Should A Yid Own A Gun? Or Not?
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- This topic has 152 replies, 27 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 2 months ago by charliehall.
December 15, 2010 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #593525maahMember
What are your thoughts on gun possession? bad idea? neutral? great idea?
Do you own one?December 15, 2010 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #723460WIYMember
Dont own one. Hope not to need one ever. Kol Haboteiach Bashem Chessed Yesovevenu.December 15, 2010 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #723461SacrilegeMember
Not sure what it has to do w being Jewish…
I am for the right to bear arms. However, I think that the system makes it much to easy for criminals to get a-hold of weapons, so I think we needs stronger gun laws.December 15, 2010 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #723462artchillParticipant
MYOB!December 15, 2010 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #723463
so a plastic bb gun doesn’t count?December 15, 2010 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #723464WIYMember
“I am for the right to bear arms.”
Thats not Tzniusdig.December 15, 2010 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #723465mamashtakahMember
Depends where you’re talking about. Where I live (the Shomron) more than half the Jewish adult population own guns, and most openly carry them – including some women.December 15, 2010 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #723466maahMember
what’s MYOB?December 15, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #723467
you violent americans.
legalising guns (the very thought) even policemen should have a badge and a whistle vezehuDecember 15, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #723468artchillParticipant
Mind your own BusinessDecember 15, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #723469
What does being Jewish have to do with it?December 15, 2010 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #723470
jews being in golus and all like keeping a lower profile and have both the goverment and god to answer to for manslaughterDecember 15, 2010 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #723471bptParticipant
Do you live in the settlements (or a place of similar danger), like Mamashtakkeh? Then you need one. Do you live in America? Do don’t need one (unless your business requires it)December 15, 2010 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #723472Aishes ChayilParticipant
If you live in occupied territory, then by all means.
If you live in Chuts La aretz and you need one for business, I sure hope your a police officer. Otherwise, please seek out another profession, lol!December 15, 2010 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #723473
I dont think anyone would be foolish enough to bring a gun into their home for no reason. If someone needs it for safety purposes or for their job thats different. But there are safety measures that haveto be taken when keeping it at home.December 15, 2010 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #723474
I think we exhaustively discussed this about a year ago.
the ultimate consensus is that one should only own a gun if one is properly trained in gun use. With added power comes added responsibility.
There are so many cases where an untrained person has discharged a gun in self-defense, and has missed the perpetrator and has killed a child, wife, neighbor or bystander. You would then have to live the rest of your life with the burden of guilt. This is particularly likely to happen if you live in an apartment building.
Shooting a gun is not at all like it is portrayed on TV. It’s not just point and shoot.
Also, if you have children, you must take steps to make sure that the children never, ever, ever can get access to the gun. You must lock it in a special safe made for guns and have a trigger lock. We have all heard what can happen when a child finds a hidden gun.
If you are willing to take the training and buy all the safety equipment, then you may consider a gun, if you need one.
Why do you need one?
(note: I am not against gun ownership, I am against naive and untrained gun ownership)December 15, 2010 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #723475
Every RESPONSIBLE head of a household should definitely have a (legal – i.e. with a permit) firearm in the house!
Of course with that ownership comes the responsibility to know how to use the gun AND (yes, “BEST IMA”) how to store it SAFELY so there is no chance of it getting into the wrong (small) hands.
I have possessed (legally of course) a rifle in my home for over 20 years and feel it is a necessity.
Now more than ever, with the terrible economy, robbers are becoming bolder, and we are hearing of more and more cases of violent home break-ins, EVEN when people are at home!
If, chas v’shalom, that should happen to you, what will you do?
Call 911??? Even IF you have time to do that, (and I hate to have to be so blunt) by the time the cops arrive, you and your family could be dead!
If you say you will daven, that’s great, but HaSh-m expects some hishtadlus as well – and hishtadlus these days includes gun ownership. If you think you are safer here than the commenters above are, who live in the Shomron, DON’T be so sure!
Like the saying goes…
–Better to have it and not need it –
Than need it and not have it!December 15, 2010 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #723476
>>>Every RESPONSIBLE head of a household should definitely have a (legal – i.e. with a permit) firearm in the house!<<<
I disagree with you on this point. If a responsible head of household does not feel comfortable with a gun, or if he/she doubts his ability to react well in a panic situation, that person should do the responsible thing and NOT own a gun.December 15, 2010 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #723477
AinOhdMilvado Im just curious not arguing here. Where do you keep it that it is easily accessable and yet still safe. If you keep in in a closet high up behind everything in a locked box if C”V there is a breakin how is there time to get it? And if its within reach nearby isnt that too accessable?December 16, 2010 5:20 am at 5:20 am #723478
You are asking a very reasonable question.
