July 13, 2009 4:37 am at 4:37 am #650426
I keep hearing these radio commercials for Cintas Uniforms. These commercials make the point that someone who isn’t dressed in a uniform isn’t taken as seriously as someone who is. The Torha goes out of its way to state that Aharon Hakohen wears clothing for “kavod ul’tiferes”. If clothing doesn’t make a difference, why bother? Let Aharon come to work in jeans and a t-shirt? Clearly the Torah is stressing that bigdei kehuna add honor and glory to Aharon. Did the Torah abrogate its duty too C”V?July 13, 2009 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #650427SJSinNYCMember
Jothar, I think there is more to be said with other non-verbal communication than clothing. I learnt this lesson at a chess tournament. This gangsta-hood looking guy asked me to play a game. Over the game, I discovered he was a master and smart and funny…he just looked like you would find him in the middle of Harlem dealing drugs…that was a big lesson to me.
Now, not all clothing queues should be ignored. I was once on the A train and had to switch at 145th St. It was summer and everyone was dressed in light clothing. Except for a big black guy wearing a winter coat. I was terrified of what was under his coat, and at some point I saw a glint of metal when he moved. I jumped on the next train even though it wasn’t the one I needed. There was NO need for me to risk being in a shootout of some kind. Or his next victim.July 13, 2009 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #650428
Bein, that is precisely what Nobody said. Here is the quote: “If a guy in chinos, shirt and blazer walks in and gives a shiur, I must confess it doesn’t carry the same weight”
Jothar, your point is sort of a red herring. Ironically, I believe very much in very formalized synagogue services. Were I to have my druthers, rabbis would wear striped pants, Prince Albert’s and “Tzilinderlech.” Chazzanim would wear robes and cantorial hats. And no man would be allowed in schul Shabbat morning without a jacket and tie. There is absolutely a time and place for majesty, including clerical rainment. The Bigdei Kehuna, along with serving many other functions, are part of that. But there is also a time and place, in schul, for fraternal informality and familiarity. My khaki pants are part of that.July 13, 2009 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #650429
Cantoreaq, how is a passuk, stating that clothing affects the way you are perceived, a red herring? It’s EXACTLY the point. If you dress like a clown, you’re not taken seriously.July 13, 2009 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #650430
Khaki pants, a pressed shirt and a blazer is dressing like a clown?July 13, 2009 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #650431
Cantoresq, I was speaking in a literal sense. I should have made that clearer. Clowns dress like clowns because the red nose, makeup and rainbow hair sends a message “Laugh at me”. Half the work is done by the clothing. I used to chasunah shtick. just putting on the funny clothing makes people give you a big smile, without my having to do anything. The clothing sent a nonverbal message “Laugh”, and many did. Then when I actually attempted some humor, I had them rolling. So too, people expect someone giving a Torah lecture on Shabbos to be dressed in away that honors Shabbos, honors the Torah and honors the speaker. When you dress in a way that is less than that, you send a nonverbal message that you are dishonoring the communal standard for Shabbos and Torah. If that is the message you are sending, then people will automatically tune out what you are saying.July 13, 2009 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #650432
Actually Jothar, among those who attended were some who said they prefered my style of giving the shiur to others’.July 13, 2009 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #650433yossi z.Member
after reading most of these posts it seems that people are saying that “one should at least wear a ben torah uniform” (adapted quote) but what exactly defines a ben torah uniform? (i.e. what really is the minimum to be considered the uniform-i am a biber and rek’l type but that is not my minimum (it is: at least a respectable button down shirt dark slacks and depending if you are “modern orthodox” or not a hat and jacket)July 14, 2009 5:21 am at 5:21 am #650434bein_hasdorimParticipant
cantoresq: hold on the line….
when u wrote “I must confess it doesn’t carry the same weight..
were you referring to the quality of the shiur, or the way the
person is perceived?July 14, 2009 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #650435
Beinur question isirrelevant. How one is dressed has no effect on his competance to say a shiur, nor on the quality of his learning. Moreover, the shiur should stand on its own merits. Since attire has no effect on the quality of the shiur, how then can attire reasonably affect the way the shiur is percieved?July 14, 2009 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #650436
Since attire has no effect on the quality of the shiur
au contraire! (adarabah)
attire certainly has an effect on the quality of the shiur as it goes out, as Chazal say in so many places that the chitzonius affects the pnimius.
