October 26, 2011 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1105075
who said everything in society that develops in society is religious in nature?
although being called xmas trees and xmas lights and putting them up in december is a bit of a clue
perhaps all saints day might be a clue also
i dont know the history of halloween
but that the fact that its not in their official doctrines is meaningless
that was my only point.October 26, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1105076
if you will briefly let mod-80 know why you want to contact him he might be agreeable
but mod-80 has learned to keep private communications to a stark minimum, for a variety of reasons.October 26, 2011 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1105077
if it has anything to do with your previous screenname
moderator-80 is well aware of thatOctober 26, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #1105078nitpickerParticipant
someone used the phrase “Thousands of Gedolim”
Was that a typo? it sounds like an oxymoronOctober 26, 2011 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1105079
i thought an oxymoron was a guy who tries to climb mt everest without any oxygen cannistersOctober 26, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1105080sheinMember
I’m still waiting for real documentation from you, gavra, for the one source you claimed. But here is a small portion and partial list of the multiples I referred to: R. Ahron Kotler, Satmar Rebbe, R. Hutner, R. Schorr, Klausenberger Rebbe, R. Svei, Skulener Rebbe, Bobover Rebbe, R. A. Miller, Viener Rov.October 26, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1105081apushatayidParticipant
Regarding a practice that developed within a society. Things might have become associated with certain holidays but it doesn’t make them religious activities. What comes to mind quickly is the “thanksgiving tradition” of NFL football in Dallas and Detroit, NBA basketball on December 25th and college bowl games on january 1st. I am no maven, but was suggesting that perhaps going door to door with a bucket to collect candies from your neighbors might be one such activity, as such it is not a religious practice even if it is associated with a “holiday”.
Regarding my request to contact Mod80 whoever he or she might be, it has nothing to do with establishing “contact” or a relationship in any way, nor does it have anything to do with my previous “name”, I want to continue a discussion that was closed, likely because of comments I made, to get answers to questions I won’t pose here for obvious reasons. If he/she is concerned about privacy, perhaps he/she can create an email address that is completely anonymous for this purpose. Of course if mr or mrs or perhaps ms 80 is completely uninterested in continuing said discussion, I understand as well and will drop it.November 1, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1105083Feif UnParticipant
My wife bought two large bags of candy for yesterday, as we were sure that people would be ringing our bell. Sure enough, they came in droves. Our two bags weren’t enough. We put a sign on our door saying “Sorry, we ran out of candy!”
We did not let our kids see it – we put them to bed early so they wouldn’t want to go get candy also. We just gave every kid some candy with a smile, told them to enjoy it, and wished them a good night.October 31, 2012 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1105084
My porch light was on (my neighbor and I like to keep it on b/c it’s dark and have to walk up stairs so some trick or treaters came and I opened the door forgetting it is Halloween, so I said “sorry I don’t have any candy” so they just leftNovember 1, 2012 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1105085shmendrickMember
Halloween teaches children the wrong morals and values.
Halloween is a holiday about getting. Lhavdil, on Purim we are giving – shlach monos and matonos l’evyonim.
We should never glorify scaring others and we should never glorify anything contrary to service to Hashem, such as demons, death, graves, or gore (unless it’s Al Gore)…November 1, 2012 2:48 am at 2:48 am #1105086147Participant
I already gave out my candy on Simchas Toroh.
Meanwhile B’H Sandy has defused the celebrations pertaining this pagan holiday.November 1, 2012 5:22 am at 5:22 am #1105087🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
In the public school where I work they have special activities for the children of other religions who chose not to be a part of Halloween activities. It is usually “witnesses” and muslims.November 1, 2012 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1105088zahavasdadParticipant
This year it was irrelevant because it was basically cancelled
However in normal years its not right to put your beliefs on some little kid who only wants candy. If dont want to answer the door and keep the lights off (Like you are not home) that is fine , but its very different to open the door and tell some little girl dressed as cinderella, I dont celebrate Halloween and I have no candy for you. Its a tremondous Chilul Hashem to do that.
Again dont want to be bothered, Shut off all lights and pretend you are not home and if they ring the door bell dont answerNovember 1, 2012 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #1105089
we totally forgot it was halloween, and I heard knocking so I opened the door
I don’t see a chillul Hashem involvedNovember 2, 2012 3:45 am at 3:45 am #1105090WhiteberryMember
I’m having a hard time connecting the modern “holiday” of putting on a costume and collecting candy, with any pagan religious practices.October 20, 2013 2:28 am at 2:28 am #1105091TheGoqParticipant
an almost that time again bumpOctober 20, 2013 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1105092sharpMember
I personally don’t think that giving candies to your neighbor’s children is the same as celebrating or observing the holiday. They’re kids and they are not necessarily aware that their Jewish neighbors don’t keep their holidays and I think it would make a positive impression on them if you give them some sweets instead of sending them away empty-handed.
Also remember that neighbors are neighbors and often they’re here to stay. So being polite and courteous to them and friendly to their kids when they go trick or treating is probably the right thing to do. But that’s just my opinion.October 20, 2013 2:49 am at 2:49 am #1105093
Whiteberry may be correct. It’s unclear whether our secularized American holidays bear any semblance to pagan roots.
