July 23, 2015 2:03 am at 2:03 am #1093991
So does that mean that he gets to say OO type stuff??July 23, 2015 2:07 am at 2:07 am #1093992mord13Member
The halacha is you are not supposed to have simcha and one of the ways of having simcha is showering but a normal human being takes a shower at least every other night so during the 9 days maybe you should downgrade it by taking every 3 nights but not taking a shower in the entire 9 days when it is crazy hot and humid outside is pathetic is trying to be machmar which by the way is pathetic i am not a posek hadar but not to take shower the entire 9 days is a little much.July 23, 2015 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1093993Little FroggieParticipant
Thank you for that one!!!
On target, and very much to the point.July 23, 2015 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1093994
Have you learnt the halachos? Have you read the seforim of the contemporary poskim? Have you spent any time researching the different opinions? Do you realize which Gedolim and Poskim you are calling pathetic?
Clearly not. Your opening statement “the halacha is you are not supposed to have simcha” gives it away. That is not the point. The point is that we are in aveilus. Mourning is not merely the lack of simcha. It is much more than that. When the M.B. says we are supposed to cry for half an hour a day, is that merely to prevent us from having simcha?
The poskim say that in the last generation, when they did not have air conditioning or fans, that the bathhouses were closed for all of the nine days, including Erev Shabbos! I am sure that did not feel too good. Do you consider that pathetic?July 23, 2015 3:35 am at 3:35 am #1093995
It is the ????? ?????? that commands us to make Judaism a “heart”felt and emotional religion. while you’re correct that tangible law permits it, a true jewish soul should be mechayev himself to go beyond the letter of the law and to make what modernishe culture considers the spirit of the law into “the duties of the heart”July 23, 2015 3:45 am at 3:45 am #1093996
Nuuuu?!July 23, 2015 4:09 am at 4:09 am #1093997
annon: Everything is relative. It is probably much more difficult for any of us to go a week without showering than it was for them to do that.
DY: My point is that it’s not OO when he says it because he knows when and how it fits in.July 23, 2015 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1093998
And my point was that it wasn’t OO when anyone else said it either, and if you can’t tell the difference, you should stop guessing.July 23, 2015 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1093999
DY: I’m not guessing. That is the central point of OO–that emotions can let us ignore the Halachic process. How is this any different?July 23, 2015 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1094000
How can you possibly say you’re not guessing when you didn’t even guess correctly?
OO’s emotions come from a secular worldview, and secular values have no place in halachah. Then they end up twisting halachah beyond recognition to fit their agenda.
There are feelings and emotions which are part of Torah values and most certainly are part of halachah, although of course like anything else, various factors need to be balanced.
The entire purpose of the aveilus of bein hametzarim etc. is to feel the churban and galus haShechinah, and saying that it’s not an area in which someone with the proper hergeshim looks for kulas is pashut.
Nothing anyone said is outside of halachah. The basic halachah is not to bathe. Yes, an istenis (which we probably all are nowadays) is allowed, but is there a chiyuv? No, and if he feels that he wants to feel the tzaar haShechinah (kiviyachol), is that something to be scoffed at? Should we not bemoan the fact that that too many of us (and I include myself) are more interested in our physical comfort than in feeling the aveilus we’re supposed to feel?July 23, 2015 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1094001
dy I dont know who you are but most people arnt on the level to be “nosei Ba’ol im Hashchinah” u First have to know what “you’re” missing. when one sits shivah l”a he does so for his own grief.July 23, 2015 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1094002
DY: But the OO don’t claim it comes from a secular worldview (well, some of them). They claim it comes from a Torah view. And if your level of unacceptability is how far from recognizable the Halachah gets twisted, I think your position is indefensible.July 23, 2015 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1094003
KS, I’m not either, but we can feel it a bit. Do you really think the aveilus for the chudban is an exercise in futility? It’s surely not, even though we certainly don’t feel it the way we should.
Sam, their rationalizing that it’s from a Torah perspective doesn’t make it so.