Since some family members (i.e. children and grandchildren) do know me by my A.O.M. name on YWN, and might possibly (though I doubt it)read this, I will not answer TOO specifically, but suffice it to say, that the magazine of bullets, is kept in a seperate location from the gun itself (which is kept unloaded).
Both the gun and the magazine are out of sight. Obviously I know where both are, and the gun can be taken from it’s hiding place AND loaded in less than a minute.
I am extremely safety conscious. Just as a point of interest, when I was in my early twenties, I spent a year and a half on a border kibbutz in Israel. I would constantly get into an argument with my Israeli roommate who often did night-time shmira (guard duty). He had a habit, when he would drag himself into our room around sunrise, of leaving a loaded Uzi on our desk. I would yell at him about how dangerous that was because young kibbutz kids would often come visit us in our room. When I saw he was ignoring my warnings, I started removing the magazine from the gun myself and hiding both the gun and the mag in different places. After his having been annoyed by my actions several times, and having to get me to give him back the Uzi and the ammo, he finally got the hint, and started to do the right thing on his own.
So, yes, keeping a gun safely is an extremely serious responsibility, but, it CAN be done.December 16, 2010 5:32 am at 5:32 am #723479
“If a responsible head of household does not feel comfortable with a gun, or if he/she doubts his ability to react well in a panic situation, that person should do the responsible thing and NOT own a gun.”
I do agree with you, – but only partially.
Yes, the kind of person you described probably should NOT own a gun. BUT, – I do think a parent who is responsible for the safety of his family, should take it upon himself to get gun training so that he WILL feel comfortable with a gun, and so that he wont doubt his ability to react properly in a panic situation.
No normal person ever wants to have to confront an intruder in his home, but if chas v’chalila, the situation does arise, one should be prepared for it.December 16, 2010 5:33 am at 5:33 am #723480
dear BEST IMA – there are many safe yet accessible lockboxes designed for guns. Some use combinations, some check your fingerprints or other biometrics. All allow relatively fast access. If you google or search amazon for “gun safe accessible” you should find the latest and greatest models.
Regardless of whether you own a gun or a lockbox or both, you should teach your the rules of gun safety, because other people DO own guns and they don’t always store them responsibly.
If you see a gun: Stop; Don’t Touch; Leave the area; Tell an adult.
Stop – to take time to remember the rest of the instructions
Don’t touch – A firearm that is not touched or acted upon by an outside force is highly unlikely to fire, or endanger a person.
Leave the area – By leaving the area the child removes himself/herself from temptation, as well as from the danger that another person might pick up the gun and negligently cause it to fire.
Tell an adult – An adult, if not personally trained in handling firearms, should know enough to seek professional assistance
These rules are from the NRA’s Eddie Eagle program. Though I am not in favor of much of what the NRA does, they have hit the nail on the head with these rules for children.December 17, 2010 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #723481
waterguns?December 17, 2010 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #723482
Everyone should own at least one automatic rifle and handgun per member of the house.
I personally also have sawed off shotguns also in case of a close quarters standoff.
I got my daughter a derringer for her second birthday because it was light enough for her to hold. She can now hold a 9mm, so she uses the derringer when she plays “house”.December 17, 2010 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #723483
LOL! Very cute popa, – but I do hope you have more than “blueprints” watergun (mentioned in the comment before yours) if chalila anyone ever breaks in – AND, by the way…
I heard of two home break-ins in just this past week!
–Also b.t.w. popa (I know you were kidding, but) full-automatic rifles and sawed-off shotguns are illegal.
–Also b.t.w. -for people who WOULD like to have a gun but have heard permits are unattainable, that IS pretty much true for a carry permit for a hand gun,
BUT… a permit for a rifle or shotgun IS pretty easily attainable as long as you don’t have a criminal record.December 17, 2010 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #723484
dear popa, I admire your responsibility. The sawed-off shotgun is exactly the right weapon to have around your house, particularly if you live in an apartment building. This way, if you shoot the perpetrator and miss, you are not likely to hurt your wife, child or neighbor.
