September 17, 2008 2:35 am at 2:35 am #588254
Question, should yeshiva boys/bocrim dress in “style”? (farshtaitzich i have my own opinion on the matter however i would like to first hear some feedback from the olam)September 17, 2008 4:43 am at 4:43 am #622189
veimloachshuv: First of all obviously you mean if they want to.
I wouldn’t think that the Chiyuv of a talmid chochom to be dressed
clean and respectable (yeshiva boy = potential talmid chochom)
to include being up&up w/ the style!
To answer ur question first of all between me & you how many
yeshiva boys are dressed “mamish” in the height of fashion really!!
I dont mean wearing calvin klein ties & flats w/ stitching
& D&G glasses while wearing dress pants that are 100% wool
(btw seperates in style are mostly Poly Blends)
but most yeshiva guys who think their in style
are just barely keeping up w/ the times!
& I don’t think that’s included in Chukas Hagoy!
If we were to stay w/ the old we’d be wearing sandals & robes
no Borsalino’s 4 sure. do you get my point? Even the Rabonnim’s
hats have changed over times as well as other garments.
now that i made that point.
i think in my humble opinion
that boys who are serious of becoming the next generations
Roshei Yeshiva & Gedolim (the real ones) should not be so into their
clothing & to focus their energies on learning torah & Halacha
thoroughly & working on themselves until their middos are exemplary,
not being busy with, are we doing two pleats or flat front now?
However the rest of the Hamonei Am if they want they could
dress in style (note what i pointed out on top)
we dont have to look like aleins
but i dont think that “shpitz style” should be a
thing for any ben torah or bas yisroel,
Especially if current styles clash with Tznius.September 17, 2008 4:45 am at 4:45 am #622190
What kind of question is this? To each their ownSeptember 17, 2008 4:48 am at 4:48 am #622191
They should dress respectfully, but I think it gets taken to the point of meshugas. A white shirt does not a talmid chachom make. Nor does a borsalino.
Respectful is the key. The color of the shirt, the hat (style or even existence) is probably irrelevant to HKBH. He cares about the learning.September 17, 2008 4:58 am at 4:58 am #622192
What exactly does “in style” mean for yeshivah bochurim?
It is a basic white shirt and black pants…
Veimloachshuv, please explain exactly what you are referring to.September 17, 2008 5:41 am at 5:41 am #622193
When it comes to the yeshiva buchorim’s style, they don’t necessarily have to wear the perry ellis suits, or barcelino hats, (I am most likely behind the times, and those brands are probably “obsolete” nowadays) but they should dress nicely (not pricy), because appearances & first impressions mean a lot for shidduchim, how they represent their schools, and how they appear to the non jewish onlookers. Dressing shlumpy, and raggedy, gives off a bad impression in different ways I had previously mentioned (& more). Looking put together, pressed, and fresh gives off a positive aura all around you.
-This is obviously just my personal opinion, not facts whatsoever. So please don’t take it to heart or be offended by it.September 17, 2008 11:02 am at 11:02 am #622194
define in “style”
I think that clothing is something that is way overrated in terms of ones judaism. however, i can understand why some people would find it important.
in order to create a kiddush hashem, i think that yeshiva bochurim should always look neat and presentable, regardless of the type of clothing (you can look neat and clean in jeans also)September 17, 2008 11:05 am at 11:05 am #622195
Tell It StraightMember
Do you have like an alert go off in your house when someone posts a new topic?!September 17, 2008 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #622196
Hmm…I think people should dress as they see fit within halacha. I also would advise comfort over style because if you are uncomfortable and learning in yeshiva, you probably wont be able to learn too well.
I’m not quite sure why yeshivish men only wear white shirts and black pants. Is there a halacha against color (besides for red)? [this is a serious question, not derisive!]September 17, 2008 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #622197
Let’s look at history shall we? Has anyone paid attention to the famous picture of the Alter of Slabodka, the one in which we wears a silk top hat and holds a silver tipped walking stick. His rainment in that picture was the epitome of upper bourgois dress in his times. He dressed like a banker or statesmen. The Alter wanted his students to adopt the trappings of the polite society of his day (malbusho shel adam kvodo hi). He expected his boys to eat with proper ettiquete (i.e. with a napkin in one’s lap, knowing which utensil to use and when, to fold the napkin when leaving the table etc) and to dress accordingly. That explains why he abandoned the traditional broad brimmed hat of Polish rabbis in favor of the “hoch tzilinder,” and why his students were seen in black and grey stripped pants, black jackets and bowler hats; the way a proper young man dressed in those days. As clothing styles changed, yeshiva bochurim followed suit. Look at the pictures of the students at the Mir in the 1930’s. They were all stylishly dressed (and I point out the hats mostly not black). It wasn’t until the 1960’s, when JFK killed the hat industry by not wearing one to his innauguration, that there arose a “yeshivish” style of dress, which was basically a rarification of the style of dress in the last non-Jewish generation to regularly wear hats. In short yeshiva bochurim dressed like IBM salesmen (IBM having had the most conservative dress code in the corporate world). But while IBM moved on in their sartorial development, the yeshiva bochurim stayed put, giving tangential expression to the newly popular separatist ultra-Orthodoxy that began post WWII. Not only were theu different than the rest of the world, they now dressed differently also. Now what was your question?September 17, 2008 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #622198
No offense but I doubt any of them will ever look GQ and there’s no need for them to anyways.
