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B’H I don’t know anyone who went OTD, in general. Does that mean no one went OTD?
There used to be a pop singer in the 80’s (not the one who died recently) who used to wear a tuxedo out of respect for his audience, even though he wasn’t singing anything respectful. Don’t Hashem, His Torah, and Shabbos deserve a similar respect, to be feted with bigdei Shabbos instead of golfwear? It is also making a provocative statement when the minhag hamakom is not to dress that way for Shabbos. If I walk down 125th Street in Harlem wearing a white bedsheet and a white hood, saying “But kabbalah says I should dress in white!” doesn’t take away from the fact that I am making a provocative statement, wheras if a toddler walks around in a white bedsheet he’s just playing “ghost”. One shouldn’t judge others by his clothing, but someone who goes out of his way to violate social norms has to be viewed differently.
There is a midrash where Hashem says that when little children read “Ahava” (“Love”) as “Eiva” (“hate”), He loves it, even though the children completely messed up the passuk and said you should hate Hashem. If an adult purposely misread the word, Hashem wouldn’t find it so cute. The difference is that the adult should have known better . That means that the exact same action can be performed by 2 different people and can be legitimately viewed through different prisms. A baal teshuva, ger, or out-of-towner who dresses that way is clearly not making the same statement, and has to be judged more favorably.
Joseph, of course not. I was specifically asking about people who went OTD as a result of attending college. A600KiloBear mentioned the “many” MO he knows “who went off the derech the minute they got to college” because they “didn’t have the weapons to combat the kefirah” they were taught there, specifically because they were MO. This was not true of those who attended my public university, which was less than 0.5% frum students, mostly MO. (I mention the demographics because it would seem that any kefirah would be more damaging on a campus with very few frum students).
I simply asked SJS to share her experiences too. I hope that clarified my point.
Sigh.
Hi, everyone, it’s David Bar-Magen, infrequent poster. Why infrequent? There’s rarely any point.
Cantoresq, if you haven’t already realized it by reading certain posts in this thread, the answer to your original question is yes.
To those posters, you know who you are:
Take some time to cool off a little and read your own statements over to yourselves. Ask yourselves if you’d draw similarly grand and sweeping conclusions about people you meet face-to-face in the street. Oh, well, you probably would.
BS”D
to serve G-d as I understand the concept,
Cantoresq, your many comments here and your constant need for validation when you know full well you are doing things wrong show that sadly, you do not understand “the concept”. Instead, you and others like you have indeed turned Shabbos into a Sunday without driving, and Judaism into a Protestant style religion. That, unfortunately, is the flip side of living amidst the American culture of “whatever floats my boat”.
And at Columbia University from 1984-8, the MO dropout rate was a good 15%, with 10-15 kids dropping out in every class every year. (Contrast that to about 2-3 baalei tshuva each year.) The dropouts formed a social circle of their own, just as OTD teens do at the fringes of large communities.
I knew of only one dropout among the many whom I was familiar with who had indeed already dropped out before college and was just waiting to get away from her parents in order to make the final break. I think there was one more who had begun his descent in EY. When it came to the rest, many of us were shocked that they left and it was clear that they could not stand up to the intense kefira that was taught as part of the required curriculum at Columbia. A nominally “Orthodox” campus rabbi (now retired) who himself was of YCT type hashkafah did not help matters; his attitude toward frumkeit was such that he hardly cared whether students dropped out and in fact he urged students to study philosophy and not just what was needed for parnossoh or admittance to graduate school.
A600KiloBear,
1-How do you feel about Touro College, teaching the same subject matter as all other colleges, and similarly the Raizel Reit program? Few college students take philosophy courses in even secular colleges. They are not a neccesity for degrees.
2-How do you explain the major problem of OTD kids from Chassidic homes, who had no connection to Kfirus related subjects?
Do you really think the color of cantoresq’s slacks will more negatively effect his children than your straight-jacket cookie-cutter mindset will ch”v effect your kids?
