in other cars I can just slide in and keep my knees covered. Try not to wear that skirt when going in a car.
cherrybim – You do that and let me tell you, you will have a lot of girls going OTD. I know, I for one would go OTD in the tznius sense in a minute if some random people think they can tell me what to wear.
Speeches for the most part don’t work because:
a)they speak way to much about it so no one listens after a while.
b)people feels like oh that’s just a chumrah and I hold differently.
c)everyone makes sensitivities assur. Be clear when its Halacha and when its not. A red shirt can be permissible on one person, and be totally tznuisdik.
It’s also hard to find skirts long enough. Many frum stores do NOT sell tznius clothing but since it’s from (insert Jewish store) it’s ok.
There’s a problem out there, but I don’t think pressuring people is the answer or speeches either.
to: to: Im in a dillemma. Im very concious to make sure my skirts cover my knee at all times. I just bought a very nice straight skirt- when im standing it covers way below my knee (at least 4 inches) And when im sitting it also covers. But when i got into a car my skirt rode up a little to make me feel uncomfortable. I really like the skirt and it covers all the time its just cars thats the problem. I don’t know what to do. I don’t think lengthening it will help. Is it wrong to wear it and just be extra careful while getting in a car?
answer:I forgot to add, maybe you can have a kick pleat put into the skirt to give it a little more width.
“I know, I for one would go OTD in the tznius sense in a minute if some random people think they can tell me what to wear.”
Would you go OTD and eat treif if some random people told you they think something you are eating is treif?
Would you go OTD and be mechallel Shabbos if some random people told you they think something you are doing is chillul Shabbos?
Oomis, those you describe are definitly not zonas, but they just as definitely they are prutzas. Uncovered knees getting into a car or uncovered elbows most definitly falls into the category of a prutza. “
And I could not disagree more. A prutza is a very definite type of immoral woman (or man for that matter), who ACTS as well as dresses, in a way that is utterly contrary to the spirit and letter of the Torah.
If you believe that someone is immoral because they dress a couple of inches too short to suit your sensitivities (and I believe firmly that they SHOULD dress b’tzniyus, but I would mever condemn them for not following my standard), then you really have no concept of what immorality is. I know people who believe it is untzniusdig for a BABY GIRL to dress in sleeveless clothing in the summer.
Time to find another topic. And I think the one about people who double park, blocking cars from leaving, or people who act like bulvanim in stores or restaurants, are a much worse chillul Hashem than an exposed inch of throat, elbow, or knee.
“Would you go OTD and eat treif if some random people told you they think something you are eating is treif?
Would you go OTD and be mechallel Shabbos if some random people told you they think something you are doing is chillul Shabbos? “
No, but I know people who would and did, for exactly that reason. I would be extremely embarrassed if they did it in public. Someone actually did that to me in college, and it turned out SHE was mistaken, the food item I was eating had recently acquired a hechsher (which I knew, which was why I was eating it!). She actually grabbed it out of my hand and flung it to the ground. GOOD JOB! Did NOT apologize or pay for the item.
If someone thought i was eating treif, or being M”Sh, I would hope they would take me aside and ask me what I was doing, and let me know their concern in a “I had heard some time ago that this item is no longer kosher – when did they announce that it was under hechsher again?” type of way. That lets me know there might be a problem, and also that the person is assuming l’kaf zechus that I know it is ok again,rather than their criticizing me for eating it. The next step is up to me.
To the too tight skirt dilemma – If you slide in first, then swing the legs in carefully, it should not happen.
oomis1105, Just as 1+1=2 regardless of what anyone feels about it, not tznius=pritzus and someone regularly not tzniusdik = a prutza. And having uncovered elbows and up or knees and up — even “a couple of inches too short” — is pritzusdik. Having that uncovered elbow or knee is “utterly contrary to the spirit and letter of the Torah” and the description of an immoral person and prutza. Just like 1+1=2.
And I agree with you that tochocho should be given in private not public. (At least the first time.)
It is 100% assur to give tochacha if you do not know how to fulfill the next mitzvah “lo tisa alav chait”. See the sefer hamitzvos. For starters.
The requirements to give Tochachah are:
1) You have to first assess that there is at least a reasonable possibility of the person listening to you. (Sometimes there are Halachic ways of assessing this.)
2) You have to give the Tochachah in a non-aggressive manner, and never in front of people.