It is good to see people who follow the rules of gun safety.
ron “not so well informed” rsrDecember 17, 2010 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #723485
I buy modified M16s that don’t fire automatic, then I take them to this guy in Alabama with a shaved head who fixes them.December 18, 2010 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #723486
you don’t believe you can fight off a gang of burglars armed with a supersoaker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????/December 18, 2010 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #723487haifagirlParticipant
Everybody should see the video No Guns For Jews. You can watch it free online. Just Google it.December 19, 2010 12:29 am at 12:29 am #723488
I guess it might be possible that when they see what they are up against, they might laugh so hard that you could have a chance to escape!
If, after you soak them, you can stall them long enough with some really bad jokes, their guns might get rusty enough to jam!
you’re in a heap of trouble!December 19, 2010 3:54 am at 3:54 am #723489Midwest2Participant
Anecdote. Riding on a bus in EY back in the day (and fresh off the boat myself). Hanging from the strap when I suddenly realized I was looking down the muzzle of the Uzi being carried by the soldier in front of me – and the magazine was in. Tapped him on the shoulder…”Hamagazin shelcha….” “Oh, slichah.” and he moved the gun so it pointed at someone else 🙂December 19, 2010 4:12 am at 4:12 am #723490
Thanks for the info on the video
No Guns For Jews.
EVERYONE should google and see it.
Rabbi Meir Kahane ztzvk”l once said in an interview (and I’m not quoting him EXACTLY, but pretty close…)
“I’m known for saying “Every Jew a 22” – I WOULD have said “Every Jew an M-1″ but it didn’t rhyme!”.December 19, 2010 5:25 am at 5:25 am #723491
popa bar abba,
You’ve just admitted committing a felony. YWN may get a subpoena from a federal grand jury for your identification information. I’d recommend contacting a good criminal defense attorney.
To all: There is one state with almost no gun control laws: Vermont. You can even carry a concealed handgun there without a permit. Just don’t carry it onto the property of a school or a courthouse. And don’t take it out of state.December 19, 2010 7:02 am at 7:02 am #723492
How am I supposed to respond to that?December 19, 2010 8:15 am at 8:15 am #723493
Quick quote: “Now that we have full gun registration, the streets will be safer”…
Who said it and when??
ADOLF HITLER right before committing mass genocide of over 11 million people.
Who else here supports full gun registration? If Hitler liked this policy, I don’t think I feel so comfortable doing the same.
Please see http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart
This lists many genocides perpetrated by gun control lobbyists, from the Armenian Genocide by Turkey in 1915 to China (Red) throughout the cold war (1949-1976).
“When the gun prohibitionists quote a statistic about how many people are killed by firearms misuse, the discussion sometimes bogs down into whose crime stats to believe and how to count crimes vs. the defensive firearm uses. Death by Gun Control works on a level that nobody can dispute: documented world history.
In the 20th Century:
* Governments murdered four times as many civilians as were killed in all the international and domestic wars combined.
* Governments murdered millions more people than were killed by common criminals.
How could governments kill so many people? The governments had the power – and the people, the victims, were unable to resist. The victims were unarmed. ” (Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership- JPFO)
The message is plain: “Disarmed people are neither free nor safe – they become the criminals’ prey and the tyrants’ playthings” (JPFO). When people are left with no means to defend themselves, against other people or their government, millions of people are murdered
Now, who’s going to go out to the range with me?December 19, 2010 8:25 am at 8:25 am #723494
Oh, and proof that people should own guns and it doesn’t necessarily cause many accidental deaths? If someone was to enter your shabbos table this morning at lunch and place a .45 on the table (fully loaded)- would anything have happened? Would anyone at that table pick it up and start playing with it (even your 10 year old son?) ?? NO. Why? It is Shabbos! We go by a higher authority than just our urges. We might leave the table, but if you would tell your child it is mukzeh, they wouldn’t touch it! It is the person, not the gun, that murders. (In Psychology the term is called projection…)
Owning guns does not automatically cause household deaths.
Oh, and by the way, I almost forgot to say this: Of all the proponents of gun control out there, high on the list is Barbara Boxer (D-CA). She has lots of security around her 24/7 as a Senator. But she holds one of the few gun permits handed out in her city. Why should she deserve it any more than you or I do? SHE has private security guards…December 19, 2010 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #723495
I wouldn’t lose any sleep from charliehall’s comment, – everyone knows it was a clearly a joke.
