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Why is it that suicide is looked upon as worse than murder in Jewish tradition?
It’s interesting that we find that suicides are (by strict letter of the law) treated worse than murderers. When a murderer dies, he can be buried in a Jewish cemetery, his family sits shiva, etc. But none of that applies to a suicide. In addition, Josephus tells us that the defenders of Masada chose to murder one another (to the last man) rather than commit suicide.
But why is that? Intuitively, I would think that while it is bad to do something bad to yourself, it is far worse to do it to someone else.
So, what’s the reason behind this?
When discussing, please keep in mind that I’m not advocating suicide. I understand suicide = bad. I’m merely curious as to the reason for its place on the moral continuum as compared to murder.
In addition, I’m not looking for a discussion on suicide in contemporary society where many suicides are committed by people suffering from depression. I’m talking about a case where a person is in full possession of his faculties when he chooses to die.
That said, why is suicide so much worse than murder?
The Wolf
Both are strictly forbidden- however, if one murders we are supposed to judge that person favorably that they have repented. When one takes their own life there usually isn’t any time to repent.
its worse to kill your brother than a stranger. you can decide why.
the closer one is to you the worse it is to do him an injustice.
no one is closer to you than the Jew that is called by your name.
someone who kills himself may think he’s escaping pain in this world or i don’t know but he kills himself in Olam Habba too, he cuts himself off in all ways, physically and spiritually. He has no chelek.
For one thing incentives matter. Murder can be disincentivized in this world through punishment in this world. Suicide cannot.
More hashkaficly, suicide (at least outside of the context of mental illness) aside from being wrong in its own right, is also by definition an act of poor middos, as it involves kefiyas hatov to hashem and to one’s community for all of the reasons they give for a person to stay in this world. The same does not follow with murder.
The answer is simple. It is known that a Ganev is worse than a Gazlen. Common sense dictates that a shoplifter should be less-severely punished than an armed bank robber. However, the Torah doesn’t [always] work with emotions. A Ganev demonstrates that he isn’t G-d fearing – he hides from people but not from Hakadosh Baruch Hu. A Gazlen is a desperate individual who simply needs money. He places his pressing needs before anxiety, therefore being better off.
Same here. Doing harm to oneself is equal to harming someone else. One has no right to do damage to his body. Therefore one who murders someone out of temper or panic is better off than someone who kills himself to ‘get off the hook’. A murderer simply forgets what he is doing at the moment and isn’t necessarily doing so in defiance of G-d , whereas a suicidal person displays his ignorance and disbelief in the world-to-come. This makes the latter a Kofer in Hakadosh Baruch Hu and loses the benefit of forgiveness in the world to come. The Kevura and Shiva cleans the Neshama from stains gathered over the years and enable it access to the world-to-come. A non-believer doesn’t deserve that benefit.
It should be noted that many Achronim (including the Chasam Sofer) basically scrap this Halacha (and claim that it doesn’t apply nowadays) given that one usually regrets his actions before dying.
Dave: I believe the poskim only “scrap” it depending on the method of suicide. If the method of suicide didn’t cause instant death, we assume he did teshuva before dying even though he was longer able to prevent himself from dying. If he caused the death instantaneously, there was no time for teshuva.
We use the assumption for teshuva to determine how to treat him post-death. Obviously Hashem knows whether there really was teshuva for how he is treated in Beis Din shel Maaleh.
Max, I’d love to agree, however they don’t say that. The Chasam Sofer (YD 326) states that we look away completely. His examples are methods that lead to instant death. Also look in Parashas Mordechai (25) and Besamim Rosh (345). The Gilyon Maharsha 348 (Reb Shlomo Eiger) says that someone that drowns himself has a couple of seconds to do Teshuva. The Maharam Shik (YD 346) however says that the Halacha (in Masechet Smachos) is only where one dies instantly.
Unfortunately we have had suicides in the community in the past couple of years and all were paskened that they be buried in regular cemeteries and the families should sit shiva as they normally would. They were all viewed as “cholim” at the time of the decision and that the neshoma did teshuva before the actual death.
i’m pretty sure that any person who commits suicide now a days is considered to be mentally ill and can therefore have a normal levaya and burial…
No one who commits suicide can be thought to be inhis right mind. The instinct for survival is very powerful in all of us, and if R”L someone feels such a sense of hopelessness that he cannot see a way out of that despair, it is clear he is emotionally unwell.