and kol shkain attire has a profound effect on the quality of the shiur as it goes in. it is pashut that the effect of a statement is highly dependent on how one views the source from which it emanates, even if the exact same words are said by two very differently perceived speakers.July 14, 2009 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #650437
Feivel, chitzonius may affect pnimius, but that’s irrlevant, since when says a shiur, it’s pnimius that becomes chitzonius :). The rest of your post speaks to bias and prejudice, something to which no intellectually honest person should ever pander.July 14, 2009 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #650438LAerMember
It seems that you created this thread simply to state your opinion and then argue with anyone who counters it. Was that your point? I’ve been following the thread and have found that many of the posts are logical but you only shoot them down, pick out pieces and (deliberately?) misinterpret them. What are you trying to accomplish?July 14, 2009 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #650439
“chitzonius may affect pnimius, but that’s irrlevant(sic)”
let me make it a little clearer to you
chitzonius affects pinimius, right?
when you perform a function, that being police duties, being interviewed for a job, speaking to a group, or giving a shiur, then how you perform that function (the pinimius which is expressed at that time) is partly influenced by the chitzonius.your pinimius primarily determines your behavior as well as your words
if you still dont understand well, ask someone.
“your post speaks to bias and prejudice”
i would hope so
since competing elements in a scenario are not equal, bias is a critical component of sound human reasoned analysis (unless you are a computer)
prejudice which means to prejudge is also a critical component of wisdom
if you do not already have some idea of what to expect in a situation composed at least partly of familiar components, then you are a fool
if you dont understand the psychologic nature of humans you will be a fool
if you dont listen to Chazal you will be a fool
if you havent taken the time to discover the deep and mystical roots of Judaism then you will act by rote and habit and be worse than a fool.
and if you wish to condemn me again, it would be only proper to do so in terms of Yiddishe ideas not the platitudes of western liberal goyish thought.July 14, 2009 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #650440
Cantoresq, I guess you believe that Chazal’s statement of chitzonius affecting the penimius, and the passuk stating aharon’s clothing should provide him honor and glory, are just additional examples of historical fraud perpetrated by that secret cabal of Illuminati neocon Pharisee rabbis who made up Megillas Esther to discredit the Hasmoneans…July 14, 2009 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #650441
i looked over my post
im not really particularly interested in pursuing this
but you have piqued my curiosity.
i would appreciate, for my own education, if you will point out the bias, prejudice, intellectual dishonesty, and pandering (not sure what that one means) in my previous post.July 14, 2009 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #650442SJSinNYCMember
I was sitting at a meeting today and thought of this discussion.
I am dressed in a black skirt, nice shirt and sandals.
Three men were dressed in long sleeve button down shirts and nice slacks. 1 was wearing a tie.
One man was dressed in a short sleeve button down shirt and nice slacks with a tie.
One man was dressed in a polo and khakis.
One man was dressed in jeans and a t-shirt.
The men dressed in the polo and khakis and the jeans and tshirt were the ones that were turned to most often for information/clarification and to resolve differences.
I think as a society we have placed so much emphasis on the exterior that we often forget the interior. IMHO, Cantoresq was still dressed in nice clothing (not stained, dirty etc) and the neighbor judged him by a standard that is ridiculous. Imagine if the same story was told with a guy wearing a black suit but a COLORED shirt. What would you think then?July 14, 2009 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #650443gavra_at_workParticipant
People follow their biases (real or not) when they act. We recognize this to aid the learning/business process. If one shows up in a T shirt & jeans to the court, they will not be taken seriously by the judge (any dress codes aside). Showing up to give a shiur as such may have the attendees believing, however much incorrectly, that the material is not “on the level” or the one giving the shiur is not qualified (similar to the judge, or the boss who has the prospective employee show up in shorts).
WE may claim we are not biased, and for you it may even be true, but those who are listening are.
(This is all just to illustrate the point, not to argue one side or the other)
Well put, but its not your standards, but the standards of those who are attending as well. If i wanted to give a shiur in KJ (just as an example), a suit, white shirt & tie would be still be underdressed.
Perhaps where cantoresq is it is normal for someone giving a shiur to wear clothing as such, so who are we to judge on that point?July 14, 2009 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #650444
it is quite clear from your very first post, and most of your replies that you are looking for VALIDATION, and nothing else. (other posters have also mentioned this obvious fact). thats fine. validation is always pleasant. so here is some validation for you: (warning no truth, answers, or differing ideas enclosed, you dont have to learn anything or change your ideas or grow spiritually, you are free to remain comfortable and lean back)
you are right!
the rest of the world has “sunk so low” (of course leaving you and people with similar values higher than the rest, congratulations.)
your dress does not matter
i believe that takes care of it
we can close this thread now
i personally am considering it closed as of now.
feivel – Done! YW Moderator-72
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