July 24, 2015 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1094043
Your comments are not even worthy of a response. Either you are trying to provoke DY and feivel, or you are seriously misguided.
But I must admit, I truly appreciate your comments. It helps me realize how lost and confused we are in this bitter galus, and how badly we really need the Beis HaMikdash to be rebuilt!July 24, 2015 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1094044
So DY maybe we can learn Halacha later today and see if we can change some Ikrim. First though we have to divine what Hashem says the Halacha is directly, because the Torah doesn’t really tell us.
Let’s make sure to ignore the Mesorah and decide the Halacha according to our feelings. Why we can even change this whole religion
That is what you are trying to do, right?July 24, 2015 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1094045
Ayein Shach YD 242 in where he describes how to Pasken Os 9.July 24, 2015 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1094046zahavasdadParticipant
Showers did not really exist until about 100-150 years ago. There is no mesorah about ShowersJuly 24, 2015 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1094047rabbiofberlinParticipant
annon-sinple,if your problems can be solved by rebuilding the Baiys Hamikdosh- “bimehero bejmenu- you can make “alyah’ and move to eretz yisroel. That would be useful step,don’t you thin?July 24, 2015 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1094048
That’s ridiculous!July 24, 2015 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1094049zahavasdadParticipant
One is not supposed to rely on a miracleJuly 24, 2015 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1094050
Annon: By the way, the reason that bathing is Assur isn’t in order that you feel dirty; it’s because bathing itself is enjoyable.July 26, 2015 3:57 am at 3:57 am #1094051
Ever heard of ???? ????? And besides, don’t think it’s a miracle if it’s for just 9 days!
Either you missed the post where I quoted Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l word for word, or you don’t understand Hebrew….July 26, 2015 5:36 am at 5:36 am #1094052☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
??? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????, ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????, ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???’, ???? ?? ?? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ????… ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?’?
It is worth looking at the footnotes in R’ Simcha Bunim Cohen’s sefer on the Three Weeks (pg. 91) where he brings b’shem R’ Shach that we don’t find an avel looking for a heter to wash, and R’ Cohen asserts that he means like R’ Shlomo Zalman, and that therefore, the question someone asked on R’ Shach (similar to Sam) that we don’t pasken from emotion, is “???? ????”.July 27, 2015 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1094053
Sam2 and Da’as Yochid, both of you are partially right, but, Sam2, you have not answered my question about R’Tarfon and R’Akiva.July 27, 2015 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1094054
mdd: I didn’t see your question until now. But I’m not sure I understand it. Even great people can be mistaken. That happens.July 27, 2015 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1094055
My vote is that it Rova is more likely correct in the Gemora with R’ Tarfon, and the same regarding R’ Akiva, then Rova being wrong and Sam being correct.July 27, 2015 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1094056
Sam2, in the Gemorah in Sukka R’Tarfon held a very machmiring shita about chadassim. Rova said about it:”May his Master forgive him…”. Rashi explains there that he is too machmir and burdens the Yidden. In the Rabbi Akiva Gemorah one of the Tannoim says:”Let us come and scream at Akiva ben Yosef for he is marbe mamzeirm be’Yisroel <with his machmiring shita>”. According to you, what in the world is going on — they learnt the sugya and this is what they held?July 27, 2015 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1094057
mdd: They held he was wrong. What’s wrong with that? You could have brought better, the Gemara in Sanhedrin about R’ Hillel. I don’t see why that’s a problem. Great people can be wrong. These other Tannaim or Amoraim held that the Tannaim or Amoraim were wrong. Again, why is that relevant?July 27, 2015 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1094058
Sam: What is your source that Rava was wrong about R’ Tarfon and the Tanna was wrong about R’ Akiva in criticizing R’ Tarfon and R’ Akiva for ever expressing their shitta?July 28, 2015 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1094059
Sam2. WHY were they wrong?July 28, 2015 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1094060
Joseph: I’m confused. How am I saying Rava is wrong? Rava presumably had the authority to say R’ Tarfon erred. I don’t have the authority to say anyone erred (or, at least, any Tanna or Amora; I say you’re wrong all the time 😛 ).
mdd: R’ Tarfon was wrong for two reasons, presumably. #1 is that he did not have the correct Halachah; if he did then the discussion cannot happen. #2 is that, on top of that, his special Chumra is not worth saying because the Hefsed far outweighs the gain.