This is not twisting halachah at all. Lifnim mishuras hadin and wanting to feel the aveilus is not merely acceptable in halachah, it is preferable and desired.July 23, 2015 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #1094004
Sam2, there is a Gemorah where Rova said about R’Tarfon:”May his Master forgive him” for holding a certain way. There is a similar Gemorah about R’Akiva. According to you what’s the pshat? They had their Halochik opinions and there is no room for ta’anos! The answer is that they were Hashkofically wrong and they should not have held like they did.It is mefurash in Rashi about R’Tarfon and obvious from the Gemorah itself about R’Akiva.July 23, 2015 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1094005mord13Member
In the olden days they only took a shower before Shabbos that was considered the standers now in America its the standers to take a shower much more often.
By the way you didnt have to say in such an aggressive wayJuly 23, 2015 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1094006
You can’t wake someone up with a whisper.July 23, 2015 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1094007
(Except my wife)July 23, 2015 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1094008
DY: Lifnim Mishuras HaDin can only apply Bein Adam L’atzmo. As soon as you advocate it on someone else, you have changed it.July 23, 2015 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1094009
Keeping Healthy is not “Simcha” Hygenie is very important for a healthy long life. There is a reason our lifespans are around 80 years and not 40 yearsJuly 23, 2015 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1094010zogt_besserParticipant
the gemara says (eiruvin 46a) “???? ????? ????? ????,” which means that regarding aveilus, the halacha will follow the lenient shitah in a machlokes. I can’t say why chazal made it that way, but they clearly had holy intentions in mind when they said we should be lenient by aveilus. To think otherwise and say “no, I want to be machmir anyway” seems to be daas baal habayis hepech daas torah.July 23, 2015 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1094011
Just to give you a little taste of the true Torah perspective, I will quote word-for-word what Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ztl writes with regards to washing oneself during the Nine Days:
??? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????, ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????, ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???’, ???? ?? ?? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ????… ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?’?
He clearly says that the point of the aveilus is to feel the pain, not merely not to have simcha.July 23, 2015 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1094012
Rav Sholmo Zalman is not the only Posek on this issue. Rav Moshe had a different opinionJuly 23, 2015 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1094013
???? ????? ????? ???? does not usually apply with regards to the laws of the nine days and tisha b’av.July 23, 2015 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1094014
Lifnim Mishuras HaDin can only apply Bein Adam L’atzmo. As soon as you advocate it on someone else, you have changed it.
What do you mean, “changed it”?July 23, 2015 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1094015
Rav Sholmo Zalman is not the only Posek on this issue. Rav Moshe had a different opinion
Source?July 23, 2015 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1094016
DY: I mean that you are no longer talking about being Lifnim MiShuras HaDin, which is by definition a personal choice to go above and beyond. If you are endorsing/shaming others into also going Lifnim MiShuras HaDin, you are changing the Ikkar HaDin, which is what I called OO.July 24, 2015 12:25 am at 12:25 am #1094017
Let’s not forget how this thread started. It started with a comment “Can the man that stands next to me in shul and absolutely stinks have a shower. We don’t all have to suffer for your aveilus.”
The implication of that comment is that there is no room to be “stringent”. The comment was shaming anybody who is.
Let’s get it straight. Not taking a shower is not, as you call it, Lifnim MiShuras HaDin. That is the Din. Or as you call it, the Ikkar Din. PERIOD.
There are leniencies which allow certain showering in certain circumstances with certain guidelines. But those are what we call “kullas”. And not all poskim are so happy with them.
So to clarify: There is always Din, Lifnim MiShuras HaDin, and Kullas. Din is not to take any showers. Lifnim MiShuras HaDin may be not to even wash your feet for Shabbos, only hands head and face with cold water and no soap. A Kula might be to take some kind of shower during the week.
Just remember- if you do take your shower during the week, there are rules. Some say only every other day or less frequent than what you are used to. Some say not to wash or immerse the entire body at once; only part by part. You may only stay in the water as little as necessary. And maybe don’t use your best body wash and shampoo that has your favorite fragrance. Remember, you are only allowed to “remove the dirt”, no pleasure is permitted!July 24, 2015 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1094018
Encouraging and even exhorting people to act lifim mishuras hadin is not a perversion of the concept.
