February 24, 2016 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #617290yehoshua613Member
I personally find it to be a lack of Hakoras Hatov in the heigest degree when klall Yisroel -and that includes the Yeshivishe velt in Israel and Golus- refrain in saying on Shabbos the Prayer for Tzahal.
After all, in Tzahal are not just non-religious soldiers, but religious as well with all kinds of Hashkafos from the Hassidic to the Hesder boys. Is this not a lack of Hakaras Hatov to our soldiers who give their life on the line every day to protect every Yid no matter where or who he is from Meah Shearim to Tel Aviv? Isn’t this a Hillul Hashem on the part of the Yeshivish community who 100 years ago said a prayer every Shabbos to every anti-semitic Tzar and tyrant and now when we have a country of our own we cannot ‘fargin’ a prayer that calls for Hashem to protect our Jewish soldiers? I ask you, isn’t it about time we wake and realize we are only shooting ourselves in the foot, literally, by not beseeching Hashem to protect us? Anyone?February 24, 2016 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1139714
YawnFebruary 24, 2016 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1139715
My family built klal Yisroel In America
I personally find it to be a lack of Hakoras Hatov in the heigest degree when klall Yisroel refrain in saying on Shabbos the Prayer for my familyFebruary 24, 2016 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1139716
[sic]heigestFebruary 24, 2016 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1139717gavra_at_workParticipant
I personally find it to be
You are entitled (if you live in America, where there is still Freedom of Speech). Others are entitled to disagree, as I’m sure HaKatan will post eventually.February 24, 2016 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1139718
I am not sure why you point out there are religious Jews as well as irreligious? You imply you would understand those of us (myself included) that don’t say such a prayer if it was just irreligious Jews in the army?February 24, 2016 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1139719popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I personally find it to be a lack of Hakoras Hatov in the heigest degree when klall Yisroel -and that includes the Yeshivishe velt in Israel and Golus- refrain in saying on Shabbos the Prayer for Tzahal.
And if you invented a new prayer for tzahal that needs to be said every day at chatzos, it would be a lack of hakaras hatov that I don’t say that either.
Let’s start with the lack of hakaras hatov to Hashem in the fact that most people don’t daven at all.February 24, 2016 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1139720
I personally find it to be a lack of Hakoras Hatov in the heigest degree when klall Yisroel -and that includes the Yeshivishe velt in Israel and Golus- refrain in saying on Shabbos the Prayer for Hatzolah.
After all, in Hatzolah are not just non-yeshivish or chassidish members, but yeshivish and chassidish as well with all kinds of Hashkafos. Is this not a lack of Hakaras Hatov to our Hatzolah members who give their time and effort every day even giving up their Shabbos and Yom Tov to protect every Yid no matter where or who he is from Meah Shearim to Tel Aviv to Monroe to Teaneck? Isn’t this a Hillul Hashem on the part of the Yeshivish community who 100 years ago said a prayer every Shabbos to every anti-semitic Tzar and tyrant and now when we have a volunteer ambulance service of our own we cannot ‘fargin’ a prayer that calls for Hashem to protect our Jewish EMT? I ask you, isn’t it about time we wake and realize we are only shooting ourselves in the foot, literally, by not beseeching Hashem to protect us? Anyone?February 24, 2016 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1139721american_yerushalmiParticipant
The OP assumes anyone can make up a tefila and every shul in every community should accept it. The Chazon Ish addressed this matter in a letter (appears in Kovetz Igros) when someone asked about designating a fast day for the Holocaust. He answered that small minded men think they are on a level of the earlier generations who were authorized to establish new takanos. If I’m remembering correctly, the Chazon Ish concluded by writing something like silence with regard to such ideas would be the prudent course of action.
The frum oilam in E.Y. differentiates between the soldiers on an individual level and the IDF on the institutional level. While most if not all people ask Hashem in their tefilos to protect all Yidden from harm, which of course, includes soldiers, police officers, etc. Asking Hashem to protect the IDF? That’s going a bit too far. And who knows if it’s such a good thing altogether? We all need Hashem’s chessed and protection, including the soldiers. This is what we ask for, and this is enough.
For the record, only about 1 in 6 soldiers are exposed to danger on an ongoing basis. The rest are “jobniks” who, while (mostly) performing some useful purpose, are not exactly “giving their life on the line every day to protect every Yid,” etc. OK, under current circumstances today maybe it’s a bit more than 1 in 6, but still far from everyone or even most of them. During wartime, C”V, everyone says Tehilim and learns for the hatzola of the Yishuv and Ha’am ha’yosheiv be’Tzion.