R’ Akiva is another story entirely. I point out that there are lots of statements from the Tannaim that seem mean to R’ Akiva. I’ve never had a great Pshat why, though I have some theories. In this particular instance, though, I would repeat the same two-step process. R’ Yesheivav (I think) is saying R’ Akiva got the Limmud wrong to begin with. That being a given, we then say that R’ Akiva’s Shittah should be strongly decried because the outcome is so bad that it shouldn’t even be said. Meaning, usually you can just argue with a wrong Shittah and we trust that the right Shittah wins. Here, we have to strongly reject the wrong Shittos so that no one will ever think it’s correct because the outcome of those wrong Shittos are so horrible.July 28, 2015 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1094061
Sam2, you got it so wrong in both cases! The was nothing wrong with R’Tarfon’s lamdus. His hashkofah was incorrect. He should have had a different hashkofah and tried to arrive to a different psak. It is all mefurash in Rashi! Drop your preconcieved notions and just read what Rashi wrote. Same goes for the second case.July 28, 2015 3:47 am at 3:47 am #1094062
mdd: Well, this will all boil down to whether you assume like the Rambam or Geonim in the Hishtalsh’lus of Torah Sheba’al Peh. You are assuming like the Rambam. If my assumption is the Geonim (which I thought Rashi usually follows so this will be interesting; I’ll have to be M’ayein more) what you are saying is untenable.July 28, 2015 6:00 am at 6:00 am #1094063
Sam2, just read it straight. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH THEIR LAMDUS. The Gemorah does not have any direct kashios. Just admit that you were wrong.July 28, 2015 6:14 am at 6:14 am #1094064
It is openly stated that R’Tarfon needed forgivness for holding like he held and it was not because of negligence in remembering or deducing the right Halochah. I understand it goes against your basic assumptions, but just admit those were wrong.July 28, 2015 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1094065
Sam – mdd’s point is to prove to you from these two Gemorah’s that hashkofo is important and that people need to have the correct hashkofo not the wrong hashkofo.July 28, 2015 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1094066
mdd: What you are saying does not make any sense. If their Limmud was right, then they got the right Halachah. According to the Geonim, that’s all there is to it. If we get into the Rambam it will be a bit different. Then I could hear the claim that the Limmud was wrong *because* it came from a wrong outlook.
And how was this relevant to this thread anyway?July 28, 2015 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1094067
Sam2, stop repeating your views, JUST LEARN THOSE GEMOROS WITH AN OPEN MIND.July 28, 2015 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1094068
mdd: I know those Gemaras. The Rambam and the Geonim knew those Gemaras. Claiming that the Drasha is invalid because of their Hahkafa is absurd. Who are you (or who is anyone) to destroy a Halachah because you don’t like the Hashkafa behind it? That thought belongs right in line with those who say to let gays marry because the Hashkafa of stopping them from doing it is wrong.July 28, 2015 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1094069
Sam2, what you are saying is outrageous. ROVA SAID THAT! GET IT? You are contradiicting 2 Gemoros,July 28, 2015 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1094070
mdd: I have no idea why you are having such trouble with what I am saying. Rava said R’ Tarfon was wrong. I gave a perfectly reasonable explanation why, which is not far from what you said in the first place.
And again, how is this relevant to this thread? Are you trying to get me to say that I think R’ Shlomo Zalman made a Hashkafic mistake? Sorry, no dice. Won’t happen.July 28, 2015 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1094071
You are ignoring what the Gemoros are saying. And I am trying to teach you a general Torah principle and i am not talking about the R’Shlomo Zalman’s case. And I believe i have written enough. I rest my case.July 28, 2015 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1094072
mdd: I am not ignoring what the Gemaras are saying. I explained what the Gemaras are saying. You are trying to teach a general Torah principle that… what? Gedolim can make mistakes? I agreed with that already. All you wrote was this Gemara proves something and then have gone on to repeat that I’m not reading the Gemaras. Well, I am reading the Gemaras and my explanation basically agreed with you. I really have zero idea what you’re driving at right now.July 28, 2015 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1094073
Sam, I explained to you the point mdd is driving at. That not every hashkafa is acceptable.July 28, 2015 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1094074
Joseph: Of course not every Hashkafa is acceptable. When or where have I ever claimed otherwise? I started this whole thing by saying that a poster’s Hashkafa was unacceptable.July 28, 2015 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1094075michoel kMember
if you need to take one you could of courseJuly 29, 2015 12:59 am at 12:59 am #1094076
Sam2, the point is that when a Talmid Chohom approaches a shailah he can say a svorah this way or another way. What he should bear in mind when choosing a direction is what is the right direction to try to go in hashkofically: is this right or wrong, nice or not nice.July 29, 2015 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1094077
mdd: That’s absurd. Shailos often have an answer only one way or another. And “Hashkafa” doesn’t determine what that answer should be.July 29, 2015 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1094078
Sam2, stop it already. If something is open and mefurash — yes. That’s why i wrote that you are partially right, Sometimes, however, it is a new sugya and a big Talmid Chohom can go in a number of ways. Learnt Tosfos ever?July 29, 2015 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1094079
mdd: Nope, never glanced at a Tosfos 🙂
That aside, though, I am very disturbed by your conflation of “Hashkafa” with “Derech HaPskak”.July 29, 2015 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1094080
I am under the impression (and it’s only my impression) that Sam is operating under the (probably subconscious, though he might deny it) derech that the Torah is fixed and immutable both in Shamayim and b eretz, and the Chochomim seek to understand it, to bring it down so to speak.