If it were all the Baalei Mussar would be guilty.
If you don’t like what anon has to say, fine.
But don’t start employing all your scholarly education to crookedly attack someone.July 24, 2015 1:20 am at 1:20 am #1094019
Sam, as anon correctly points out, the discussion started with demeaning people who keep the din k’pshuto.
Also, telling people that for a particular inyan, it is proper to go lifnim m’shuras hadin (in this case, not to look for kulas) doesn’t change the din. The din remains that there’s a kula to shower (under certain conditions), though it may be proper to be machmir.July 24, 2015 3:04 am at 3:04 am #1094020147Participant
9 days is a short time compared to going an entire Sheloshim without a showerJuly 24, 2015 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1094021
Feivel, I don’t know that the Ba’alei Mussar did that. If you find a proof that some of them did, still who says it is right?July 24, 2015 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1094022
feivel, and Sam2 is not being crooked. You want to argue with his him, fine, but he is not launching crooked attacks.July 24, 2015 3:23 am at 3:23 am #1094023zogt_besserParticipant
I don’t know if not showering is a kulah. While in his teshuvah Rav Moshe says “beemes yeish lehakel,” implying a kulah, the Aruch Hashulchan just flat out says showering is muttar. ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ????? ???.
Also, I saw s source online b’shem rav moshe soloveitchik that our minhagim during the 9 days are copied from minhagim during sheloshim. Because the shulchan aruch says the minhag during sheloshim is not to shower, the minhag also developed not to shower during the 9 days. Now that there is no minhag to not shower during all of sheloshim, maybe the minhag by the 9 days changes too?July 24, 2015 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1094024
Are you joking?
Did you ever learn Mesilas Yeshorim, Chovos HaLevavos or any classic Mussar Sefer?
If you’re not familiar with these Seforim, pick one up, open it to ANY page and you’ll have your proof.
And you then ask: if they indeed did exhort Yiddim to work on themselves to perfect themselves in all regards to go far beyond the minimum required by Halacha in order to reach Shlaymus. You ask: “who says it is right?”
There is no answer to someone who can ask that question.July 24, 2015 3:52 am at 3:52 am #1094025
I’m sorry mdd.
I thought about it.
I’m not familiar with your CR persona.
Either you are new to Yiddishkeit in which case you aren’t familiar with Mussar Seforim.
Or you are a Talmid Chocham. In which case I must be misunderstanding your point.July 24, 2015 3:53 am at 3:53 am #1094026
DY: Attempting to make someone feel bad for asking an honest Shailah (“How can you even think to ask a Shailah?”) is not exhorting someone to go Lifnim MiShuras HaDin. It’s a perversion of the Halachic process. I’m fine with attempting to explain why something might be more important than we may have otherwise realized. I’m fine with trying to stress how much something matters. That’s being honest. Disrupting a Halachic conversation is not and is what I called “OO”.
annon: Notice how going beyond the norm is now considered “every other day”. If we’re talking relative terms, the average American not showering for 10 days is probably someone in the time of the Shulchan Aruch not bathing for 10 weeks or more. Our circumstances are different and, in this very particular case, it has an impact on the Din. No one would dream of going all of Shloshim without showering, even though that’s Ikkar HaDin in a straight reading of Shulchan Aruch. Why don’t you use the same argument towards people in Shloshim? See how far that gets you.July 24, 2015 4:17 am at 4:17 am #1094027
The only one who mentioned not asking a shailah was you Sam, and it still has nothing to do with OO.July 24, 2015 4:18 am at 4:18 am #1094028
That’s not fare! It is simply wrong to take the Aruch HaShulchan completely out of context!
You quote only part of the last line of the three paragraphs. I will judge you favorably. I will assume somebody showed you just that paragraph, without showing you the paragraph preceding this one.