OK lets back-pedal to the original post.
1) Cantoresq talking about increasing his learning on Shabbos for the sake of the community
2) A neighbor put him down, not for his wardrobe per se, but because he was giving a shiur in his wardrobe. The way I read it, the person had come across Cantoresq’s wardrobe before and hadn’t minded, but was appalled at the thought of someone who wasn’t dressed in “black and white” was going to teach over Torah. That is a terrible attitude.
3) Then Cantoresq got chastised for desacrating Shabbos by spending time with his children! All the people I spoke to about the OTD crisis, have said one of the best deflectors of OTD is to have involved parents. Building a relationship with children is NOT an overnight thing – it starts when they are young and slowly builds a strong foundation of love, trust, understanding etc. So, I applaud Cantoresq for taking the time to build this relationship. There is a lot more to chinuch than just making sure they can read a blatt of gemara. His kids are also still young (I think he mentioned that none are in HS yet), so obviously the activities are tailored around more juvenile pursuits. Shabbos comes before sunday and as such, if his kids haven’t seen him much during the week, they will want to spend time with their father (and mother). My son loves Shabbos because he gets to spend all day with us, and he is only 17 months old! I would imagine that an older child appreciates it even more.
4) As for “dressing down” for Shabbos afternoon – when I was working and had to wear formal attire for work, on Shabbos, I wore different clothing. It was generally a little more casual than my weekday wardrobe at that point, but when I wore the clothing I wore to work, I didn’t feel like it was Shabbos. When I switched to a casual position, I changed back to my fancier clothing for Shabbos. Ironically, I think black and white is totally wrong for Shabbos because I was a waitress for 7 years – our uniform was black skirt and white shirt. To me, its working clothes. My husband however wears white shirts only on Shabbos, so to him its special for the day. I think clothing is so overemphasized in the Orthodox communities. I honestly don’t take anyone too seriously if they invest that much emphasis on what you are wearing, so long as the clothing is tzanua and generally appropriate (meaning, not walking into shul in a bathing suit). I prefer to see a poorly dressed person who is very sincere to someone who is the opposite.
Kilo, while those people may have gone OTD, did you ever ask them if it was because of the kefira they learnt at Columbia? They may have been silently rebellious and just waiting for an opportunity to find others like them. And by others, I mean OJ who also wanted to leave the fold.
feivel:
No matter what your “work” during the Sheishes Yomim is, even if it is carrying toothpicks in your mouth, that is the “shevisa”. (Don’t start with Kollel) The basis of the 39 was the work done in the Mishkan; Then there are the other points of Daber Davar, etc. But I’m getting completely off topic.
I know this is old, but this stupid thread reminds me of it.
When eliyahu Hanavi comes to announce the Geula, nobody will listen to him.
The yeshivish wont like the color of his shirt or the shape of his hat, the Chasiddish wont like the length of his jacket, the Sefardim wont like his havara, some will have taanos that he has no college degree, while others will be upset that he has an mba. Some wont like the size, shape or color of his yarmulka, while others will be surprised that he wears one at all. Some wont like his shtickel torah, and others will be upset he didnt give tikkun with kichul and herring.
The most sensible response to this entire thread was offered by the one who wrote, “I dont normally reply because there is nothing ot reply to”. Truly nothing but silliness. Right before the three weeks to. Oh well.
abx wrote:
“A policeman wears a police uniform, a fireman wears a fireman uniform, and a Ben Torah wears a Ben Torah uniform.”
True, but these are updated and adopted to the time and place, whereas we seem to be stuck with the winter 19th century dress of some cold European country.
doniels – note the second part of my post: “Dress yourself like those who you identify yourself with, while conforming to (at least) minimum community standards.”
I wasn’t suggesting that everyone should wear a long jacket. I just mean that (tell me if you disagree) there is an accepted way for certain groups to dress and if you are part of that group and proud of it, you should look more like them than like a different group.