Whereas mdd seems to hold that the Torah is alive and comes to concretion through the processing,the Daas, the Holy Neshamos, of the ChochomimJuly 29, 2015 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1094081
feivel: I think I agree that’s what I think, for the most part. There are exceptions, of course. Masrah HaTorah Lechachamim and such. But I think the Shittas HaGeonim it certainly like that. According to the Rambam it’s much more nuanced.July 29, 2015 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1094082
So do you think maybe this foundational difference in outlook is why you and mdd are unable to see “eye to eye”?July 29, 2015 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1094083
feivel: Maybe. If mdd says that that is his assumption then yes, your point makes sense.
To which I, of course, will respond that the theory that the Chachamim get to decide what Torah is, not to discover what it is, is very, very wrong. 🙂July 29, 2015 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1094084
Sam2, let me elaborate. Let’s say there is a stirah between two sugyos. Ba’alei ha’Tosfos come and offer, say, 4 svoros-terutzim to reconcile the sugyos. The ta’anah on those Tanoim was that they should not have offered those terutzim that they had offered — for hashkofic reasons. It is abundantly clear if onr is willing to see.July 30, 2015 1:44 am at 1:44 am #1094085
mdd: My explanation is equally clear. More so, we’re not really disagreeing at all. You have left the area of Halachah Pesukah and saying it’s only Shayach when there are multiple Mehalchim. I said it’s only Shayach where the Limmud is wrong/isn’t Muchrach. Not so much different there.July 30, 2015 2:55 am at 2:55 am #1094086
Sam2, when the limud is wrong, there is nothing to talk about. The whole concept applies when there is a number of ways to go.July 30, 2015 3:29 am at 3:29 am #1094087
mdd: When the Limmud is wrong, that doesn’t necessarily mean whoever said it needs Mechilah from HKBH.July 30, 2015 4:31 am at 4:31 am #1094088
THERE IS NO INDICATION whatsoever that R’Tarfon’s limud was wrong! It’s regular shita of a Tanna — just we pasken like R’Akiva and not like him. The only ta’anah was that he should have found a way to be more meikal.July 30, 2015 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #1094089
mdd: Well, according to the Geonim (if he’s just trying to restore what the Mesorah was to Moshe at Sinai), what you are claiming is not feasible. Within the Rambam, it could work. So we’re at a Machlokes Rishonim.
You say there’s no indication within that gemara. I might agree. But the fact is that no Gemara stands alone. The Geonim were aware of this Gemara and still have their comprehensive Shittah of Torah Sheba’al Peh, which the Chazon Ish recently ascribed to. He also knew the Gemara. So either you’ve found something with which to reject all of their opinions, or you can read the Gemara in the context of the entirety of what Torah Sheba’al Peh is.July 30, 2015 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1094090
It is no stirah to the shittah of the Geonim!!! A Chohom may try to restore the real halochah, but he may go down the wrong path! Part of the right way to restore is to take into account what I am saying.July 30, 2015 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1094091
Sam2, be’kitzur stop beiig difficult.July 30, 2015 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1094092
When Rishonim or Achronim answer a stirah between two sugyos, they make an educated conjecture trying to restore the real halochah. The point is that some conjectures should not be made because they are not nice. What is so difficult to accept?!?
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