Fashionably dressed, yes they should be. Their clothes and shoes should be of this decade at least – although retro’s good and fashion repeats itself with a modern twist…
I think Yeshiva guys should always look clean and presentable since they are obvious representatives of Jewish people in the streets.September 17, 2008 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #622199
A Chashuva Rebbe at a prestigious Yeshiva once told me that the difference between my white shirt and many of the white shirts around the Bais Medrash, was that the emblem on my shirt absorbed the grease.
Btw on a serious note; two Bachurim from a Brooklyn Yeshiva have put together a Suit Gmach (by lunch and supper only) to help those who cannot afford to buy expensive nice clothing. Most of the clothes are designer names, new or gently used. For more info please call (917) 757-0654.September 17, 2008 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #622200
Cantoreq makes a valid point. A yeshivah bochur should dress respectfully based on what the current population considers neat and professional. In this decade, its nicely pressed shirt and pants. 30 years ago it was shirts with giant collars and grey suits. There is no model or guidance in the torah for the color, fabric type , or layout for jewish clothing. Moshe rabeinu probably wore a long colorful robe as was common in his desert living times.September 17, 2008 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #622201
cantoesq, you are spot on about slobodka, but novordhok was different. nowadays though, all the novordhok yeshivas dont dress like paupers, as it was done so that they would get mocked. i have looked in may books that show the yeshivas of yesteryear, and all the bochurim are dressed nicely, even though most of them were hungry.September 17, 2008 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #622202
I get what the original poster’s saying. It’s a problem. It starts with parents paying for taking shirts to the cleaners once the boys hit ninth grade. B”H my boys don’t go for that.
The gemach Challahback mentioned reminded me of the old story of the suit that was shared among the bachurim of a European yeshiva for shidduchim purposes, and how one girl sewed the button back on that fell off when the last bachur came. (Anyone knows the story, please feel free to share and tell it better.) The times they have a changed.September 17, 2008 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #622203
Mariner, you’r right, I didn’t address the Novarodek practice (which was renmarkably similar to the Kotzker approach to clothing, vestigially observed by the Karlin-Stolin chassidim)since it’s no longer in practice in contemporary yeshivot. Theses days, there are two extremes in yeshivish dress; boys who look like they just came out a dry cleaner, and boys who look like unmade beds.September 17, 2008 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #622204
if moshe rabeinu dressed like the goyim of his time, hten why were the jews praised for keeping their mode of dress?September 17, 2008 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #622205
I think he was asking if a boy should be all into his clothes and styles to which the answer is definitely not because it takes time away from one’s earning and you become a bal gaiva. But on the other hand you should always have a nicely ironed shirt and look decent because an old shitta of mine is that it doesn’t take a shirt- out greasy haired person to become a Gadol!September 17, 2008 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #622206
intellegent, Beautiful point!
The Yidden were highly praised for having maintained their Jewish dress in Mitzrayim. At Krias Yam Suf we sang how the Egyptians boasted and attempted to overcome Klal Yisroel “Omar oyev erdof, asig, achalaik sholol” (I will chase them, I will overcome them, and I will give them our names, our language and our dress.)
Jews have always had a Jewish way of dress, different than the pruste goy.September 17, 2008 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #622207
Joseph as far as I recall, lo shinu et malbusham referred to tzitzit and shatnez; nothing else.September 17, 2008 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #622208
fashion? no! but definitely neat, clean, and collected.September 17, 2008 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #622209
Should yeshiva guys dress “in style”? I’m not actually sure what is meant by this question.
If you’re asking if they should look neat and presentable I’d say the answer is yes. If they’re trying to present themselves as the Torah elite, they should dress in the manner of the elite–dress shirts (which may be colored, imho) and dress pants.