My last post on this topic.
Halacha is that one wears bigdei Shabbos on shabbos. It’s not violating a melacha, but such is kavod shabbos, and such is kavod hatzibbur. At the same time, it’s not a melacha, and a genuine desire to wear bigdei Shabbos comes from an elevated understanding of Shabbos that many do not have, and cannot be expected to have. If a teenager dresses down a bit for Shabbos because this is where he’s holding, then good for him. If a baal teshuva or someone from an out-of-town community does that because that is the normal mode of dress, then someone who does that is not making any kind of statement. I judge such people favorably. Somebody who is an adult and knows better, and is just doing it to be lecha’is in-your-face “I’m better than you”, gets judged differently. There is a reason why Zimri, who was boel aramis befarhesya, (“Hey, if Moshe can do it so can I!”) gets treated differently from someone who slips in private. A kid who wears a white bedsheet and a white hood to look like a ghost gets judged differently than an adult parading down 125th Street in Harlem.There is also a difference between dressing down in one’s house( where one is not trying to make a statement) and doing it while giving a public shiur in a place where the minhag is not that way, in order to be lehach’is and play “holier than thou”. I do agree that too many of the former category are unfairly judged when they are not trying to make a statement. If Cantoresq was a teen poster I would have a lot more sympathy, and my reponse would be much different. Yelling at someone who cannot be expected to understand kavod shabbos is like yelling at a color-blind man for not discerning between green and red. It’s counter-productive. This was also the reason I refrained from posting in this thread the first few days.
As for the “kids in black and white acting worse on Shabbos”, I don’t see how 2 wrongs make a right. Furthermore, one expects different things from kids (who don’t understand) than from adults who do understand.
Furthermore, Cantoresq declared, in an earlier Purim thread here, his belief in the old anti-religious screed that Purim is a made-up holiday as part of a conspiracy to eliminate Nicanor Day. Such apikorsus is beyond the pale of Orthodoxy, and someone who makes such a statement need not be judged favorably.Denying the validity of one of the 24 books of Tanach can’t be good. I doubt there is anyone else here who calls himself Orthodox but says megillas Esther is sheker. Nobody, no matter how Orthoprax , can espouse such beliefs and expect Orthodox people to judge him favorably.
R’ Avigdor Miller Z’l is reputed to have said “if yeshiva bachurim would wear yellow hats, so would I”.
Clothing identifies you as part of a certain group.
With some of the replies I am reading here, I am seriously reconsidering my black suit and white shirt (and yes, black hat) on shabbos. If the team that wears this uniform can express such a snobbish, horrible, attitude, I think I want to switch uniforms and be identified with another team.
jphone, please do. Then your uniform will be in line with your views.
Jothar,
Good, thoughtful post.
One point- Everyone has their own baggage, and no one knows what is behind another’s door. So I wouldn’t judge an “adult who seemingly should know better” either. The “holier than thou” attitude, whether coming from the right or left such as cantoresq is most often a personal reflection on the individual’s history rather than a systemic phenomenon of the left or right, and should be received with sympathy.
adios.
Whoa Jothar, I think you’re being a little too harsh. While I did not read the Purim post you are refering to, I don’t think that questioning the status quo automaticaly makes someone a kofer. MO maybe, but an Outkast? That’s steep.
Cantor – By the very story of the Alter you post, the point of a dress code is only further substantiated. Refined people (jews and goyim) dress like a mentch when in the presence of Someone or something greater than themselves. Even Eisov (so says the medrash) put on his best clothing to serve Yitzchok. What you wear says alot about where you’re coming from.
As far as being meshadech with you, my critera is very simple: if your daugher thinks a rollerblade is an attachement to a food processor, she is a fine girl, but not what we are looking for. If she knows the right answer, chances are she knows her way around the kitchen as well. I’d also like to know what’s on her Ipod (another good indicator of who the person really is. Not that there’s a right or wrong in taste of music; but its does tell you who your’re dealing with. Money, looks, dress size, ect, ect, are all relative anyways, so I don’t make that a priority. Obviously, middos, religion and presentability have to be reasonably compatible, but that could be said for 90% of girls and boys. Its the last 10% that makes a marriage work (uh, oh.. I’m off topic – Sorry Mods!)
