March 12, 2010 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #591391
should frum girls go to rallies, political events, etc? Do you think it’s not tznius? what if they’re careful not to get into any pictures? is it important for the orthodox community to be represented at such things? if your daughter went would you be proud or embarrassed?March 12, 2010 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #681748
No. And generally these political rallies accomplish little or nothing.March 12, 2010 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #681749
I think it might depend on the what the rally was about.If there were a rally for Israel or for Jewish causes, I would be ashamed of my daughter for not wanting to be there, if the cause was important. Sometimes the political world needs merely to see NUMBERS of people, in order to take note of a cause and attach importance to it. Men only represent approximately half of our population. The more people, male AND female, who are present, the better the representation. Political rallies helped to free Soviet Jewry. Ask Natan Scharansky his opinion about girls coming to rallies.
Nothing is untzniusdig, UNLESS it is conducted in an untzniusdig way.March 14, 2010 3:52 am at 3:52 am #681750
Nothing is untzniusdig, UNLESS it is conducted in an untzniusdig way.
Some things are inherently untzniusdik.March 14, 2010 3:18 am at 3:18 am #681751plaidMember
Out of total curiousity (no cynicism), how would a rally be considered untznius?March 14, 2010 4:39 am at 4:39 am #681753melechalmakloMember
volvie: agreed.March 14, 2010 5:17 am at 5:17 am #681754True Bas YisroelMember
It doesn’t pas for a Bas Yisroel to be at any rally no matter what!
Being at a rally, and having excuses for her presence, is only a way of rationalizing what she had no business going to!March 14, 2010 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #681755
Brov Am Hadras Melech
so you think that a girl shouldn’t go to the Siyum HaShas?
(btw, i don’t care either way, i just want to see what people think)
I personally avoid going because i don’t like crowds.March 14, 2010 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #681756
A siyum is indoors and seated, thus incomparable to a rally where one parades themselves around.March 14, 2010 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #681757Yanky55Participant
So according to Volvie, a girl should never take a walk outside, because she is then “parading herself around”…..March 14, 2010 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #681758haifagirlParticipant
Don’t give Volvie a hard time. He has who to rely on. Rambam said women should leave the house only once, or at most twice, a month.March 14, 2010 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #681759
Yanky, I have no idea why you would attribute that to me. Nothing I said would so indicate.
Perhaps you were thinking of the Rambam in Hilchos Ishus (13:11) or Shulchan Aruch (73:1). Although they say she shouldn’t go outside too much, they do not say never.March 14, 2010 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #681760
BTW the lubavitcher Rebbe also said that girls shouldn’t go to demonstrationsMarch 14, 2010 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #681761
Going to a rally is not the same thing as parading herself around. BTW, are any of the guys who agree with Volvie, at least THEMSELVES going to these rallies for good causes? Volvie, how often do women attend any typical siyum (indoors or not)?March 14, 2010 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #681762
It depends on how you define “good causes.” Using your earlier example, I certainly wouldn’t include the Israel Day Parade in that category. OTOH, if you are talking about a Tehilim Rally, where you have masses of Klal Yisroel coming out and davening for an important cause, I’m all for it.March 14, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #681763dvorakMember
Given how crowded some of these rallies can get, it would probably be better for girls to stay home unless there’s a mechitza up or something. Or maybe we should ONLY allow girls to go and make the men stay home, since too many men don’t know how to behave in a protest situation…March 14, 2010 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #681764
dvorak- great suggestion. 🙂March 14, 2010 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #681765Yanky55Participant
You stated that a siyum is indoors and seated (which would be okay). This clearly implies that walking outdoors is not okay.March 15, 2010 12:01 am at 12:01 am #681766
Yanky, outdoors isn’t necessarily okay all the time (per the quoted sources above.) What I never said was that they can “never” go outside, which is how you put it.March 15, 2010 3:37 am at 3:37 am #681767
Oh brother, here we go again… And what exactly is wrong with showing support for Eretz Yisroel? Never mind, I already know. “It seems to me I’ve heard this one before…It’s from an old, familiar score.”March 15, 2010 3:38 am at 3:38 am #681768
There have been some rowdy rallies at indoor arenas where everyone had a seat (OK not “yeshivish” ones).
How did indoor/outdoor became the deciding factor?March 15, 2010 4:33 am at 4:33 am #681769
Why not??? Rallies are are a good place to find a shidduch….
wait a second…… I think I can solve the shidduch crises…….
