Should we try to encourage Mashichists and Elokists to return to the fold?
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Tagged: Who can shtech better?
- This topic has 361 replies, 27 voices, and was last updated 9 months, 4 weeks ago by TS Baum.
May 27, 2022 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #2091756
Here you go again, syag. Nobody needs to hear “you don’t make sense” or, “I noticed serious flaws in your post.” Well, I actually didn’t notice any, maybe your post would have some tochen if you wrote anything which proves your statement.
And besides, focus on the actual conversation, not just the way people say things and create contradictions from something that may have been said in the wrong language.May 27, 2022 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #2091762
As I said before –
“But I also hear loud and clear that you’ve accepted this reality as yours and anything anyone says to refute it will get you to start up again with your sinas chinam diversion.”
Additionally, why do you get to decide where I focus. If someone is obnoxious, deceitful, manipulative, condescending, disrespectful or kafui tov I have every right to comment. To me, how people actually treat each other is MUCH more important than your not quite substantiated claims about what real chabad is about.May 27, 2022 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #2091784
I don’t decide–you do. But all I’ve seen you contributed (for the most part) is telling everybody that they don’t make sense and what they say isn’t true because it just isn’t.May 27, 2022 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #2091790
By no means everyone. Just those to whom it appliesMay 28, 2022 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #2091806tunaisafishParticipant
Why do you give any credibility to TS BAUM as the defender of lubavitch. he sounds like a nice bochur but hes not representing anyone except himself. if you wana know what chabad is about learn Eyin Beis, if you wana know about chai vkaim and all those inyanim learn the sicha of vyaakov lo meis ( i think nun beis). if you wana just shtech and shtech then im sorry for interupting and you may continue after jabbing this comment a couple times. 🙂May 28, 2022 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #2091882GefilteFishParticipant
I wasn’t “ranting” about chabad.
I was ruefully relating the reality as I have experienced it here in Israel and as I have clarified it.
many of the comments on this thread have basically shared the idea that “those meshichisters are minor groups who don’t actually follow the Rebbe’s teachings; and the elohists are an even smaller group that nobody takes seriously.”
Some people even raised the question about why do we care about these people.
I was trying to explain why we care.
These are not “minor” groups of Chabad; these are the ones who represent Chabad in Israel (and other places).
They are the ones running the Chabad houses, manning the Tefillin booths, and running the schools and other educational institutions here.
When you ask people who who Chabad are- whether religious people, secular people, politicians or anybody else- every assumes that at least the meshichisters are representative.
And since the “normal” chabad don’t push back, this narrative is validated.
You claim that the elohists are this minor group of meshuganas, and that “real chabad” don’t need to waste their time denying them.
But in Israel, those elohists are treated by meshichisters on equal par.
As I’ve mentioned, they are invited to speak and “mashpiah” at most chabad houses here.
How do you know that the person putting tefillin on people at the Kosel (airport etc.) is “only” meshichist and not an elohist?
As has been often discussed in various forums, some of the more extremists among the “not-normal” chabad hold that they can lie about their beliefs since it’s “mutar leshanos mpnei hashalom” and in order to more effectively mekarev people.
So now, when members of the local “meshichist” chabad shul are davening at a different minyan with me; and I know that every time the chabad shul has invited the tzfas “mashpiah” to speak that those members have attended; can I join them to make up the minyan?
I don’t know that they believe the rebbe is HKBH r”l. but they might believe it.
It’s very nice to just sit back and say “they’re not real chabad, they don’t represent the philosophy.”
But it’s very hard to ignore them, especially when they are proselytizing to the frum community.
But if we protest that they are “not really chabad” they simply laugh, since there is no “Normal chabad” counter-voice. They have taken the legitimacy of Chabad for their agenda.
And when we try and push back against them, by protesting their proselytizing and encouraging people not to take part in their services, we’re just accused of sinas chinam and “fighting among the religious Jews.” (yes, the regular media makes no distinction between the chareidi population and the elohists and messianics. This proves our point even more…)
@syag I appreciate your support and understanding.
This is not a rant against Chabad.
It is a cry of sorrow at how so many “normal” chabad people don’t care that “Chabad” is now synonymous with the crazies, and that generations of kids are being educated with this very mistaken belief, and thousands of people are being “mekareved” to mistaken beliefs.May 28, 2022 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2091883GefilteFishParticipant
@TsBaum -You suggested that the solution to the problem of the meshichists and elohists is simply to daven to HKBH for Moshiach.
It sounds like you’re saying that there is no need for any specific hishtadlus, other than davening.
By the same token, why invest so much time and effort into kiruv?
Why don’t just say that the solution to assimilation is simply to daven for Moshiach?
Obviously, Chabad realizes that davening is not enough. There’s a need to engage the non-religious, put on tefillin and invite them for shabbos etc.
We need to do hishtadlus.
So too, when dealing with the “crazies”” of Chabad, there’s a need to do hishtadlus- to exert effort at separating them from Chabad and minimizing their impact.
Let me ask you:
If you saw that a chabad house was inviting an elohist to a farbrengen, would you protest that farbrengen? if you saw a post for it, would you take it down?
I think this should be agreed upon by everyone, correct? We all agree that Elohists are kefira, and that no chabad house should be supporting or hosting them?
So even if you won’t make a public protest, but at least you should try and minimize their influence.May 28, 2022 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2091892
You truly have a lot in common with commonsaychel.
For your information, when I said “everybody” I don’t literally mean EVERY SINGLE SINGLE PERSON. I mean in general. You are a pretty sharp thinker, but sometimes maybe you think too precisely.May 29, 2022 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2092253
I said not everybody, only those to whom it applies
Not every single single person. Not even most people. And if you think I was taking you literally, then you must have missed the part where I said “just those to whom it applies”.May 29, 2022 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #2092273
You corrected me by pointing out that I said “everybody”. But I think you should understand that I didn’t mean everybody.May 29, 2022 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #2092291
No, I was clarifying. You threw in everybody to make it seem that I was making random comments. My response was to tell you that it wasn’t random comments, it was directed b’kavana where it applied.May 29, 2022 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #2092330
Okay, I guess that was a misunderstanding.
I think this whole forum is a bunch of misunderstandings.
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