Without getting into that issue, I’d say that if the saintly R’ Avraham Pam and others made a kiddush hashem by being kindhearted to non-Jewish children, so should we, by offering them candy.
What I’ve actually began doing in recent years is purchasing Hershey’s chocolate items after the gentile holidays (Halloween, Christmas, Valentine’s Day) when they go on sale 50=75% off and I’ve used them for shalach manos and our shul gives this candy to kids on shabbos morning (I buy whatever is OU-D, or Kof-K D, and since our shabbos kiddush luncheons are always dairy, I don’t see a problem giving a kid candy in the shape of an egg, pumpkin, or tin soldier).October 20, 2013 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1105094akupermaParticipant
There is no secular basis for Halloween (a.k.a. All Saints Eve). It’s unlike holidays such as Thanksgiving which is arguably secular (the government declares it), and much closer to Dec. 25. Whether seen in its pre-Christian/pagan original, or in the slightly repurposed form of modern Christians (as “All Saints Eve”) it is clearly Avodah Zarah and the way of doing this Avodah Zarah, and giving candy is part of the Avodah Zarah (not unlike the Jewish custom of giving out candy on Purim, which is clearly a religious obligation regardless of any secular connotations).October 20, 2013 4:02 am at 4:02 am #1105095
So R’ Avraham Pam, zt”l, was oiver on avodah zarah, chas ve shalom, since he joyfully gave candy to trick-or-treaters?October 20, 2013 4:38 am at 4:38 am #1105096OutsiderMember
If a Chassid walked around my city, they would get candy for sure!
But seriously, why pass out candy when you can buy it and keep it all for yourself?October 20, 2013 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1105097RedlegParticipant
Why wouldn’t the secularization of Halloween be analogous to passeling an avodas zorah which Gentiles can do? I therefore think that the issue avodas zorah does not apply to the modern observance of Halloween. However, there is still an issue of chukas haGoyim.
Although trick or treating is rare in our communities I think that one should give treats to any kids who do show up mipnei darchei hashalom. It goes, I think, without saying that Jewish children should not participate.
P.S. To all of you want to take me to task for “paskening without a license”, please note the qualifiers, “I think” and “why wouldn’t”.October 20, 2013 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1105098oomisParticipant
Just because someone celebrates a pagan holiday by extorting candy from their neighbors, does not mean that I have to be party to their pagan ritual. As for Darchei Sholom, I have never had a problem with gently explaining to my neighbors’ kids (who moved away recently) the first couple of years, that while we hope they have a fun time trick or treating, we do not celebrate their holiday. I always told them to be safe and not eat anything without showing it to their parents first. The kids understood, and I always bought chocolate fom them during their candy sales (OU-d), so they saw we were not being mean-spirited and respected our feelings.October 20, 2013 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1105099Bookworm120Participant
@oomis – I, too, do not partake of their pagan holiday. They can’t on the one hand make a big fuss about those “evil pagans,” and then celebrate their same rituals, for crying out loud!
Our neighborhood’s standard is, if the driveway light isn’t on, then you’re not supposed to go to them. People used to be majorly offended that I don’t wish to add to their dentist’s bills, but now they know to keep quiet about it.October 29, 2013 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1105100TheGoqParticipant
RebumpOctober 29, 2013 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1105102DaMosheParticipant
I buy candy to give out to children in my neighborhood. If R’ Pam zt”l could do it, so can I. My non-Jewish neighbors are very nice to me. They’ve helped me out on Shabbos, like when my Shabbos clock didn’t work correctly during the summer and my AC was off, with 8 gusts coming over for lunch. My neighbor turned it on for me. Once when I was sick, coming off a surgery, and a neighbor saw me getting into my car to go pick up my medication from the pharmacy, he told me, “You just had surgery! You can’t go! I’ll pick it up for you!” And so he did.