That said, I have no problem with learning men who dress casually, as long as their mannerisms don’t say “slacker” to all who see them. Ultimately, it’s the finery of their behavior that really matters, and all questions about dress are irrelevant.September 17, 2008 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #622210
A buchur should dress like he knows that he is learning Hashem’s Torah- in a respectible way. However, there are many girls(like myself) who are turned off on a date when they see a buchur wearing the latest, Buchrim who think they are in. The only thing they should be in, is Yeshiva!September 17, 2008 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #622211
cantoresq, i was about to question shelo shinu… on another facet, and that is if moshe rabbeinu led out klal yisroel because we didnt change our names, why is he called by his egyptian name? it clearly means alot more then we had our own dress and clothing. besides, there are many who actually believe that es malbusham is not in the original text of the rashi! (yes, some were maskilim, but not all.)
as for kotzker, i never knew they also dressed like paupers to be belittled. i thought chassidus was about being happy?
postsemgirl: there is nothing wrong essentially with dressing in style, expensive clothing does not mean in style. it means your spending money. there are many ways to dress stylish while spending minimal bank for your clothing. wearing white tube socks with black dress pant s and shoes, which many boys in yeshivos do, is not befitting a ben torah. wearing pants rubbed at teh seat of the pants till they are almost see through, or wrinkled like it came out of the washing machine is also not befitting a ben torah. that you understand, which is good, but realize, in essence a ben torah is a melech, and should dress more then just having dress socks and pressed pants. he hsould dress dignified, and also walk dignified. slouched shoulders should never bee seen in the streets. hats crooked (if worn) should have their brims down, and they should be their original color (not sun bleached greenish-gray), and be clean, not have dust since last pesach on them.September 17, 2008 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #622212
mariner- why do you have to go from one extreem to the next? Did I say they have to have dusty and sun bleached hats? All I said is he has to reflect the fact that he is a Ben Torah and not reflect the newest style.September 17, 2008 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #622213
Doesn’t H-m watch over the Torah (Ba’al Pe’eh as well) that we should be learning the right stuff? Weren’t there Gedolim in previous generations who spent much time with a lot of mesiras nefesh and Siyata D’Shmaya to preserve texts and make copies that are 100% accurate? I may be wrong but please clarify as you seem to be very knowledgeable (I don’t mean to be sarcastic, I’m seriously asking)September 17, 2008 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #622214
Their clothing should fit properly, should be neat and clean, and not look like it came out of the Salvation Army Thrift Store. Their personal grooming/hygiene should be impeccable (and often the opposite is the case) That being said, there is no reason why they cannot look “shtotty” and be Yeshivah bochurim, but they should not be so consumed with their appearance that they are checking out their reflections in the mirror every few minutes. Girls are not the only one who should dress attractively. (If you are one of those who believe girls should NOT dress attractively, then please ignore the entire previous paragraph).September 17, 2008 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #622215
Boys and girls should dress nicely and fashionably (but not put a major hole in their parent’s pocket book with these designer brands, gevalt!!)September 17, 2008 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #622216
Intellegent and Joseph:
Are you saying that yeshiva bachurim of the past which included future Roshei Yeshiva (i.e., Rav Hutner, Rav Ruderman, Rav Shneiur Kotler,etc); Chief Rabbis and Rabbonim are to be criticized for not knowing this chazal? Candid photos show them in very stylish dress.
The yeshivashe styles included:
SHABBOS- SUITS: Iridescent; Plaid; Sharkskin; Neru; Bell Bottoms; Wide Lapels worn with wide ties; Narrow Lapels worn with narrow ties; Herring Bone; Tapered; Seersucker; Polyester. Also, Sports Jackets and slacks.
SHIRTS: Turtleneck, Colored and Patterned shirts; even on Shabbos.
HATS: Charcoal; Grey; Brown; actually any color; small brims; Velour.
It was also very rare to see bochrim in litveshe yeshivos sporting peyos behind their ears or with beard growth.September 17, 2008 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #622217
1) The extra cost of high fashion is a shud oif yiddeshe gelt (of course, most of the designers are Jews…)
2) The need to constantly buy new things to keep up is also a shud oif yiddishe gelt
3) Yeshiva bochurim don’t belong in the mall perusing racks of clothing. I’m sure there is an aspect of simlas eisha in this practice (I mean the obsession, not the articles)
4) Bochurim shouldn’t be so araingetun in foolish materialistic things (of course that opens a whole new discussion). Dressing should not be a distraction.