There are two other reasons (cited in the Poskim) on why a person who commits suicide than a murderer.
One reason is that death is the ultimate atonement for one’s sins. If it is through that method however, that he sins, it cannot serve as a Kaparah.
The second reason is quite an interesting one. The Shiva etc. is only so that the family should be bereaved. A family that a loved one committed suicide cannot be deprived from their pain therefore the customs do not apply.
mosheemes2:
What kind of hakaras hatov do you expect the suicide VICTIM to have from his community?
His community obviously abandoned him, saw him on the downslide but willingly chose to do nothing, and made him feel like an oismentch. Where does hakaras hatov come in??
People who realize that in the eys of their community they are of no greater worth than a cockroach slated for extermination, don’t feel very good. This is why when I read stories of frum suicides, overdoses, and frum teen criminals, I get furious at their communities THAT ALLOWED AND ACTIVELY ENCOURAGED SUCH A TRAGEDY TO HAPPEN.
The community is ‘oiver’ on murder, not the suicide victim being ‘oiver’ on suicide. For every one finger pointing at the victim, four fingers point back at the community.
artchill: Then how do you explain away what the poskim say regarding someone who commits suicide?
Wolf, precisely because of your questions, I named it interesting. However, it isn’t exactly so. Pain and bereavement are two different things. When parents lose a child, they comfort themselves with the education they gave him/her. The deprive themselves with the care they gave him, and they hear all the Chizuk and good deeds about their child. On the other hand, a person who committed suicide usually doesn’t have this. In addition to their pain, they are usually ashamed and cannot face visitors. They cannot comfort themselves with the notion that they cared enough about the individual and just want to turn the page. Eliminating the Shiva practice makes it easier for them to disguise their suffering and pain.
Note: Even with the pain of losing a loved one (especially a child), there is still the “Gezeira Al Halev SheTishtakech Min HaBeis” – the pain lessens over time, whereas the consciousness of having a suicide individual in the family stays forever.
Wolf-
I think that this is the answer. I do not know how contemporary poskim rule on the subject, but if you’ll look in Mesechta Smachos (a.k.a. Masechta Avel Rabasi, one of the ‘masechtos k’tanos’) it seems clear that one who commits suicide due to emotional stress is not in the category of suicides you mentioned who has the halacha of a mumar. Also, Tosafos in Avoda Zara (18a) says that it is mutar to kill oneself if he is afraid that otherwise someone will torture him to do something wrong and he knows he will not have the strength to hold out. And the gemara over there is clear that in extreme pain that will eventually result in death it may not be so bad if one commits suicide either. It seems apparent that the category of suicides you refer to includes only a specific type, namely those who are emotionally stable yet do not believe their life has a purpose. Not every murderer is making such a ‘lofty’ claim when he kills someone, because he may not be thinking that much. But someone of sound mind who makes the decision to kill himself must have thought long and hard and come to the conclusion that his life has no purpose, and that is why it is such a terrible act. It is a denial of everything the Torah stands for.
Wolf the answer is becuz the Torah sez so. Why are you questioning the Torah? Do you think you no better than the aibeshter about which is worse. He said suicide is worse — thats it the end. Asking these types of questions makes it look like you no better. and you dont.
Most suicides nowadays are attributed to emotional illness – that a person would have to be out of his mind with grief, to take such a drastic step. There are cases where suicide was not looked upon as an aveira. The story of the woman who was kidnaped onto a ship and asked a shailah (I guess a rov was also captured there), that if she were to jump overboard (rather than be defiled), would she lose her share of Olam Haba, and the rov said no, and she jumped into the ocean.
There is nothing wrong with asking questions and trying to understand something. Asking questions does NOT show that the questioner thinks he knows better. They are just trying to understand the Torah better. Judaism isn’t afraid of questions.
And the fact that people are citing answers then that must mean that many of the Rabannim back then also questioned it. Does that make THEM think they know better?
If you can get hold of the tapes/CDs. Rabbi Resiman covered the topic rather thoroughly when covering the perek where shaul dies, davids reaction to the news and his subsequent actions.
He covers the idea of how shaul killed himself (or allowed someone to kill him) and why. Did david sit shiva and why.