3)You have to make the person understand that the only reason you are giving him the Tochachah is because you care about him, and it is for his good, so that he can get Olam Habah.
It also says in Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah.
While my post above was written with more than a bit of sarcasm, you may not be aware of it, but the tznius police are out there and have been for some time; especially in schools. Women (and men), you are being watched when you bring your children in for interviews and then you wonder why they have not been accepted to that school. Can you imagine coming to a school not dressed to the utmost in tznius and in good taste, but it happens all the time. Women, what are you thinking? Same thing for shidduchin; get smart and dress right.
Reb Moshe, Even Haezer (1:69) last paragraph:
“But there is another issur for women from the din of Das Yehudis not to behave with pritzus from Kesuvos 72. But from this aspect, it is only when she alone dresses that way. But when it is the derech of all the women in her city to dress that way, it is not shayach to consider it as pritzus. And it makes no difference whether the original custom of that city developed because of intentional pritzus, since at any rate because it is the derech of their dress and walking around, one cannot consider it as an act of pritzus and to forbid it to them, rather from a derech chasidus for extra tznius, and they should be blessed (Tavo aleihem bracha).”
So Oomis is 100% right. A lack of tznius does not equate to pritzus. Note that most places in shas, tznius is used as an extra credit type of context. For example, the story of Hilni Hamalka in beginning of Sukkah which says that her sukkah was compartmentalized for extra tznius. The gemara orginally asked why a queen should have a compartmentalized sukkah, not a nice big open one. The gemara answers it is possible she had it for tznius. The gemara is not implying she is required to have such a sukkah, or else what was the hava amina.
As far as the story with my daughter, she had a skirt that everybody thought was fine, except maybe the pockets or zipper were in the wrong side, so I told her it was improper, because the camp list said that is wrong. (I was naive back then). She wanted to wear it. I made a big deal over it. Now I regret it, because how in the world did such a thing become halacha, and why did I aggravate my daughter and cause bad feelings between us over this. Of course there is nothing wrong with that. It just may not fit into the arbitrary cookie-cutter definition of what Bais Yaakov girls are supposed to look like.
Cherrybim, you have to believe it to do it. Unfortunately, the most insistent of people who feel they are right and have the right to impose their beliefs on others, have a tendency to push others away rather than draw them closer. So instead of impressing them with their midos and their mussar they push them away with their “bad midos” and “harsh mussar”. You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. So those who have vinegar dripping from their lips are going to push others away with the bad taste that emanate from their lips. The tznius police are not helping in Eretz Yisroel and it is not going to help here either.
The only way to change the attitude of tznius is to be exemplary role models of midos and maasim tovim so that others would want to emulate you and be on our madreigah in all areas. You might only change one person at a time, but you will never know how that ripple effect will work out.
cherrybim
Baloney Macaroni. Kids in the best schools have mothers who dont dress Tzniusdik. They usually dont decide based on the mothers dress unless they also dont have money.
A question to all those who say that applying pressure would back-fire: do you really think that all those women and girls, who of lately have been violating the halochos of ts’nius, are that rotten? I thought better of them.
Someone hit upon a great idea earlier. Perhaps they did not intend for it to come out this way but the way I understood it, it makes a lot of sense. I apologize to the one who raised this idea earlier, but I dont have the patience to scroll back and find out who you are, so I can not quote you by name, but, you know who you are.
Schools should do away with uniforms and instead establish guidelines for dress. Let the students come dressed however they want and when that mode of dress does does not meet the schools guidelines it should be addressed with the student. Students will learn pretty quickly what standards are expected of them by those who run their school and if they choose to continue in that school, will continue to dress according to those standards, whether they like it or not (even if that standard is chumra built upon chumra, by choosing to attend the school, they agree to the mode of dress). Parents have a right to send their children elsewhere if they dont agree with those standards. Something will give, eventually. School uniforms dont do a very good job of giving over to students what the school hashkafa is regarding dress. Has anyone ever seen the uniform of any bais yackov type school that conjurs up the slightest hint of annoyance by anyone? Do the students believe this is the standard expected of them by the school? I have never worn a uniform (I’m not even female) and the closest I have ever come to a dress code in any yeshiva setting was dress pants and business shirts (which by definition excluded certain colors and styles), and that was when I was in bais medrash. When I was in high school, I started out wiht Polo shirts, until I was approached by the mashgiach at the end of tenth grade and we discussed “graduating” from Polo shirts to button down shirts. In 12th grade we discussed graduating from khakis and other casual style pants to dress pants (all bachurim had these discussions with the mashgiach, when he deemed it the appropriate time). In short, I (and my chaverim) understood the hashkafa behind why we were expected to dress a certain way. I am out of high school for close to 25 years and I dont know if bachurim in yeshiva or girls in high schools and seminaries develop relationships with people who know and understand them to get such hadracha. It seems that todays chinuch in general is mass produced and not “al pi darko”. As a result, instead of a teenager, boy or girl, learning why they are expected to dress a certain way, they are given the basic “do this, dont do that” routine (in the case of tznius its, cut and dry rules along with outrageous hyperbole with terms such as prutza and zona casually tossed around).
