Signs in BP regarding Tznius (Skirts that fall 4" below the knee).

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  • #596810

    Ofcourse
    Member

    Signs are being posted on trees all over BP regarding Tznius (wearing only skirts that fall 4″ below the knee). Signs say something about going to Shul with shorter skirts is worse than not going at all.

    How effective are the signs? Will women wear longer skirts because of reading these signs, if they read them in the first place?

    Is there an issue about posting signs on peoples property? People are constantly pulling them off and theyre getting replaced every day with new ones, new staples, with leftover bits of paper accumulated, remaining.

    Do you approve or disapprove of signs being hung on trees?

    #767621

    Y.W. Editor
    Keymaster

    Happened to be passing through here … Just for the record it is against the law to hang signs on public property.

    See this link: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=82648

    #767622

    bpt
    Participant

    They do not belong on the trees. They belong on the shul bulletin board, and each shul should post a guideline that the Rov feels is appropriate for his own members.

    As to if the goer is better off staying home? Thats a call the parent / spouse should make… not some anon sign poster.

    4 inches? Hmm.

    #767623

    Presumably they have requested permission from the owners of the property to hang these signs.

    It might be more effective to have these guidelines (along with the reminders about shorter shaitels, looser clothing, less precarious heels, etc.) printed on mirrors, which should be hung in the hallways of shuls, schools, bathrooms, dressing rooms or wherever women would be likely to look at them. (Since we women often check our reflections in store windows, maybe caring proprietors would be willing to have these guidelines printed directly on their windows?)

    #767624

    Pac-Man
    Member

    ursula momish: Great point.

    #767625

    Ofcourse
    Member

    ursula, Presumably they have requested permission from the owners of the property to hang these signs.

    Not quite. A crisp new one gets hung in front of my house, and other houses on my block 😉 as soon the old one falls off.

    #767627

    ofcourse: Well, so much for being dan lekaf zechus. Obviously, the way to get them to stop is to hang a sign saying it’s assur to hang signs on other people’s property without permission!

    But to address the OP’s original questions: re the signs’ effectiveness: The signs will affect very few of the women at whom it is aimed. Some might stop and reconsider their outfit or even their wardrobe, but for most who dress in a style-conscious way, unless something is said to them directly–in a pleasant way they can be mekabel–or something happens that shows them it’s better to be tznius, it is unlikely that they will change.

    re the signs’ legitimacy: no, they don’t belong on trees. Or on lampposts, or construction site walls, or mailboxes, or bus shelters, unless the ad space has been paid for.

    #767628

    RedNails19
    Participant

    I agree with all of you that these should be hung on the shuls ect..NOT IN A PUBLIC AREA…do whatever you want in Monroe or New Square…its just inappropraie to be posting these signs in BP…or anywhere else for that matter!!

    #767629

    always here
    Participant

    whew! I’m glad I wear my skirt a good foot & a half below my knees!

    #767630

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    In a private domain (like a shul), I have no problem.

    In the street, I find it ridiculous. BP is not owned by Charedi Jews. I will adhere to my own tznius obligations, not someone elses.

    #767631

    amichai
    Participant

    sounds like meah shearim came to boro pk. for pple to take heed, words must be said bdarchei noam.

    #767632

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Even if only 10 people out 10,000 change after reading the sign, it is worth it. Even if only one person changed.

    (Obviously it should only be placed where it is legal.)

    #767634

    aries2756
    Participant

    No signs don’t work and are offensive. The only way to make changes is by example or by shiurim and by getting excitement going on doing the right thing such as the shmiras haloshon campaign. By doing things in a positive manner, you get much more accomplished. If someone starts a “tznius campaign” in BP like the Shmiras Haloshon campaign it might take hold, and even spread to other neighborhoods.

    #767635

    Ofcourse
    Member

    Im in the middle of BP and I see loads of them. Does anyone living outside of the middle of BP see them too?

    #767636

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “(Since we women often check our reflections in store windows, maybe caring proprietors would be willing to have these guidelines printed directly on their windows)”

    Seems to me that an effective place for these signs are the clothing stores.

    Let me guess, these signs are anonymous or are signed by the “vaad limishmeres hatznius”, which is about as anonymous as the vaad linikayon hamerchatz.

    #767637

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The fine for posting an illegal flyer in NYC is $300 PER flyer

    it is considered Vandalism by NYC Law

    #767638

    Shrek
    Member

    is this “4 inches below the knee” a chumrah?

    Back in the olden days, I remember learning that knees must be covered (also elbows, and collarbones). There was no talk of measurements, how many inches, etc.

    Anyone out there know what I’m talking about?