If R’ Pam saw nothing wrong with giving out candy, I can do something for the children of my neighbors, to make them happy. My kids know that we don’t celebrate it, but we’re still nice, decent neighbors, who can give out candy to those who do celebrate it.October 29, 2013 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1105103WIYMember
Well unless you intend on buying the cholov stam or non Kosher nosh you are wasting your time and efforts. They have no interest in rugalech and viennese crunch.October 29, 2013 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1105104
DaMoshe, If I could, I’d shake your hand right now. You exhibit the kinds of behaviors that Jews (Especially religious ones) need to exhibit. We must be proactive in fostering good relations with our neighbors. We enjoy living in a free society relatively free of anti-semitism. The least we can do is give a kid a Hershey’s bar or something like that. Rav Pam’s rebbitzen made popcorn bags for the kids who’d come trick-or-treating. And while we wouldn’t want our kids to go trick-or-treating, not giving trick-or-treaters candy shows a standoffish, arrogant attitude. It also furthers anti-semitism, since it makes Jews look cheap and cold-hearted. I enjoy the day, the costumes, etc. And it gives me nachas to give children candy (I give the kids OU-D candy, and whatever is leftover, I eat myself or we give to kids in my shul).October 29, 2013 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1105105OhTeeDeeParticipant
does the origin of the holiday matter? in 2013 US it is about dressing up and getting candy (same reason kids love purim, truth be told)October 29, 2013 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #1105106🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
We used to give nosh to kids who rang our bell, but now they stopped coming. The public school hands out notes telling parents to only let their children go trick-or-treating to stores and family, so since we fit neither criteria they don’t come.October 31, 2014 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1105107
for all thos4 that say yes to giving to trick or treaters, if you live in brooklyn (which you probably dont) how can you give the candy in a reshus harabim (no eruv), and if you leave ur light on for the people in your house to get in on shabbos it might throw the trick or treaters offOctober 31, 2014 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1105108viyoel moisheMember
@coffee addict there is an Eruv in Brooklyn.once someone threw an egg at my window for political reasonsOctober 31, 2014 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1105109
they probably held of the eruv, but most dontOctober 31, 2014 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1105111viyoel moisheMember
In bp %85 of people carryNovember 2, 2014 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1105112
We gave out gefilte fish.November 2, 2014 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1105113
But it wasn’t Monday this year.November 2, 2014 3:48 am at 3:48 am #1105114
We didn’t give out gefilte fish when it was on Monday.November 2, 2014 3:51 am at 3:51 am #1105115
Why not on Monday?November 2, 2014 3:52 am at 3:52 am #1105116
Who eats gefilte fish on Monday?November 2, 2014 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1105117
But you’re not eating it, just giving it away.October 12, 2015 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1105119
Giving out candy is not celebrating the holiday. Threatening people for candy is. When children threaten to harm you or your property, it doesn’t really matter what is motivating them.October 12, 2015 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #1105120
For all those so knowledgeable: This holiday is NOT Christian in any way. that is no to say it’s not Avodah Zara because it is a Native American Avodah Zara. This holiday did not exist (and maybe still does not exist) in Europe. Proof it is not Christian. In fact, as far as i know it is only celebrated in America.
Rav Pam giving out candy is proof he had no idea this holiday had anything to do with Avodah Zara. In addition to the fact many young people don’t know that it was DANGEROUS not to back then. Yes dangerous. In Brooklyn. There could’ve have been many different kind of consequences, depending on the type of neighbors you had, or even the type of friends THEY had that specific year. Using Rav Pam as an example When he lived in not such a safe neighborhood shows that in those years it was an inyan of PIKUACH NEFESH.
Another reason I once herd from somebody who claims when he asked Rav Pam why he was doing it if the Sakana was not so bad any more, Rav Pam said, there were Jewish children in public school who are going around at least they will once taste something kosher and know that kosher food is not so bad. Also maybe they wont fear the religious people so much. (for those who remember what the attitude was toward European immigrants back then.)October 13, 2015 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1105121yehudayonaParticipant
“Native American” usually means American Indian. Are you claiming that American Indians celebrated Halloween?
As the name indicates, it’s the evening (e’en) of All Hallows Day, also known as All Saints Day. It has been celebrated in Europe (the British Isles, at least) for centuries. The famous Scottish poet Robert Burns wrote a poem about it in 1785.October 13, 2015 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1105122
For one thing “Native Americans” do not want to be called “American Indians”. They rightfully claim, Columbus made a mistake when calling central America “West Indies”. They had nothing to do with India and therefore are not Indian nor “American Indian”.
A poem written in 1785 is after the British came to America. So could be they learned it from them, or he plainly wrote a poem about something in America without writing it explicitly its source.October 13, 2015 1:03 am at 1:03 am #1105123mw13Participant
From goeurope.about.com, brought to you via googling “halloween in Europe”:
Question: Do they celebrate Halloween in Europe?
Answer: Why yes, they do. In fact, the whole Halloween thing seems to have be the results of combining the ancient Roman Feralia, commemorating the passing of the dead, with the Celtic Samhain. It seems to have passed from Europe to the US with Irish immigrants…
Halloween didn’t take its present form until All Saints Day was declared by Pope Gregory IV to replace the pagan festival. The night before became All Hallows Eve and people went door to door begging for food (or soul cakes) to feed the poor. Of course, things were tweaked a bit during the time between then and now…October 13, 2015 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1105124zogt_besserParticipant
I want to understand why giving candy to kids at your door is not considered celebrating Halloween, which as a holiday with pagan origins, is therefore assur to celebrate according to the rema, gra, etc. If one were to give shalach manos on purim, limashal, this is considered “celebrating” purim. why the difference here?October 13, 2015 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1105125
Because “trick or treat” is a threat.October 13, 2015 4:30 am at 4:30 am #1105126zogt_besserParticipant
you can just not answer the door. or only answer for kids accompanied by a parent, if you are really afraid of a prank. point is, in most scenarios, there is very little fear of eivah or concern for darkei shalom.October 14, 2015 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1105127
ZB: What you’re saying is true today. But, some are bringing proof from Rav Pam and then times were different.October 14, 2015 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1105128popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Sure, same as any other Monday night.
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