Rallies against the shidduch crises!!!
Shidduch Rallies. Wow!!!
Posting our problems on YWN really bears results.
Please stay tuned for our upcoming First Annual Shidduch Rally in NYC.
(R.S.V.P. as suggested above ;-))March 15, 2010 5:00 am at 5:00 am #681770
Whether it is indoors or outdoors is certainly one of the deciding factors.March 15, 2010 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #681771
bain hasedorim- that’s very funny. and of course you will only go bein hasedorim.March 15, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #681772
I am taking the high road and not responding further about this. I forgot for the moment the hashkafa of some of the CR readers.March 15, 2010 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #681773rashkebehabMember
the act of rallying is to show oneself at the rally, in support of some cause. this is an act that is not tzniusdik.March 15, 2010 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #681774TumsMember
rashkebehab is 100% correct.March 15, 2010 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #681775
I still dont understand why the overiding factor is if the gathering together is indoors or outdoors. If it is inherently untsniusdik, why does it matter if you have a seat or if you are standing in a square somewhere?March 16, 2010 12:39 am at 12:39 am #681777
I could not possibly disagree more with those who are opposed to females participating in a rally. Soviet Jewry, most of whom were not frum Yidden, saw an end to their oppression because of our male and female attendance. If you base your worthiness of a given rally on the “frumness” of the cause, then there will be many neshamos whom you might neglect to help in your holding fast to yuor position. there is nothing untzniusdig for ANY Jew to fulfill the mitzvah of “lo sa-amohd al dom reiyacha.” It is untzniusdig for people to BEHAVE immodestly, and that can happen, indoors, outdoors, in Yeshivah, at shul, in the park,and yes, even at a Tehillim rally, if the person engaging in immodesty is there for the wrong reasons and acting improperly.March 16, 2010 12:44 am at 12:44 am #681778
The rallies against the Soviet Union were counterproductive and harmed the cause for their freedom by antagonizing the USSR with anti-Soviet protesters chaining themselves in front of their U.N mission – rather than encouraging it to change their policies. It was the behind the scenes work by askonim working with U.S. policy makers, who didn’t need to stick their faces in front of cameras, that accomplished much for Soviet Jewry.March 16, 2010 4:21 am at 4:21 am #681779
My wife has been at “get rallies” (basicly, they stood outside someones house with signs that said things like “give your wife a get”) that were held with the haskamos of neighborhood rabbonim. Ill be sure to let her know that the next time she gets such a call, she should be aware that the YWN CR poskim have ruled it is assur.March 16, 2010 7:02 am at 7:02 am #681780
jphone; Oy vey! She was holding up a sign too! well that’s already too much!
unless the sign was bigger than her. Then it would count as a Mechtiza & even
the YWN CR poskim would have to agree that it is ok.
Metziut; Yup! the rallies will only be held bein_hasdorim, Bein_hazmanim!!!
spread the word!March 16, 2010 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #681782
Volvie – well, OK then…. I think that’s why Chamberlain thought it was such a good idea to appease Hitler, because THAT would stop him from hurting Jews. Stop worrying so much about what antagonizes the goyishe velt, and think about all the lives that were SAVED because we put pressure ont he Soviets. Behind the scenes negotiation always has to happen, but that negotiation happens because of the public pressure. Rallies are a good way to icnrease the pressure and men and women are BOTH chayavim in pikuach nefesh, whether physical or spiritual.March 16, 2010 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #681783the.nurseMember
agree with oomis1105 100% hereMarch 16, 2010 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #681784
oomis – No one is appeasing. When you have the Avi Weiss’ of the world chaining themselves to the Soviet U.N. Mission, he is antagonizing the Soviets. A world power will not respond to foreign antagonist seeking to publicly berate them. There is a reason diplomacy is called “diplomacy.” An authortarian regime, like the Soviets, are not responsive to uprisings or protesters. See the events in 1956 Communist Hungary for an example of how they respond to it.
What those anti-Soviet rallies DID do, was antogonize the Soviets into further mistreating Jewish refusenik’s, such as Natan Sharansky, in the Siberian gulog.March 16, 2010 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #681785
Because the Soviets needed to be ANTAGONIZED before hurting the Jews?????????????