This is something for which everyone can and should daven: that Hashem should protect us from danger and from any further tzoros.February 24, 2016 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1139722rabbiofberlinParticipant
DaasYochid and others: “Jekum Purkon ” -mussaf- anyone? The “jehi rotzons’ on monday and Thursday anyone? The “Tosfos Yomtov” mi sheberach for non talkers in shul, anyone?? There are a multitude of prayers we do on weekdays and shabbos for various groups- and it would be very acceptable to include a “mi sheberach” for soldiers. It is only politics that prevent it and that is sad.February 24, 2016 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1139723
Popa – Davenning and Hakoras hatov are an interesting link. I am sure many would argue they feel grateful and that is enough. if you disagree, are you not guilty of your own first point?
DaasYochid – beautifulFebruary 24, 2016 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1139724
Or, better yet, modify DY’s comment from Hatzalah to the Bnei HaTorah who learn Torah yomom v’layla thus protecting the world more than everyone else combined.February 24, 2016 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1139725
What about a daily tefila for the moderators who selflessly give of their time to ensure all nonsensical posts get approved and displayed online for everyone to read and comment on.February 24, 2016 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1139726squeakParticipant
This space reserved for future words of wisdomFebruary 24, 2016 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1139727
Joseph – so frum – I was appreciating DY’s comment – the specific was irrelevant.February 24, 2016 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1139728BMHEEParticipant
The obvious difference between the OP’s point and everyone else’s is that IDF soldiers are in danger. They put themselves in danger to protect Jewish lives. It’s the least you can do to ask Hashem to protect them.
Bnei Torah are not in constant danger. Nor are Hatzalah members.February 24, 2016 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1139729akupermaParticipant
The original posting perhaps understands the matter better than he realizes. In Imperial Russia a prayer was publicly said for the Czar because even though we hated him but because we feared him – our actual prayers were answered and the ??? ended up in front of a firing squad along with the rest of his family.
So does the State of Israel and its army stand in a similar capacity to the Romanov family and their army (which they saw as a personal possession)? By starting a war against the Muslim world the medinah has put not only its soldier but all of klal Yisrael in mortal dangers. However the Zionists don’t rely on terror to win support (they prefer bribery, which works quite nicely – they’ve won massive support from hareidim by handing out lots of goodies), and unlike the Czar, the Zionists dont’ even believe in prayer or religion (so they don’t look at whether frum Yidden say a prayer, or not, as something significant). I’m sure that if the zionists became more czar-like in their approach to the Bnei Torah (e.g. rounding them up for military service), many Jews would pray for the future of the Medinah, and will probably be horrified when they the bloodbath when their prayers and answered as they inevitably will be.
But at present, most of us prefer to hope that the zionists will disappear or even better, do tseuvah and return to Torah. Even Neturei Karta doesn’t want to see the zionist leadership meeting the same fate as the Romanovs.February 24, 2016 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1139730popa_bar_abbaParticipant
– Davenning and Hakoras hatov are an interesting link. I am sure many would argue they feel grateful and that is enough. if you disagree, are you not guilty of your own first point?
I see. So in your world, prayers invented by the shilton hakofrim are binding, but by the anshei knesses hagedola are not.
nice.February 24, 2016 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1139731
The comparison to hatzalah isn’t exactly equitable because no one says a mi sheberach for hatzalah. If it had become accepted in many communities to say a mi sheberach for hatzalah and others communities did not, yet hatzalah was equally helping everyone, I could see how it might be perceived as a lack of hakaras hatov for those communities who don’t say it.
The fact that non religious Jews don’t value the protective value of Talmud Torah and don’t show hakaras hatov for it does not absolve us of our hakaras hatov towards them for protecting us as well.