And I haven’t even mentioned all of the obvious reasons (which may be debatable). Personally, I think this obsession is in line with what Rashi says about men wearing perfume.
I do know bochurim who are involved in this. I can’t even speak to them without being revolted by their self flattering attitudes. Yuck. But just because they SHOULDN’T be involved in fashion world, does not mean that they WON’T be. Until we fix the problems that make this kind of thing possible amongst the frum, we will not be able to change this manifestation.September 17, 2008 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #622218
intellegent: there are many cases where we have mistakes in loshon hagemora. besides the fact that all through europe our sforim were edited by christians for anti christian phrases, book making was a very hard and tedious process. mistakes happened. not to mention, there were many times where publishers would change texts for their own gains.September 17, 2008 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #622219
I think bochurim should wear sak ve’efer and girls should wear burqas starting from the age of three.September 18, 2008 1:06 am at 1:06 am #622220
Since the yeshiva bochrim are wearing white shirts and dark pants i think that the things that could be different (glasses, ties, shoes…just to name a few) should be ..well, not necassarily “in style” but nice. if a girl would wear certain clothes, it would show her personality. a boy can’t show his personality through the white shirts and dark pants so he should get nice glasses, or ties to show his personality! i think that that is very important.
also, just because something is instyle doesn’t mean that it had to be more expensive, or he had to be haning out in a mall to get it. he could have gotten it from a frum store and even if it wasn’t in style he might have to go the mall to get it so there is no difference!September 18, 2008 4:10 am at 4:10 am #622221
Thank you all for your feedback – however the following were not fully addressed,
1)is it ok to spend $20.00-$50.00 more for a shirt that has a horse or a alligator on it.
2)What about those who are the first to copy the new style before its even known that its in style (what did you think of the first five chevra wearing “pink” ties)
3)During sports- (i.e. in camp) must evryone wear “Nike” or can the ball get in the basket from a different brand, and if you’ll say if its not “Nike” gait es nished what do you think about wearing “Jordan” sneakers (made by Nike), I think everyone would agree to where a T-SHIRT with a players name in back is assur [a camp learning director once asked a camper “do you think Michel Jordan would wear something that says “Chaim Yankel freidman” on it?]September 18, 2008 5:13 am at 5:13 am #622222
veimloachshuv: In life, there are two types of people
now i think there’s a 3rd type.
Not bold enough to be an Originator,
& too timid to be an Imitator.
I see you’re into all these trends,
So I say buy a shirt w/ an alligator, put on some nikes, wear a pink tie
& come to shul you’ll cover all the basic groups.
i get your point, lol! should’ve posted that up front.September 18, 2008 10:31 am at 10:31 am #622223
Who says our clothes need to show our personality? Clothing is not a means of expressing ourselves in my opinion. There are better ways of doing that.September 18, 2008 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #622224
1) I can’t be masig spending much more than 20 dollars on any shirt.
2) Where are they copying it from? Is it that they see the ties in the store? Did they see bachurim from an even more up to the minute yeshiva wearing them? Someone has to be first and it doesn’t necessarily mean anything. It could be that they saw the tie and liked it. Or a relative bought it for them….
3)How expensive are the sneakers? Maybe they were dirt cheap. If not, a lot depends on whether the boy’s feet stopped growing. I guess I would say the same thing I’d say to my daughter: I’m willing to spend up to $ XX and you can pay the difference. If the difference were exhorbitant, I’d try to get to the root of it all, and build up my son’s self-image that he wouldn’t feel the need to blow significant amounts of bar mitzvah money on such externals.September 18, 2008 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #622225
Nike is out-
Pink Ties are out-
Dude, you are five years behind the times!September 18, 2008 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #622226
1) if one can afford it, who are you to say not to. not to mention, those shirts with alligators do last longer, so technically in the long run, that shirt may have been the more expensive choice at the time, but in the long run, it will be cheaper.
2)the “chevra” who wore pink ties first, well maybe they went to the store before the later “chevra” and saw that was what was being sold! some people have it in them to wear something before it is hugely popular. sometimes these people look ridiculous because the trend doesnt catch on (priest collars on suits is one that comes to mind, another 5 button single breasted suits), and they get burned on their purchase. their is nothing inherently wrong, as long as one can afford it.
as for their being a halachic problem with wearing a ball players name on a tee shirt, sorry but that just isnt not true. no one agrees about that! yes, posters in a childs room should be frowned upon, but assur! stop throwing around the word assur, or assur becomes the boy who cried wolf, and things truly assur lose their value.
