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… be allowed to send his kids to yeshiva? Or be a member of a shul? Or be allowed to participate in the community (or receive community aid and support) in any way?
What if he actually (unsuccessfully) attempted murder?
The Wolf
Make sure he gets some medical help asap!!!!!!!! He is a dangerous person.
The only Halachic ramifications as far as an accidental killing [i.e. if Chas Choliloh someone is run over by a car you are driving] is that a Kohen {who was driving that car} couldn’t perform Birkas Kohanim [This week’s Parsha both in Israel & in the Diaspora]
Very strange question.
Do you know someone like this???
Wolf:
Are you asking about yourself?
Murder is an extremely rare, almost unheard of, issue in the frum community.
Compare that to society.
Wolf, How would anyone know what someone else is planning?
I would suspect that no one responded because it is a totally inane question.
Such “what if” questions are childish. And if you were using it to try to prove a point, it proves no point.
This is a funny thread wolf you kill me.
Wolf -So true everything that you said. So true.
Is it the child’s fault though? If the parent is contemplating murder, it probably has zero to do with the child.
his kids are not responsible for his thought or actions, therefore you can not penalize his kids by not allowing them into yeshiva- nor should you let your children know, because then it will get around school and these poor kids will be mocked, ridiculed, and ostracized. and don’t say that doing so will cause him to seek help etc. because someone as messed up as to attempt murder or even entertain the thought has some real issues- and doesn’t think of others. but i would advise that you try and distance yourself from that person and confide in a well respected rav about this issue.
Ohr Chodosh:- Murder is an extremely rare, almost unheard of, issue in the frum community.
I must amend what Ohr Chodosh stated. Murder is Non-Existent in the Frum community. If someone murders, by definition, s/he is NOT part of the Frum community.
Wolf and others: Can you PLEASE be mindful to say NY yeshivos or NY shuls. I am very unsettled by peoples habit to reference the Jews by stating what is done in one small corner of the universe. It is unfair to call something a Jewish problem when it hardly applies in many other Jewish communities around the world. Maybe you should consider moving West.
syag- its only a small corner? really? it feels like the center of the universe! guess i’m a typical nyer!! lol! sry…..
The vast majority of frum American Yidden live in the NY Metro Area.
Its pretty irrelevant how many Jews live there. My point is ONLY that people should not look out their front window and tell people what “Jews” do. It worries me to think that someone less affiliated will read these statements written by NYers about Yeshivas and shuls and have false negative impressions that it is inherently a Jewish issue. When I have a problem in my shul I cannot call it a community problem. When I have a complaint against the community, it would be presumptous for me to consider it a “midwestern” problem, let alone a global one. I would need to state it as a local issue, or a local issue that I have heard from others etc. Just to be on the safe side with motze shem rah issues, especially since we are speaking negatively, we should consider who we are including in our broad strokes.
Bygirl: lol. That was why I specifically said “of the universe” 🙂
I wasnt ticked off. I hear you and others express pain about the way shuls and yeshivas and communities treat people and label people and black ball people and I wanted to clarify that B”H this is not the case everywhere. It is not something that yeshivas do, it is something that some yeshivas do. I think I was pretty clear and dont know why you translated it to be anger but maybe that just proves I am a fool who should never have thought my ideas were worth sharing in the first place.
Wolf,
In your hypothetical case, is the child likely to have a negative influence on his/her schoolmates based on the father’s wickedness?
My response to the first paragraph of your post is to strongly disagree with the premise that a home such as you describe is unlikely to produce a child who is a bad influence.
As far as the second part of your post, I would hope that not not only would such a person be ostracized, he would be, more importantly, watched very carefully.
The idea that a home with a TV or unfiltered internet will always be strictly off-limits to the children (young adults or small children) is highly unlikely. A Yeshiva cannot risk an entire class of tinokos shel beis rabban being negatively influenced by one child in the class who lives in a home with TV or unfiltered internet. That child can literally bring multiple innocent children in his class off the derech with his negative influences from his contamination to television or unfiltered internet rachmana l’tzlon.
The linfer this thread continues, the more my earlier point is proven.
straw man
Suicide isn’t intrinsically worse than murder. Its just that a suicide leaves no opportunity for teshuva, while a murderer can do teshuva.