    #767639

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Shrek: It needs to be covered in all positions (sitting, getting up, into/out of car, etc.), so its gotta be longer than just-just.

    Btw, if the signs were encouraging shmiras haloshon instead of tznius, why would some of the people getting upset now then not be as upset as they are here?

    #767640

    HAKOL TOV
    Member

    There is no reason to take this so personally! If you feel you have to improve do so and if your tznius is good then those signs are not meant for you!

    #767641

    adorable
    Participant

    I remember seeing a sign in a clothing store in BP once when I was shopping and thought it was beautiful but never saw one on the street. But I dont live there so….

    #767642

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Pac-Man – “Even if only 10 people out 10,000 change after reading the sign, it is worth it.”

    What if after reading the offensive signs some women started to wear their skirts above the knee, was it worth it?

    #767643

    Pac-Man
    Member

    cherrybim – it is obviously addressed to those already wearing it above the knee before reading the sign.

    #767644

    adorable
    Participant

    I dont think ppl would do that? what are they proving and to who?

    #767645

    jewish source
    Participant

    It worked already, the fact that we are talking about it there is an awareness which is good Baruch Hashem.

    #767646

    commonsense
    Participant

    i was on 13th and 18th aves today and did not see these signs. i don’t know how effective they are but this problem is really getting worse. store windows have mannequins with skirts above the knee. I see women walking with skirts above the knee. what’s funny is today i saw at two different times, women who did not look the least bit stylish yet their skirts were above the knee (obviously frum women). I think the rabbonim need to talk to the store owners as much as the women shopping.

    #767647

    s2021
    Member

    I was in a store and a sign reminded me to check out the length of a skirt when sitting. I didnt mind.

    However, hearing strong words from, well, a sign doesnt strike up good feelings within me towards the idea of tznius.

    I dont think anything thats an issue should be tolerated,but woman who are wearing skirts over ther knees usually have something against the whole idea of conforming…

    There needs to be deeper understanding and appreciation for tznius-from a young age-as opposed to it being harshly forced upon..

    #767648

    Poster
    Member

    If you find the signs offensive or hurtful it shows that you have a guilty conscience towards this subject. That is good. When I pass a sign that doesn’t relate to me, I dont care what it says.

    AS a girl in High School I was very meticulous to wear my skirts 4 inches below my knee. I would measure with a measuring tape each time I got a new skirt. When I sat there was no way my knees showed. Since I got married, I am a bit more lax. When I get into a car sometimes my skirt will left up etc. YES, when I passed that sign on 13th and 50th street, it hurt. The sign spoke to me. I felt guilty. It was a reminder.

    #767650

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m glad I wear pants.

    #767651

    girlsarb
    Member

    i can totally sympathise with that. I wear knee length and try to be very careful generally, but when it comes to getting out of a car, the skirt always hikes up. But i dont think 4 inches is the answer

    #767652

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Btw, if the signs were encouraging shmiras haloshon instead of tznius, why would some of the people getting upset now then not be as upset as they are here?”

    I personally don’t like anything that tells people what to do, how to act,what to say, where to go, what to do, when to do it or in general gives mussar to others, that is anonymous.

    #767653

    Pac-Man
    Member

    “I personally don’t like anything that tells people what to do, how to act,what to say, where to go, what to do, when to do it or in general gives mussar to others, that is anonymous.”

    So you are against the Chofetz Chaim Shmiras Haloshon reminders we often see?

    #767654

    Homeowner
    Member

    Keep your signs off my house.

    #767655

    Pac-Man
    Member

    “i can totally sympathise with that. I wear knee length and try to be very careful generally, but when it comes to getting out of a car, the skirt always hikes up. But i dont think 4 inches is the answer”

    What answer other than longer skirts do you contemplate for the problem of the skirt hiking up??

    #767656

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Poster: That is a ridiculous statement. I find signs hanging in BP telling the masses that shaving is usser to be offensive! Am I doing something wrong? NO! But for people to “push” their beliefs or chumras on others is no better than the Taliban!

    #767657

    Ofcourse
    Member

    poster, YES, when I passed that sign on 13th and 50th street, it hurt. The sign spoke to me. I felt guilty. It was a reminder.

    Is the 4″ Halacha MiSinai? I think not. Do all Litvish Rabbonim believe women have to wear skirts that long? Or is it only preferable- Hidur Mitzvah? If it’s Hidur Mitzvah- there are many who dont believe in Human Hair Wigs, and there are many who believe that wigs should be covered….Ain L’Dovor Sof.

    #767658

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    no better than the Taliban!

    Can we have a Taliban version of Godwin’s Law?