Well said. I’ve yet to see a gun jump off a shelf or out of a closet or a drawer and kill anyone. Cars kill a LOT more people every year than guns. Maybe they should be banned too.December 19, 2010 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #723496
Accidental deaths by guns in gun-owner’s homes is a regular occurrence.December 19, 2010 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #723497
It’s ok. I have my Pepsi points Harrier jet to fight them off.December 19, 2010 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #723498
To: Trying my best…
“Accidental deaths by guns in gun-owner’s homes is” an EXTREMELY rare occurence!
There are THOUSANDS of times more accidental deaths from falls in bathtubs and staircases, gas explosions, ingestion of poisonous household cleaning products and accidental electrocutions.
Would anyone recommend forcing everyone to live in single level homes with no electricity, no cleaning products, and no gas heat or gas stoves?!?
What is never publicized is the THOUSANDS of crimes that are PREVENTED, that are stopped in their tracks, by a permit-holding gun owner just DISPLAYING his gun to a would be perpetrator, and sending him running without a shot ever being fired. Of course, these are non-events, so they rarely get reported, but they are true and significant nonetheless.
A case like that happened to me one night about four years ago.
I thought I heard someone trying to break in at my back door.
I quickly grabbed my gun and went to investigate. Sure enough, I was right! I just pushed aside the curtain over the small window on the top the door, and tapped on the window with the barrel of my gun.
I never saw anyone run that fast in my life.December 19, 2010 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #723499
Not to mention the times gunowners are killed by a thug, when they pulled a gun on the thug.December 19, 2010 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #723500
No-one’s ever run from my supersoaker.
Am I holding it wrong?December 19, 2010 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #723501
To: Trying my best…
Correct, NOT to mention those times because they ARE SO EXTREMELY RARE!
You know “Trying my best”, your comment reminds me of an old, dark humor anecdote about the early days of the Holocaust (and I am most definitely NOT judging or criticizing any Jew’s actions DURING the Holocaust, because THEN, unlike NOW, such a level of vicious, barbaric, savage, brutal anti-Semitism WAS unprecedented)…
Anyway the story goes like this –
Two Jews had just been pulled from their home and were being walked toward an assembly area by two nazi soldiers (yemach shemam).
One Jew turns to the other and whispers “Hey, Moshe, I know these guys have guns, but there’s only two of them and there ARE two of us, maybe we should try and jump them…”
Moshe turns to his friend and says “Don’t make trouble!”
So tell me “Tring my best”, if you are so afraid of guns, what exactly WOULD YOU DO to protect your family if, chalila, some armed druggie/s broke into your home one night (keeping in mind that it would take the cops AT LEAST 10-15 minutes to arrive -IF you could call them to come at all)?December 19, 2010 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #723502
I had a relative who owned a gun. Two deaths resulted.
The first was when a poor sick unarmed mentally ill person tried to break into his home. My relative could have easily and safely called 911 and fled. But instead he shot the intruder, who died. The police did not press charges.
The second death was himself, when he committed suicide.December 19, 2010 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #723503
Trying my best- Please give some evidence for the claims you are making. Statistics please? I gave some historical proof (and those who have not learned from history are doomed to repeat it). Would you like crime statistics on before and after banning guns in the same city? I can give those too… ban the guns and the crime rates double. What do criminals, who are locked away in jail, say the biggest deterrent for attacking/mugging/robbing a person is? Not how strong the person is but how likely they are to carry a gun. A debate on the subject can be nice, just as long as both sides stick to the same rules- facts not hysteria.December 19, 2010 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #723504
Approximate statistics in the US:
10,000 homicides using guns.
16,000 suicides using guns.
Under 1,000 accidental deaths from guns.
33,000 deaths in automobile accidents. (This number has dropped dramatically in recent years.)
250,000,000 registered passenger vehicles in US.
We do not know how many firearms exist in the US but estimates are that the number is approximately the same or slightly larger than the number of vehicles.December 19, 2010 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #723505
Some of you would like to know some statistics, – so, here are some statistics for you to consider…
–In a survey by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, it was found that over 500 rapes and over 1,000 murders are prevented EVERY DAY just by the would-be victim displaying their gun to the attacker (without ever firing it).
–In another survey by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics 57% of convicted felons admitted they were more worried about confronting an armed civilian, than by being caught by the police.
–In London, 2 years AFTER civilian handgun ownership was BANNED, the crime rate ROSE 40%.
–Norway which has the HIGHEST rate of gun ownership in Europe, has the LOWEST murder rate.