The hakaras hatov we show to soldiers is not simply for protecting us. If that were the case, then Bnei HaTorah should be receiving at least equal hakaras hatov. The hakaras hatov for soldiers is also for the sacrifice and risk they put themselves in to protect us. They literally put their lives on the line to stand between us and our enemies. Bnei HaTorah do not risk nearly as much and that should be taken into account when we try and compare who “deserves” more hakaras hatov for protecting us.February 24, 2016 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1139732lesschumrasParticipant
Is there any point of another rehashing and bashing by both sides?February 24, 2016 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1139733
BMHEE: Construction workers, lumberjacks, roofers, firefighters and correction officers are examples of dangerous jobs too. If the criteria is dangerous jobs, make mishberachs for them too. If the criteria is saving the most lives, make mishberachs for the Bnei Yeshiva first.February 24, 2016 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1139734YW Moderator-42Moderator
I understand that many congregations say a prayer for Obama. Will they continue saying it for President Trump?February 24, 2016 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1139735
If they say it for Obama then for sure they’ll say it for Trump.February 24, 2016 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1139736screwdriverdelightParticipant
Yes. Even though trump is going to have it all figured out, will eliminate terrorism, and be friends with everyone, we must realize that strenght doesn’t come from man, and even he needs help from Above.February 24, 2016 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1139737
Lesschumras, good point.February 24, 2016 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1139738
If I had to summarize:
I think we all feel we owe hakaras hatov to the soldiers of Israel. The fact is, they do put their lives on the line to protect us from our enemies.
The question is, should we show it and how? Some posters seems to say that what the army does is so important to us, and they are risking so much to do it, that we should go as far to say a special tefilah for them that Hashem should protect them.
Others say, while we should definitely feel hakaras hatov for them in our hearts and minds, we do not have an obligation to change the tefilah for them just like we don’t for other organizations that we feel hakaras hatov for. Additionally, while we should feel hakaras hatov to the individual soldiers, showing it publicly to the Zionist entity as a whole (for those who believe that the Zionist entity is against halachah) would be inappropriate, especially when this Zionist entity is trying to force those who are learning Torah into the army. We should feel hakaras hatov to those individuals who protect us, but we should not necessarily show hakaras hatov to an organization that we disapprove of hashkafically and halachically.February 24, 2016 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1139739
I like that summary.February 24, 2016 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1139740
Yes, comparing Hatzolah or construction workers to standing on the Lebanon border with Hezbollah ym”s staring you down is completely valid…..
I would hope that those who do not say the mi sheberach for whatever reason at least appreciate somewhat what it is to be a combat soldier in the IDF. Sadly this does not seem to be the case.February 24, 2016 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1139741sonMember
Erased because I like simcha613’s summary better.February 24, 2016 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1139742
Ron, I would hope that those who do not say the mi sheberach for the Bnei Yeshiva for whatever reason at least appreciate somewhat what it is to like to choose to live in difficult finances while protecting Klal Yisroel from harm. Sadly this does not seem to be the case.February 24, 2016 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1139743BMHEEParticipant
Joseph, what’s the worst that can happen to a family in difficult finances? They may have to downsize, or make a smaller wedding.
Soldiers DIE.February 24, 2016 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1139744
Joseph, from what danger exactly should we be davening they be saved from? Certainly I appreciate their sacrifice …..of course I respect the sacrifice of bnei yeshiva who also enlist more, but nevertheless the contribution of those who do not enlist for whatever reason should be appreciated. We go back to the original question however…what exactly should a mi sheberach for avreichim contain? What physical danger do they face? With IDF soldiers I already told you..hence our confusion that there are those who would not daven for their physical safety…or at the very least if they believe that the tefilla is halachkaly unacceptable, to acknowledge the factsFebruary 25, 2016 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1139745
Firefighters DIE too.February 25, 2016 12:20 am at 12:20 am #1139746
At best, Joseph just wants to annoy people who just want to hear that the Yeshivish and Chareidi community feel hakaras hatov to the soldiers who defend Eretz Yisroel while putting their lives at risk.
At worst, Joseph is trying to rationalize his not feeling hakaras hatov to the soldiers who defend Eretz Yisroel by telling those people that they are just as bad as he is.February 25, 2016 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1139747
Or, he is pointing out that we don’t ordinarily create extra tefillos to express hakaras hatov to specific people or groups.
In truth, the b’nei yeshivah, Hatzolah members, and chayalei Tzahal all are covered in Yekum Purkon and Mi Shebeirach.February 25, 2016 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1139748
DY- I know that’s what he was doing at first. But then people were talking about appreciating soldiers and he just seemed to be egging them on.
Or, I can reinterpret his firefighter comment- “Of course I appreciate soldiers. Just like I appreciate firefighters for putting their lives on the line to save people. Just like you would be insulted if I implied you don’t feel hakaras hatov to firefighters, I am insulted that you imply that I don’t feel hakaras hatov to soldiers.”February 25, 2016 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1139749
No, he’s showing that we don’t create tefillos even for people who put their lives on the line. It’s not really a good raya, but that’s what he’s doing.
As rabbiofberlin pointed out, this is political.