Puhleeze! And Avi Weiss may not be your cup of tea(or mine, either, in some ways) necessarily, but what did YOU do to help free SJ? At least I went to every rally there was and made my voice heard along with all the other Jews who were there to show solidarity. Even if it did NOT help (and I do not buy that), it helped the people who were present, because it made them walk the walk as well as talk the talk. And that can never be bad for us, because it helps us to grow as human beings, to fight for something other than our own personal needs.March 16, 2010 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #681786
“Even if it did NOT help”
Feel-goodism may make you feel good, but it damaged the Jews suffering in the Soviet gulogs, when their Communist jailers let out additional venom on our brethren there in response to protests on their behalf.March 17, 2010 2:30 am at 2:30 am #681787GabbyMember
Absolutely… every person counts… no matter which gender… it is very important that Jews show achdut at rallies and how can we all be together if all the women are at homeMarch 17, 2010 2:34 am at 2:34 am #681788
A woman’s place is at home.March 17, 2010 6:09 am at 6:09 am #681789
volvie; Not every woman is under the same opinion or practice
as I hope you are well aware.
It it is better for a Yotzanis to be at rallies for a yiddishe cause,
Then to be in other places that are not only not productive to their ruchnius,
but detrimental to it.
I’m sure all the Koilel guys who have their wives working two jobs
so they can learn, agree with you that “A woman’s place is at home.”
Please go show them “Kol Kvuda Bas Melech Pnima”
and if they have an excuse the same excuse could be applied to going to
a rally for a mitzvah!March 17, 2010 11:59 am at 11:59 am #681790
Please go show them “Kol Kvuda Bas Melech Pnima” and if they have an excuse the same excuse could be applied to going to a rally
b_h: A b’dieved cannot be applied in all circumstances. Yes, sometimes a b’dieved is necessary. That isn’t license to use such b’dieved as an excuse in all circumstances.March 17, 2010 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #681791
volvie; Most if not all Yidden I know go to a rally for the cause,
L’sheim Mizvah. They really want to help,& believe & hope it will help.
Telling these people not to go, for it is not proper will only take away
from their ratzon to help. What will they do instead of being active &
going to rallies? I don’t know.
I’m not sure they’ll go home & bake cookies for charity.
They might go hang out etc.. Most of our rebellious youth have no problem
investing their time & strength to help others.
They just need & like to be where the action is.March 17, 2010 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #681792
b_h: When was the last time going to a rally was a “mitzvah”? A Tehilim “rally” perhaps; not the Israeli Day Parade and other such nonsense. And that is not even getting into all the intermingling etc.March 17, 2010 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #681793
Israeli Day Parade?!! C”V! Us religious yidden do NOT support a government
that is against our Jewish Religion, heritage, & traditions.
I am talking about a rally thats an actual mitzvah, Like demonstrating the desecration of our ancestors holy burial sites, a Respective “NON violent”, protest against
the chilul Shabbos going on in a religious neighborhood.
If there would be someone wrongly arrested and imprisoned etc….
Most of our guys are in Yeshiva, working, I think a drastically larger amount
of our women & young women have the time to represent more of our nation.
(Then again with the koilel wives B”H….. perhaps not.)March 18, 2010 12:06 am at 12:06 am #681794
b_h: Ahhhh my chaver, you shudda been clear about that in the first place! Of course a rally like you describe is L’shem Mitzvah. Protecting kevorim and Shabbos Kodesh is indeed holy and worthwhile cause to rally for.
That being said, surely you do realize the Gedolim shlita that call for these holy rallies are very specific in that it is to be attended by men only. And for good reason. Who are we to argue against the Gedolim? Aside from the fact it is common sense that the Gedolim desire it to only be men for the many reasons outlined earlier.
You did realize only men attend these rallies for a reason I’m sure.March 18, 2010 12:50 am at 12:50 am #681795
Anachnu Bimkoimeinu, V’heim B’makom Acher.
B’makom Sh’ein Ish.(literally)March 18, 2010 2:33 am at 2:33 am #681796
The whole concept of Kol Kvuda Bas Melech Pnima has a very important pre-requisite:
Men must take the obligation to support their families seriously.
Every boy must have a plan for providing for his future family whether in Meleches Chol or Kodesh.March 18, 2010 2:55 am at 2:55 am #681797
One isn’t a prerequisite upon the other. Each are independent obligations.March 18, 2010 3:41 am at 3:41 am #681798
Should a woman without a supporting husband stay inside and starve?March 18, 2010 4:22 am at 4:22 am #681799
Back to the subject:
“Like demonstrating the desecration of our ancestors holy burial sites”
A rally to defend Jews against those who are out to kill Jews and drive them out of their homeland (c’v) always takes precedence.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.