–Luxembourg, which BANNED guns, has one of the HIGHEST murder rates.
–Russia, which BANNED guns, has a murder rate 4 times higher than the U.S. and 20 times higher than Norway.
My fellow Yidden, I realize that for many of you, for MOST of you, – guns are scary, and guns are foreign. Being a victim is MUCH MORE SCARY and can result, chalila, in serious harm, or r”l something even worse for you and/or your precious family members. I urge you to get weapons training. Education will remove your fears and pre-conceived notions, and will enable you to act with confidence to protect your family.December 20, 2010 12:00 am at 12:00 am #723506
Charlie Hall- While your story is sad, there are two main comments I would like to write:
*the average time for police/911 to answer a call is approximately 9 minutes or more. If the intruder is armed, your friend could of been shot and the intruder long gone before the police arrived.
*your friend could have committed suicide in a number of ways. Are we going to ban kitchen knives? medication (overdose)? ooo-lets now ban sheets and towels because I can hang myself with them! Or crash my car purposely into a tree. or drown myself in a pool or bathtub. Banning guns would not have stopped the suicide- if he did not get help he could have done it in numerous other ways.December 20, 2010 1:58 am at 1:58 am #723507
Self-defense is commonly cited as a reason to own a gun. But research has shown that a gun kept in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.(Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay. “Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm Related Deaths in the Home.” The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 314, no. 24, June 1986, pp. 1557-60.) The use of a firearm to resist a violent assault actually increases the victim’s risk of injury and death(FE Zimring, Firearms, violence, and public policy, Scientific American, vol. 265, 1991, p. 48).
Dr. Jeffrey A. Roth does cite that there may be some self-defense benefit: victims who defended themselves with guns were less likely to report being injured than those who either defended themselves by other means or took no self-protective measures at all. Thus, while 33 percent of all surviving robbery victims were injured, only 25 percent of those who offered no resistance and 17 percent of those who defended themselves with guns were injured. For surviving assault victims, the corresponding injury rates were, respectively, 30 percent, 27 percent, and 12 percent. (Kleck, Gary, “Crime Control through the Private Use of Armed Force,” Social Forces, 35 (1988):1-22.)
But he goes on to argue that these statistics are “an insufficient basis for the personal decision whether or not to obtain a gun for self-protection…. First, the decision involves a trade-off between the risks of gun accidents and violent victimization. Second, it is not entirely clear that the relatively few robberies and assaults in which victims defended themselves with guns are typical of these types of crimes and that the lower injury rates resulted from the self-defense action rather than some other factor. Perhaps offenders lost the advantage of surprise, which allowed victims not only to deploy their guns but also to take other evasive action.”
Research by Dr. Arthur Kellerman has shown that keeping a gun in the home carries a murder risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one. That is, excluding many other factors such as previous history of violence, class, race, etc., a household with a gun is 2.7 times more likely to experience a murder than a household without one, even while there was no significant increase in the risk of non-gun homicides!
Obviously, there is a problem with criminals having access to guns, which is why so many people feel they, too, need a gun for self-defense. But this is a vicious cycle: FBI Crime Reports sources indicate that there are about 340,000 reported firearms thefts every year. Those guns, the overwhelming amount of which were originally manufactured and purchased legally, and now in the hands of criminals. Thus, the old credo “when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns” is silly. What happens is many guns bought legally are sold or stolen, and can then be used for crime. If those 340,000 guns were never sold or owned in the first place, that would be 340,000 less guns in the hands of criminals every year. Part of the reason there are so many guns on the street in the hands of criminals is precisely because so many are sold legally. Certainly, there will always be a way to obtain a gun illegally. But if obtaining a gun legally is extremely difficult, the price of illegal guns goes way up, and availability goes way down. Thus, it is much more difficult for criminals to obtain guns.December 20, 2010 3:10 am at 3:10 am #723508Midwest2Participant
Charlie: car ownership and gun ownership don’t match up. Most families have a car and maybe two, but not usually more. With guns, lots of people have no guns at all, and many of the people who do have guns have several or lots.
A more sensible statistic would be percentage of households owning guns, rather than simple number of guns. My bet is that it would turn out that having a gun in the house is a lot more dangerous than you think, especially if there are kids around or the gun owner drinks/drugs. (And don’t pretend there aren’t Yidden who fall into that category.)
I can use a gun and also drive a car. Both are very dangerous.
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