(and if any of my real world friends are reading this, my anonymity has been shot out of the water!)
if someone were going to meet the president or the vilna goan and he would go in khakis and a polo then it would be understandible correct for him to daven and learn as such. however most people if they would visit the president or the gadol hador would dress in their finest, and chas vishalom without a jacket and tie! so its a bizoyon how these people which is most of the present population can justify going to shul on shabbos in the afternoon or even during the week without a jacket and at least a button down shirt-WERE TALKING ABOUT THE MELECH MALCHEI HAMLACHIM, KING OF ALL KIGS! im not saying im perfect because even though i wear a jacket and hat i dont wear a tie even though i would put on a tie to meet the president
DA LIFNEI MI ATO OMEID- KNOW WHO YOUR STANDING IN FRONT OF!
jothar
i didnt see that Purim post (thank G-d)
but thank you for mentioning it
that explains everything
also, very nicely reasoned and articulated post
Joseph, your new attitude is highly commendable.
I wore a jean skirt, tshirt and sneakers to meet Al Gore. I guess I can go to shul like that!
To Cantoresq: you say you could care less. So how much do you care? 😉
Interesting about the talmidim of Slabodka. In so much of Europe there was such poverty that such standards may not have been feasible, as in the apocryphal story of the girl who sewed a button on a jacket a boy wore when visiting for a shidduch; she’d saved the button since it fell off the jacket when the last boy wore it. I doubt that the cut of the jacket was “yeshivish” as much as what was considered basic presentable for those days.
SJ
for Algore that is perfectly fitting attire
Cantor –
The key word is refined. If you (and your community) feel what you’re wearing is up to par, kol ha’kavod. But if you’re wearing it with an in-your-face attitude, thats another story.
My shul is frequented by many visitors, as we are walking distance to both BP hotels. And yes, the occasional guest wallks in without a jacket (and sometimes even in sandals w/o socks!). But if I were to do that, I’d get my head handed to me.
Bottom line: if you feel like you’re dress code is appropriate, its your call. But what if the next person (or perhaps your own child / child-in-law) wants to take id down a notch to where THEY feel comfortable? That’s why we have standards. And for the most part (where its a grey area) our gedolei hador set those standards. OU/YU may have different standards than Chabad or Satmar, but they have one common denominator: They try to look like their zeides and babbes, in both deed and presentation.
Squeak, Joseph, you’re attitude is horrific. You may have learned lots of halacha, but absolutely no mussar.
I am more than happy to resign my position from your team.
cantoresq: I’d like to make a point, If someone made it already,
sorry, I didnt read all posts. I’m not going into that “uniform”
conversation, that has nothing to do with Shabbos!
I understand your working hard all week & Shabbos is a day of rest.
However it is a holy day, holier than any Yom Tov or day. (see maariv leil Shabbos)Shabbos requires respect & holiness, see, kiddush, & zemiros shabbos, etc..
The word kavod is applied to shabbos. When one goes to see the President
one dresses appropriately even though he is a goy & sometimes & pera Odom!
This is for respect, especially if one visits a King or Queen,
even more so if they are actually Respectable, & Honorable.
One cannot use an excuse when visiting a King in casual attire, since he
dresses formal all week, he wants to be comfortable in his casual attire.
Shabbos is a Queen, I’m not saying what color suit or shoes
one should wear or color shirt, (although an inyan to wear white on shabbos)
just be honest with yourself, & wear what would be considered universally
respectable to visit a president as opposed to what one would wear golfing.
At least for Shul & Seudos, after that im sure you are allowed to enjoy
Oneg Shabbos, in comfortable attire.