SJS. I was going to raise coming late for davening, but bittul zman is also a terrible crisis, a mageifa, why its practically pritzusdik.
One sin doesn’t excuse another. There are thousands of threads on this website discussing thousands of issues. That doesn’t excuse this one. This one in fact is far worse than most, as the person is not only sinning themselves, but causing others to sin every time they aren’t dressed with tznius. Causing, potentially, hundreds of others to sin every day they dress as such. Hundreds or thousands of sins for each time they engage in this sin. Causing another person to sin is one of the worst aveiros. Here she is causing hundreds or more innocent bystanders to sin by simply seeing her, intentionally or unintentionally, each time. Not too many other aveiros are like that.
1.PARENTS: Fathers should do all they can to foster a healthy self-image in their daughters with regard to their general appearance.A girl’s first “male to impress”is her father.Together with a mother who is generous with compliments(ex.”Hashem gave you a beautiful face,bli ayin hora”)the girl will feel good about herself.Secure, she is less likely to be bursting to “test the waters”(am I pretty enough?)with every/any male as she starts realizing her innate power to attract…
2.The Spirit of Tznius:If a girl grows up with the sensitivity to tznius,it is easier for her to make better decisions when shopping for clothes.Here are a few examples.A mother can remark casually”you know,today I saw a beautiful outfit..I was debating with myself-should I get it?It’s a bit snug/showy..I decided to hold off.Guess what?In the very next store,I found a much nicer outfit–and it was half the price!See how Hashem loves when we try to do the right thing?”OR:”Sweetheart,that top really does look attractive on you…maybe a little too attractive?I guess that’s the nisayon of being so nice and slim..let’s look for that same color,just a looser style….”
3.TEENS NEED TO MAKE A FEW MISTAKES:Fighting and arguing rarely leaves them with a good taste in their heart for tznius..At this point,it’s more along the lines of:”I know you want to look classy-not cheap.I trust you’ll make good choices.”AND IF THEY MAKE MISERABLE CHOICES…IT’S BETWEEN THEM AND HASHEM.YOU TAUGHT THEM,YOU GUIDE THEM–BUT ULTIMATELY THEY HAVE BECHIRA.
Myfriend, let’s put it into perspective. The worst dressed frum girl probably doesn’t even come close to what can be seen all over the streets during the summer in just about any neighborhood. Frum girls are not the ones causing men to sin, even if their skirts are an inch too short sometimes. There are plenty of women from other groups and nationalities who are the real problem. Come on now.
P.Y., when Reb Moshe referred to the “derech all women dress in the city”, he is referring to frum yidden, not goyim.
People tend to notice and have hirhurim from their own kind, i.e. other yidden, much more than from goyim. Sure goyim these days dress literally like chazeirim on two feet. But when frum girls dress provocatively they cause other yidden to sin. Unquestionably.
umm oomis, mdd said exactly the opposite of what you are taking out of context. he asked that hypothetically. he effectively said they are NOT rotten. did you miss his question mark followed by his own answer of “I thought better of them.”
Since even those wearing short skirts don’t deny it is wrong, what exactly are they thinking in their head, justifying the unjustifiable??? there is nothing they can answer, not to anyone, especially to Hashem. are they just hoping no one will call them unto the carpet for this terrible thing??
These are Jewish girls being spoken about here. Please, lets avoid words like prutzah and zonah. Its Aseres Y’mei Tshuva.
As a side point, I for one don’t believe the majority of people who have a slightly short skirt or sleeve are doing it to attract. The ones who have bad intentions know very well what they’re doing and have no reason to wear a skirt that is an inch above the knee over one that is three inches.
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