Except that he’s got it backwards. The tefillah was created for political reasons, and we’re not buying into it.February 25, 2016 1:28 am at 1:28 am #1139750
I guess I read that differently.
And I don’t know the facts, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was started for political reasons… but now it’s something emotional for many people which is not a bad reason for saying a tefilah. It shouldn’t be used as a sword to attack those who don’t say it by implying that they don’t appreciate what soldiers are risking and fighting for… but it’s a powerful and emotional tefilah for those who connect to it.February 25, 2016 1:52 am at 1:52 am #1139751
Its especially emotional for those with loved ones in the line of fire.February 25, 2016 2:30 am at 2:30 am #1139752
Where’s the mi sheberach for firefighters to show our hakaros hatov to them for putting their lives on the line, or in the line of fire as apy aptly put it, everyday for all of us – with many having lost their lives saving others?February 25, 2016 2:33 am at 2:33 am #1139753homerMember
My Tahara Brethren,
Open your eyes and see what the greater danger is.
Not having the soldiers
Or not having the Lomday Torah?February 25, 2016 3:39 am at 3:39 am #1139754
Come on Joseph, do you really not see the difference between firefighters and soldiers? Yes, firefighting is a dangerous profession, but there is a difference between a fire which, while dangerous, is not actively seeking to kill and destroy as it is not a living conscious being. As opposed to our enemies who would like nothing more than to kill us all if not for the soldiers standing between them and us.
But that’s not the point. The real reason we don’t have a mi sheberach for firefighters is because one wasn’t composed and accepted as part of our tefilah. But one does exist for soldiers and it’s a tefilah that is meaningful and emotional to much of Klal Yisroel. By trying to logically explain why their emotional tefilah is unnecessary is hurtful and offensive and I’m sure you could probably think of a less upsetting why to explain why your kehilah doesn’t say it without minimizing those who do say it.February 25, 2016 3:47 am at 3:47 am #1139755screwdriverdelightParticipant
If you ask our Tahara brethren, their response will probably depend on which of the two–soldiers or Lomdei Torah–results in more deaths, which is what Joseph and <enter the other poster’s name here; I’m too lazy to scroll up and check it> are debating.February 25, 2016 3:50 am at 3:50 am #1139756
It shouldn’t be used as a sword to attack those who don’t say it by implying that they don’t appreciate what soldiers are risking and fighting for…
You do realize that this thread was likely started for that purpose (as was the other I linked to earlier)?
I’m sure many, probably most people who say it do it with pure intentions.
there is a difference between a fire which, while dangerous, is not actively seeking to kill and destroy as it is not a living conscious being. As opposed to our enemies who would like nothing more than to kill us
That’s actually very cynical, to say that the emotion is largely hatred for the enemy, rather than concern for our fellow Yidden’s safety. The better chillul to say would be that more soldiers are at risk and die than do firefighters. Of course that’s not the real reason it was instituted…February 25, 2016 4:05 am at 4:05 am #1139757
My shul doesn’t say the tefilla because our Rav never said we should, because his Rav never said he should. For me thats enough of a reason not to. I’m not in the business of second guessing my Rav.February 25, 2016 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1139758
DY- I didn’t mean that the emotion to say the tefilah is based on a hatred for the enemy. I meant that there is a difference between a firefighter who faces the threat of something that is a dangerous non living thing and a soldier who faces the dangers of a living people who want to destroy him and everyone who he protects.February 25, 2016 4:16 am at 4:16 am #1139759zogt_besserParticipant
the ikar is that not saying misheberach for the IDF is not a chisaron in hakaras hatov but rather an aversion to creating new tefillos. it is not about zionism or politics; rav y.b. soloveitchik was also very machmir about not changing the matbeiah hatefillh and adding stuff in…February 25, 2016 6:13 am at 6:13 am #1139760
Tachlis, for the sake of the actual soldiers…I think I feel better some people here don’t say the mi sheberachFebruary 25, 2016 8:45 am at 8:45 am #1139762shmoolik 1Participant
For those who do not say or accept saying a “me she Beirach” for those who protect the people of Israel
please at least say a perek of tehilim for their success in protecting the people and land of IsraelFebruary 25, 2016 10:31 am at 10:31 am #1139763BarryLS1Participant
The people I asked about this issue after making Aliyah, (all Chareidim) said that the issue was purely political. The lack of HaKoras HaTov for those risking their lives to protect them is astounding.
Politics should NOT enter the equation. Rule # 1…be a Mentch and the lack of HaKoras HaTov is NOT mentchlach.
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