For Shabbos can’t even be compare to any President or human King!)
In the Zchus That we show proper respect for the Holy Shabbos
may the world bestow respect on our Holy Nation, & may we merit the
Geulah Shleima, B’korov! Omein!
“I made sure to hear every word of the Megillah twice, send shalach manot and had a seuda. “
and you gave gifts to l’evyonim of course.
Ames, ishman made a comment about meeting the president. The vice-president generally gets the same level of respect. I was just saying that I wore a jean skirt to meet him, which is not shul attire. If I were going to meet a great Rav on a weekday, I would still dress casually, but be extra careful to make sure I was tzanua. Its Shabbos that gets me to dress to a better standard l’kavod shabbos, not l’kavod whatever the neighborhood requires.
I don’t believe in non-sensical uniforms. Luckily, I haven’t lived in an area that ever required one.
ishman: sorry i guess i missed ur post.
SJSinNYC: If you were stranded alone on an island,
& had ur finest clothes with u Kavod Shabbos would require
u 2 don them on Shabbos.
The point however about neighbors / community,
that is not nogeah here, however it would be in the best interest of any
person in any community to wear clothes similar to his community
1)Not 2 b Oiver Al Tifroish Min Hatzibur.
2)So as to not be an outcast, or looked upon as weird. (bringing hardship on oneself)
3)Not to give shallow judgemental people a Nisayon.
#3 might be up for discussion
Bein, for Shabbos, I always dress in what I consider to be clothing that will bring about kavod shabbos for me. Luckily, I don’t live in a judgemental community so #1 and #2 don’t quite apply.
#3 is an interesting discussion point. Should we start a spinoff?
before I comment I would like to say that I have been loosely following this thread.
b_h, regarding number 1, the tzibbur is dependent on where you live. Boro park soes not have the same accepted dress as Miami. I’m not saying one is right or wrong, just different.
A question regarding number 2: if someone lives out of “town” and decides for whatever reason to wear a black suit with a black hat on Shabbos, would that be considered dressing as an outcast? for that area it is not the norm.
Change of heart. CR is a tough addiction to break. So much for my kabbala to avoid machlokes during the 3 Weeks. I’ll try to be less aggressive though. Maybe I’ll stay away during the 9 days…
SJS, you say you don’t live in a judgmental community, and you don’t judge people by their clothing, so let’s put it to the test. Walk into shul on shabbos like you lived in Williamsburg- wearing an obviously fake wig, a hat on top of it, Williamsburg-style dark navy blue dress, and stockings with an obvious seam. None of your friends will say anything? And you will feel exactly the same as if you walked into shul dressed in your usual shabbos clothing? If the answers to both are honestly “no difference”, kol hakavod. Are you willing to do a gentlemen’s bet on this?
The following two questions are addressed to everyone else here as well.
Let’s say you were riding the subway, and it’s a long subway ride there were 2 seats left. One was next to a finely-groomed gentleman wearing a suit. The other was next to someone dressed like he’s from the ‘hood, with a do-rag and dreadlocks, flashing a lot of bling and a menacing scowl. Whom do you sit next to? If you can honestly say “toss-up”, kol hakavod.
2 salesmen approach you trying to sell you something or close a business deal. One of them is an immaculate dresser. The other is sloppy, disheveled, and has yellowed teeth and a faint body odor. Which one is more likely to close the deal with you? If you can honestly say “toss-up”, kol hakavod.
To Kapusta, how do you define out of town? That’s par for the course in the out of town cities I’ve lived in and visited.
Jothar- those have got to be some of the best questions i’ve heard that show a point!
kol hakavod!
Jothar what do those examples have to do with cantoresq?? He isn’t smelly or dirty…
Jothar, if I wore Williamsburg style clothing all the time in my shul, no one would bat an eye. But if I wore it out fo the blue, people would ask my why.
I would sit next to the guy where I could see the subway map best.
I would take the groomed salesman because I dont want to deal with people with body odor. Unless I knew he could get me a better deal.