In the previous paragraph, the Aruch HaShulchan speaks about how in his generation people have began to be ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???. He writes how the bathhouses used to be closed all nine days, including Erev Shabbos. He writes ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????.
In the part you are quoting, he is speaking about somebody who soiled himself and needs to remove the dirt. He needs hot water to remove that dirt. He is not talking about somebody who feels yukky and needs a shower. Nobody permits hot water for that! The Aruch Hashulchan does not even permit showering for Shabbos!
Sorry, I did not read your “online” sorces, but all the contemporary Poskim quote the Aruch HaShulchan as being strict on this issue.July 24, 2015 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1094029
DY: I feel that this quote “Of course there are poskim to rely on to take a shower. But is that really what Hashem wants of us? ” crosses a theological line where one has now removed themselves from the confines of Halacha. Can you imagine if the line was reversed? “Of course there are poskim to rely on to keep Shabbos. But is that really what Hashem wants of us? “July 24, 2015 10:46 am at 10:46 am #1094030
Try and think straight for a minute. Your analogy is absurd. His statement was about not availing oneself of a kula, NOT ABOUT REFRAINING FROM A POSITIVE MITZVAH.
The correct analogy would be something like: Of course there are poskim who allow us to build Lego towers on Shabbos, but is that really what Hashem wants of us?
No theological lines have been crossed.
Only the line of Derech eretz, in calling an erliche Yid akin to an apikorus.July 24, 2015 11:23 am at 11:23 am #1094032
Feivel, “Mesilas Yeshorim” openly states that madregos of prishus and chassidus are not obligations for and not expected from a stam Yid in Klal Yirsoel even though, you are right, he is talking many times in an exorting style. That does not change the bottom line that he himself mentions.July 24, 2015 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1094033
Feivel, thank you. Of course being machmjr and being meikil aren’t the same. I don’t know what Sam is thinking.
Mdd, no one is exhorting anyone to engage in general prishus. As has been mentioned, the thrust of the responses to the OP (??????) is to defend those who follow the ikkar din, and don’t shower. This is one particular area, aveilus for the churban, which is being discussed, and as R’ Shlomo Zalman says (based on a gemara in Taanis, ???? ??? ??? ???????.July 24, 2015 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1094034
Its one thing if you take upon yourself a Chumra and it only affects you, and your immediate family. Its quite another if you take a chumra and it affects other people in a negative way (From Odors to diseases and hygene)July 24, 2015 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1094035
So use deodorant and Purell. Wash up a bit more if you still need to. But you don’t need to find loopholes around the dinim of aveilus.July 24, 2015 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1094037
Yes, of course, you’re right.
These are not matters of “obligation”
And I will add: each person on his level.
That does not change the bottom line that he is exhorting.
Which was the issue I was obviously addressing.July 24, 2015 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #1094038
DY, I was not arguing with you — only with a certain point Feivel made.July 24, 2015 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1094039
Feivel, the question then becomes (may we ask numbly) if those things are not even expected from a regular Yid why is the exorting style?July 24, 2015 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1094040
DY and feivel: So I guess that is our point of disagreement. I see no difference in attempting to change Ikkar HaDin L’kula or L’chumra. I think both are perversions of the Halachic process. I think attempting to figure out “what Hashem wants” on top of the Halacha is a code for ignoring the Mesorah and using personal feelings to change “what Hashem wants”. You see, I think Hashem told us what He wants and didn’t leave it for us to change.
The concept of “Kadesh Es Atzm’cha B’mutar Lach” is a personal statement, not a public one. Because once you’ve made it public, you’ve changed the religion.July 24, 2015 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1094041
Maybe because every Yid has tremendous potential. Maybe because every Yid has unlimited siyata d shmaya waiting for him. Maybe because really there is no such thing as a “regular” Yid.
If so, then what did the Ramchal mean?
I don’t know. Maybe he meant anyone who hasn’t yet been inspired to achieve Shlaymus. Or who feels it’s just not for him. But there is no doubt that every Yid can achieve greatness.
It’s a question for much bigger heads than mine.July 24, 2015 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1094042
There’s no toeles to continue.
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