December 30, 2009 12:28 am at 12:28 am #591020Shidduch SolutionMember
Being the owner of Shidduch World, I find that many times when I call parents of a single older than the age of 25, they are not fair and honest in what their daughter is looking for. I have had many times that the parents wouldn’t let their daughters or son’s date, yet when I spoke to the boy/girl directly they agreed to date.
I would think that at this age a single should be able to speak up for themself, as well as make their own decisions in what to look into, and in what to compromise on.
I would appreciate your ideas on this. Am I correct in thinking as such?
732 534-4539December 30, 2009 3:18 am at 3:18 am #671672Yanky55Participant
If a single over 25 needs his/her parents to decide whether or not to date or who they should date, then that single is obviously not mature enough to date!
Your thinking is 100% correct!December 30, 2009 4:42 am at 4:42 am #671673
Moshe, you are absolutely correct, in my humble opinion. Anyone over 25 who needs mommy or daddy to make their decisions for them, is not ready to get married. I have been saying that for years. I don’t even like when people call to speak to me about my daughters, I always hand the phone to the girls and let them speak for themselves. In fact, it is crucial for the caller to have a conversation with the girl or boy, so they can personally assess if that young person is able to carry on a conversation with someone. JMO.December 30, 2009 6:20 am at 6:20 am #671674bein_hasdorimParticipant
Ain Hochi Nami! I’m surprised and shocked that an individual aged 25 or older would still let their parents do the work that they themselves are suppose to be doing
to find their match. Besides the point that parents try to live vicariously through
thier children and are many times the very reason that their children aren’t
able to find their basherteh, as theses parents meddle into personal physical
traits of the girl or boy or family, which is not up to them to decide,
thus weeding out possible matches which the parents dont like,
but the boy or girl would like.
This problem happens primarily under the circumstances that the OP points out.
So, in an extended version of your original post, I totally agree.
(Perhaps you should consider bumping up the age to 23 to promote some maturity.)December 30, 2009 8:41 am at 8:41 am #671675
I would actually take it a step further and say that parents should have nothing to do with a shidduch during the dating process. Unless of course they are being asked to financially support the couple. I don’t have anything against parents and I value my parents advice but I don’t think they can be objective. However, I don’t think there’s a specific age that singles need to start dealing with shaddchanim directly, it should be whenever they are ready. Using myself as an example, I am 25 but I have not been dating for long and I don’t have a lot of experience, so I am a little unsure of what I’m doing when I deal directly with a shaddchan. That said I realize that I need to take things into my own hands if I want to get married so I do it anyway. My point is that it’s not age that’s important it’s experience and state of mind, if you’re not ready you’re not ready.December 30, 2009 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #671676tzippiMember
I would say, like HIPPA, let the kids decide who they want to allow to talk with the shadchan, even informally. I think that my kids, if older, would still value my opinion.December 30, 2009 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #671677devils_advocateMember
mommy and totty hopefully have a broader picture of life. and yes their opinion is very valuable when dating and they should be consulted.
EDITEDDecember 30, 2009 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #671678jewish and working 22Member
I think 25+ year old singles should not deal with shadchanim at all. At that age they should be mature enough to approach a girl/boy on their own without having to go through a third party.December 30, 2009 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #671679arcParticipant
Parents should be involved in the process. Parents should be trusted that they have their childrens best interest in mind. A 25 year old bochur in Lakewood has no reason to have the shiduchim redd directly to him. Redd it to the parents and let them look into it, after that if the shadchan wants to talk with said bochur thats fine.December 30, 2009 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #671680heimesheyidMember
devils_advocate, I will be one of the few that will agree with you. Only because I know firsthand how when I was in shidduchim I was blinded by certain things that only a parent can protect you from. And no I was not 18. But there are certain things in life that come only with experience no matter how mature u r.December 30, 2009 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #671681
Nnnnnnnnooooo. I’ve seen way too many singles who made decisions totally on their own, and ended up admitting that they should have listened to their parents about the Shidduch (love/infatuation is blind and age has nothing to do with that). They say you know a Shidduch is Bashert if the parents of boy and boy like the girl, and the parents of the girl and the girl like the boy.
In the case where the parents and the single are on a totally different page, that’s different.