    The Wolf

    #767659

    Poster
    Member

    If I would pass a sign talking about men shaving or not, I would not care, it doesnt apply to me. If you care it means its touching you somewhere deep inside. Don’t try to brush it off.

    If you think 4 inches is ridiculous, you shouldnt care.

    #767660

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If I would pass a sign talking about men shaving or not, I would not care, it doesnt apply to me. If you care it means its touching you somewhere deep inside. Don’t try to brush it off.

    If you think 4 inches is ridiculous, you shouldnt care.

    BS”D

    I completely agree. The OP had a good point regarding posting signs on private property (Gezaila, just like any other use of someone elses property without permission, such as hanging your stuff on his tree, or storing your bike in his shed without permission). The “four inches” is so ridiculous that it means nothing to me.

    That other Jews say these things (and mean it), well, I just don’t have the same religion as they do (shrug). Judaism depends on who your mother was, not by claiming that you are practicing, or creating halacha. If it was, the Karaim and the Reform would both be frum. To me, it is no different than saying one must take an apple together with the Arba Minim.

    Of course, if you would ask the learned people, they would tell you it is a geder, a siyag, or a general idea. It is the Hamon Am that are Amei Ha’aretz (just like it was in Europe), and make the broad statements.

    Unless you actually might think the “four inches” could be correct, why does it bother you any more than someone who tells you your Esrog should be a plum?

    #767661

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

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    Avos D’Rav Nossan 5:2.

    This applies to the graduation thread as well.

    #767662

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    WolfishMusings: We can call the law Wolfish’s Law.

    #767663

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Poster: You are missing the point. I don’t care if you have a mishgas about 4′ skirts or shaving or the likes. I have a problem with self righteous jews dictating their veiw points and hashgafa on others. We already saw this in Israel and Kirya Yoel. First you have the signs and then you have the “kanoim”, zealots, who take matter into their own hands. All of this is L’Shaim shmayim, their g-d, not others.

    #767664

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Whether its 4 inches, 6 inches, or 3 inches, it has to be longer than just-just covering, in order that it be covered in all positions (like getting into/out of a car as someone mentioned.) So how else should that point be conveyed? 4 inches is often itself insufficient to keep it covered when getting into/out of a car, for most women and girls.

    #767666

    zaidy78
    Participant

    Where does the 4″ rule come from? I think its a chidush of R’ Falks.

    From looking at pictures of 30-50 years ago, the skirts were alot shorter on the Rebbitzens than they are today. Take a look at your parents or grandparents wedding pictures. The skirts are not exactly what we would consider Bais Yaakov length of todays generation. When we were growing up, knee leangth was for the frummies, but the 4″ rule signed by some anonymous vaad means zilch!

    #767667

    Pac-Man
    Member

    The point is that the knee should be covered at all times, including getting into or out of a car. Some people may get away with 3″ and some may need even more than 4″.

    #767668

    Ofcourse
    Member

    Can someone explain why the 4″ rule gained importance in the last 10 years.

    It was never mentioned in Bais Yaakov High School, for the first 40+ years of Bais Yaakov’s existence. Women got into and out of cars then too.

    Have there been some new findings in Torah teachings since?

    #767669

    cherrybim
    Participant

    As a chizuk l’rabim, those responsible for the illegal sign postings should include an actual size ruler on the sign for immediate skirt/knee measuring, chas v’sholam no one should be oiver for a moment. And mitzvah goreres mitzvah: the illegal sign is off.

    #767670

    adorable
    Participant

    poster- you gave me chizuk! thank you so much for being so honest about not being so careful anymore…I have the same issue

    #767671

    aries2756
    Participant

    I think one of the posters said the right thing. Rabbonim in the neighborhood should enter the dress shops and speak to the “FRUM” owners directly. They should have a real conversation and they should let them know that as frum owners they are misguiding the kehilah by bringing in and selling them clothin items that are less than tznius and promoting goyish attitudes. There is nothing wrong with being stylish, but by doing so while in addition being untznius they are sending a message to the general public as well as to our youth that you can’t be stylish and tznius at the same time.

    The Rabbonim should be very clear, obviously they cannot control what the department stores sell. But they can advise their Kehila members which stores to shop in and which stores they should absolutely not shop in. Store owners can absolutely ask their suppliers to get them the same styles with longer skirts, longer sleeves, etc. If they don’t ask, they won’t receive. If everyone has the same requests, their requests will be honored.

    #767672

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Pac Man. Post a sample sign and I will answer yes or no.

    #767673

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Whether its 4 inches, 6 inches, or 3 inches, it has to be longer than just-just covering, in order that it be covered in all positions”

    Not so simple. If it is TOO long the tznius police are on your case as well.

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