He discusses suicide, and sitting shiva for someone who does.
Interesting. I’m not sure that suicide is worse then murder; a convicted murderer is also not buried among other jews (“Kvorim Ben Reshoim Gemurim”). However, today we don’t have a Beis Din and the like, while suicide is unfortunately still relevant.
The Medrash Rabbah has a special drasha to forbid suicide; that would imply that it is in a category unto itself. We find that suicide is permissible in times to avoid something which is Yehareg V’Al Yaavor (hence a woman committing suicide to avoid being defiled) and the mass suicides during the crusades to avoid forced conversion. Again, if the Mitzvah is important enough to allow yourself to be killed, one may kill oneself to avoid it.
I presume that that means that suicide is not in the catergory sfichas daamim, because if it were, well, isn’t that yeherag v’al yaavor as well? But I vaguely recall priorities in Yeharag V’Al Yaavor…anyone else?
Anyway, what are the sources for suicide being worse then murder? Again, it seems clear that one must kill oneself before killing someone else (conversely, one must save oneself before saving another).
I have wondered why the Poskim have a universal ban on Euthanasia; if suicide is permissible in the face of torture and certain death (an opinion held by many Poskim) – isn’t that an apt description of Terminal brain cancer or the like? True, cures are often possible, but after all hope is exhausted – ? Morphine, anyone?
Moq –
“Again, it seems clear that one must kill oneself before killing someone else”
Don’t you mean allow oneself to be killed rather than killing someone else?
“I have wondered why the Poskim have a universal ban on Euthanasia; if suicide is permissible in the face of torture and certain death (an opinion held by many Poskim)”
Perhaps the poskim in question do not hold permissible suicide when facing certain death.
Thanks for the thought out response (absolutely no sarcasm intended. I just like being able to say something, and getting a response to what I actually said! Strangest thing!)
1- I didn’t know that a murder is reburied. But I looked into it, and that which you say (was this your source?) is a Gemara in Sanhedrin, 47b, explaining that the Kapara of the Daled Misos Beis Din is only after his execution and the rotting of the of his corpse, hence, after the Ikul HaBasar, his body is returned to Kivrey Avosav, because Kapara is complete.
A suicide, I would propose, doesn’t have the intrinsic Kapara of his actual death being a Kapara, as it was an Averah unto itself, nor the rotting of his corpse, as by the Daled Misos it would seem to be an extension of his execution. By a suicide, that too would not be a Kapara. Hence, the suicide’s corpse would remain eternally chutz Lamachaneh.
But not because his chet is intrinsically worse, but rather because the same Kapara is not available to him. The litmus test for this would be the following – say someone is dies a natural death, and only then we find two witnesses who reliably accuse him of murder, would we move his body? That’s a question unto itself; I know of no source for postmortem punishment from this world, one could presume that after death all punishment is given to the Beis Din Shel Maalah and we’d have to ask ourselves if being buried out of the regular graveyard is a punishment, or merely due to to the honor of the others buried there? I presume it’s the latter, as you pointed out.
2- But I assume that someone whom we know reliably (I wonder what level would be required) committed murder would not be buried in Jewish cemetery, much like anyone else who was not Shomer the Taryag Mitzvos. Source?
3- As far as losing his chelek of Olam HaBah, we do not find a suicide listed in the Mishnah in the beginning of Perek Chelek where those who have no chelek in Olam HaBah are listed. I later found that the Yad HaMelech on Rambam (when the Rambam speaks of a suicide, and the fact he receives no honor in burial) actually says that he heard the same thing! And he looked everywhere, and couldn’t find a source. He quotes the Maharit who assumed that this was true, but he rejects it as being sourceless! He even brings a proof to the opposite effect, that Achitofel (who killed himself) is listed as having no chelek l’olam habah. And the gemara explains that this was because he was Malbin Pney Chavero b’Rabim. Asks the Yad HaMelech, why doesn’t the egmara says that the reason was because he committed suicide? Hence, it must be that after the kapara for such a horrible chet in gehenom, he could have indeed have had a chelek l’olam habah!
As far as Josephus, as a historian he is relied upon (we find Tosfos and the Rishonim do quote him). He had a very chashuv brother (points for guessing who). Interesting. That requires thought.
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