SJS, I have a hard time believing that you, as a woman, would sit down next to any stranger no matter how menacing, as long as it makes it easier to read the subway map. But if it’s true, then you are the exception to the rule. Nonverbal communication is a major form of communication, and clothing is major form of nonverbal communication.
kapusta: Good question!…..
But It really boils down to If one dresses with a black hat etc.. as you say,
does he/she have to dress down if hes in a outta town community
to not be Poiresh Min Hatzibur?
The answer is No. This is mentioned right away in Shulchan Aruch/Mishna Berurah,
“Vloy Yisbayesh Mipnei Bnei Adam Hamaligim Olov Bavoidas Hashem”
for when it comes to Ruchnius If one is on a certain level
& dresses a certain way with Ehrlichkeit he should not
be discouraged by what ppl think.
Secondly the outta towners know there are ppl who dress this way
its not like he tailored himself a neon green Beketcha!
Thirdly there is a klal Maalim Bakoidesh,
Which translates to, in things that are Holy we go up, not down.
I heard once heard a story that a chassid who wore a Shtreimel
became a Chabbad Chossid & wanted to start wearing a benddown hat
to fit in there. & the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L Said he should continue
wearing the Shtreimel Altz, “Maalim Bakoidesh”
(I can’t confirm if the story is true)
However I was trying to bring out a point.
As I commented earlier one should no judge snother person by his clothes etc.
However, the following has come to mind
A man with a black hat, beard, black suit, white shirt and tie walks into a shul to give a shiur – what would the congregation say about the man? I suppose it would go along the lines of “Rabbi…..” If a guy in chinos, shirt and blazer walks in and gives a shiur, I must confess it doesn’t carry the same weight – like it or not. We would look to this guy as just that – a guy giving a shiur. Nothing wrong with that you say. Correct. But it does add to the extra kovod of shabbos of a suited guy who goes that little bit further to how he dresses.
By the way the same applies to women in their manner of dress.
The fact that the neighbor commented means that they felt the same way.
I still maintain we should not judge but maybe the way of life is that we should not cause the positionn where the comment is then made.
To Bein Hasedorim: can YOU define out of town for me? Sounds like many of you have never been there.
BS”D
I heard once heard a story that a chassid who wore a Shtreimel
became a Chabbad Chossid & wanted to start wearing a benddown hat
to fit in there. & the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L Said he should continue
wearing the Shtreimel Altz, “Maalim Bakoidesh”
(I can’t confirm if the story is true)
It is true and it pertained to the son of a well known Chassidishe rebbe in Yerushalayim who became a Lubavitcher and settled in Crown Heights, where he still wears the levush of his family’s Chassidus to this day.
tzippi: I was merely replying to a scenario that Kapusta had put forth.
I”m not saying out of town areas dress in chinos, sandals, etc..
However in a case where a black hatter, dark suited, guy would feel out of place
this where the question comes in play, & I answered accordingly.
Tzippi, out of town is not limited just to Monsey,
you probably haven’t been around.
there are many places, where a guest would find himself
the only hat in the shul. (not including caps)
One shul I was at, was looking for a Rabbi/Bal koreh/Bal Tefillah…
I looked like a suitable Rabbi for them!
& I dont look like a Rabbi!!!
SJSinNYC: about the spinoff, 🙂
I must try 2 avoid any heated discussions during the 3 weeks.
cantoresq: c’mon nobody said The torah taught by a casually dressed is percieved as less worthy, the torah if it is Toras Emes, it is Toras Emes!
It’s just sad that the man himself would choose to not dress respectably
thus taking away from the kavod hatorah that would be bestowed upon him
had he chosen to dress accordingly.
(This is all in general, I’m not talking about a specific case)
I’m not saying what the proper garb is.
I’m talking respectable,
Like wearing shorts, 2 give a Shiur, on shabbos in shul
would be a disgrace in my opinion.
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