as for wearing nikes and other name brands, this actually is very imporatnt. wearing cheap footwear, especially when running around, can be very harmful to your feet, ankles, calve muscles, up to your back and spine. nikes, reeboks, nu-balance, these companies all invest alot of money into technology that places the stress on the shoe in special ways as to not effect the body. this is especially important as jews of european decent tend to be more flat and wide footed then the rest of the populace. it isnt the name of the sneaker, but the technology inside it. go speak to any podiatrist, and ask them how important a good pair of sneakers are to children and teens, you will be surprised!September 18, 2008 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #622227
Re Challahback and feeling more respectable with high end clothes: from where do our gedolim and many people who are really doing things with their lives in $20 or less shirts find their self-respect? There must be more to self image than clothes…September 18, 2008 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #622228
Callahback wrote that pink ties are out. Is that case if I wear one of my pink ties with one of my pink shirts?September 19, 2008 3:05 am at 3:05 am #622229
intelligent-they may not show ur personality but its a reflect of your personality. if you see someone dressed very well, you will look toward them w/ more respect rather than someone who is dressed very ‘shlumpy’ who MOST PEOPLE (that doesn’t mean everyone) will look more down upon.
challahback- i agree w/ you! make black and white look better! ur clothes make people respect u !!
oh by the way…anyone want to hear a joke? why are polo shirts so expensive? because the man on the horse is wearing lacoste! sorry i just thought it went well with the topic/conversation!!September 19, 2008 3:58 am at 3:58 am #622230
challahback–What time of crowd gives you more “respect” for wearing a horse or aligator on your shirt-you say “NIKE is out (of style)” please tell us what goes on your feet (during sports).
Mariner-do you really believe in buying a $85.00 dress shirt as a long term money saving investment because it lasts longer?thats like buying a Lexus instead of a Chevy because it will last longer and save money.
Wearing a players name- is lechore “assur” because of “lo se’choneim”
I do concede however that one should wear brand name sneakers for reasons rhat you stated, plus more.September 19, 2008 5:04 am at 5:04 am #622231
veimloachshuv: L’aniyus daati, the Issur of Loy Se’choneim Would only
be No’geah if one wears the shirt to be cool (like Michael).
However if he wears it only cuz, “Es Shpielt Zich Besser!”
or cuz it “Intimidates the Oilem”
Farvos Nisht? = Why not?September 19, 2008 5:08 am at 5:08 am #622232
Truthfully, “brand names” mean nothing to me. I have a pair of nikes, only because I got a great deal on them (under $30 at famous footwear), they are very light weight which is essential for running, and they fit like a charm, (i have teeny feet, it’s so hard to find shoes that actually fit!)
I have some clothing NOT name brand that are in excellent condition, and they are a decade old, and I still wear them today.
You don’t have to go shopping every season, to look “good” and “put together.” (it has not been a decade since I shopped for clothing by the way)
If you really want to dress with what’s “in style,” and name brands, you can always go to, burlington, marshalls, tj maxx, or ross, and pay so much less then actual retail price. There are ways to wear brand name clothing, without spending a fortune. You just have to be thrifty, and find good deals. They are out there.September 19, 2008 5:31 am at 5:31 am #622233
when somone comes for a date to my house it definetely makes an impression if the bochur is well put together and is neat in appearance. However if he wears a pink tie or Burburry socks or an Armani suit is totally irrelevant for a prospective shiduch.September 19, 2008 6:20 am at 6:20 am #622234
1) if someone doesn’t mind paying the extra $ for the alligator, horse or monkey (representing co’s of lacoste, polo & kipling) then thats their free will.
2)I dont think theres a/t wrong w/ being ‘in style’ it just shouldnt dominate their lives , anything taken to an extreme is no good. & for guys the only “accesories” they have are ties, glasses, watches & cufflings is there a/t else ?
3) I dont wear nikes, I wear Pumas 🙂
Also just curious given the following choice a $40 ralph lauren polo shirt w/o the logo in front vs. a $45 same exact polo shirt w/o the logo (but its the real thing the label’s inside & its selling in a POLO store ) How many of us would pay the extra $5 for the “horse” ???September 19, 2008 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #622235
I would pay the $45 and get the one without the horse. In fact, I’d probably even pay an extra $10 to avoid being a walking billboard.
Pink ties are out, but I hear that pink eye is in. That should go well with your pink shirt.September 19, 2008 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #622236
The obove coment from “veimloachshuv” was NOT posted by me, nor does it reflect my veiwpoint,a relitive of mine used the computer without me loging out first–lehoseir michshol.September 19, 2008 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #622237
veimloachshuv, no one was choished you!
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