Someone “considering” suicide c’v can be dissuaded or change his mind. He should not be shunned. Nor should someone considering murder. He should be dissuaded and he should do teshuva.
Wolf,
For all practical purposes, no, because someone contemplating suicide is highly unlikely to be doing so to be evil. He’s probably mentally ill, or at least very distraught.
Silly premise as it is well known that it is in very specific cases of mebaid atzmo lodaas that yo would say they have no chelek in olam habah. Most cases are when someone suffers mental illness. Perhaps you think we should ostracize the family members of someone suffering mental illness? That would be typically hypocritical of you.
Another flaw in your argument is that the reason why people distance themselves in all your examples is because of how they or their children may be affected by the actions of the “evildoer” which clearly does not apply here. (don’t throw in emotions here that is not a valid reason).
There are opportunities that a suicide can do teshuva (not all methods of suicide produce instantaneous death) and yet we still say that they have no chelek in olam habah.
Those type of suicdes, where he may have done teshuva, such as if he sufficates himself with a bag – we in fact do assume he did teshuva (ie after he could no longer remove the bag but was still concious enough to do teshuva). And in such a suicide we dont bury him in the outskirts of the cemetary, as we would if it were an instant suicide.
Instead of commiting suicide they could just daven that they should die which we see is mutar from Yonah / Choni hameagel / Rebbi Yochanan
Wolf, I glanced at your profile and noticed that youve been fascinated with the topic of suicide for years now.
Why?
contemplating sudicide is very commendable. One of the gerrer seforim (can’t remember which) says that really a person should want to die to be reunited with the Eybishter but it is a mitzvah to live. Reb Yisroel Salanter z”l says (Ohr Yisroel) that taavas hachaim is the yetzer hara.
Chulent: Look at that Siman in the SH”A and all the later Poskim and T’shuvos (except the Besamim Rosh who we ignore but pay special attention to the Chassam Sofer-I don’t remember which Siman off the top of my head). Lema’aseh, we never treat anyone as a M’abeid Atzmo L’da’as for the burial differences. The cases in which it can happen are incredibly, incredibly limited.
The Chasam Sofer says IF there were extenuating circumstances (i.e. mental illness) that prompted the suicide, then we do not treat it as a halachic suicide. The CS does not exclude the possibility of some cases falling under the halachic penalties prescribed for a suicide.
Nowadays it is extremely rare for a rabbi to rule that a suicide falls into the category of ???? ???? ???? and not in the category of ???? ???? ??? ????. This is the kind of thing that shimush talmidei chachamim teaches a person.
Wolf,
“Friends and family of people who commit or attempt suicide are certainly affected by the person’s actions. How you can say otherwise is quite puzzling.”
The parenthetical addition at the end of the comment was specifically to address this. It was obvious you would mention it and is clearly not a factor in the discussion. Classic disregard of the fifth chelek.
Chulent: That’s not the important Chasam Sofer. He says that Kavod Hachayim beats not doing Aveilus, and that if an “important family” will be Bazui because of it then you do a normal Kevura and everything. Since we can’t really define what an “important family” is, almost every Rov Lema’aseh will say to not treat it like a suicide so as not to embarrass the family.
Well in NY everyone needs a pull to get to a school and hopefully this person wouldn’t have anyone to help him get kids into schools. But if they move out of town like syag mentioned they would be taken to a school. Case in point D*ek.
Wolf -“The Wolf – be allowed to send his kids to yeshiva? Or be a member of a shul? Or be allowed to participate in the community (or receive community aid and support) in any way?
What if he actually (unsuccessfully) attempted murder?”
What if he committed murder?
I think Jews would ex-communicate these people, but noone believes that so and so could possibly do such a thing. We live in a world of denial and if you go tell people, no matter how high up they are, that so and so did a terrible crime, eg. killing, molestation, etc., they just don’t believe you.
These days, he isn’t an attempted murderer. Every single Aveirah in the world can be pinned on some sort of medical problem – for example a theif suffers from “kleptomania”… i don’t need to go into details. I’m sure within the next few years they will come up with an excuse why it is okay to murder.
And to answer your question, Wolf – No, it is not to have an attempted murderer in a shul – he should be put in a cheirem, to say the least – if possible locked up in a prison or hospital somewhere. Or go to therapy (there is therapy available for every type of aveira as well)
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