While I’ve heard of Shidduchim working where all were not in agreement about the Shidduch, it usually causes problems down the line.December 30, 2009 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #671682americaisoverParticipant
Moshe you are 100% correct.December 30, 2009 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #671683
‘While I’ve heard of Shidduchim working where all were not in agreement about the Shidduch, it usually causes problems down the line.”
Sure, it’s great for the parents to give advice and of course you want to approve of the person that you are thinking of marrying but that’s not the same thing as saying the parents should find that person for you.December 30, 2009 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #671684justin2Member
If a single is old/mature enough to get married, no matter what age, said single should not need his/her parents to decide whom he/she should go out with. Therefore, I agree, shadchunim should go straight to the single with any ideas.
If a single needs help “researching” his/her parents can help with that part. And of course, parents can be consulted with in between/after dates for some guidance b/c “love blinds.”December 30, 2009 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #671685
You’d be surprised at what an aggressive Shadchan can convince a single to do (date), if parents aren’t in the loop. Sometimes singles are very desperate and willing to date just about anyone of the opposite gender and once the dating starts, it has a life of its own, and you cant stop it, or the reverse, not willing to date anyone…I think parents’ input is beneficial from the get-go. Twenties isn’t real adulthood yet.December 30, 2009 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #671687WolfishMusingsParticipant
There’s a big difference between taking a parent’s advice and giving them veto power over whether or not Boy X can date Girl Y. The OP is talking about the latter — the shadchan deals directly with the parents and if they don’t approve, the date never happens.
I think that when a single is over 25*, the parents shouldn’t have veto power over whether or not they can date and whom they can date. As others have pointed out, if they aren’t mature enough to make that simple decision for themselves, then they aren’t ready for marriage (and I wonder if they ever will be).
Nonetheless, there is certainly value in consulting one’s parents for their advice and input along the way. I’m over forty and a parent myself, and I still consult my parents for advice on life issues — I highly value their advice and respect their life experience — but they don’t have veto power over my life decisions. I think the same approach should be approached by singles as well: consult with your parents, talk with them, solicit (and value) their advice and their input — but at the end of the day, the decision on whether or not to continue with the dating process and to proceed to marriage is yours and yours alone. Parents *should not* have veto power over that sort of decision.
No one is saying (absent extreme circumstances) that parents should be completely out of the loop — but they shouldn’t have the power over older singles that the OP claims they have.
* Personally, I think even 25 is too high for this — but that’s another argument for another day.December 30, 2009 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #671688
“I would say, like HIPPA, let the kids decide who they want to allow to talk with the shadchan, even informally. I think that my kids, if older, would still value my opinion. “
There are kids who are so inexperienced, or frightened, or NOT ready to date, that they will give over their entire shidduch process to their parents and the shadchan. Yes, there are kids who need their parents’ VALUABLE input, but most kids who are already 25 or more, should be grown up about dating, and even if they go through a shadchan, should speak to the shadchan directly, and then follow through on the dating themselves, without the shadchan making the dates for them and without mommy and daddy making their decisions for them. While it is true parents have more experience, it does not mean their agenda is always what is right for their child. Parent should be involved, but unles THEY are going out on the date, the boy or girl should take achrayus for themselves. And I agree that even 25 is a bit too old for this.December 30, 2009 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #671689baltashchisParticipant
I personally think that at this age girls or boys should have a Rav/Mentor to whom they would be comfortable speaking with. Sometimes a girl/boy needs to talk things over, and an outsider could hear them out over a parent. Not every single is comfortable speaking with a parent, yet speaking with their friends can also be harmful. Whatever they choose it has to be someone who has a clear and open mind. This is why I would reccomend that they choose the Rav/Mentor as mentioned before.December 30, 2009 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #671690
My son, who DOES value our opinions, always speaks with his rebbie an extremely well-respected and admired man, to talk things over with him (while at the same time discussing those things with us, as well). He has often been surprised to discover how much his rebbie and we think alike. Go figure…December 30, 2009 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #671691charliehallParticipant
You make a great point about having a rav. A rav is not just someone you ask shilah’s about kashrut! When I was dating I consulted frequently with my rav. My wife and I met on frumster.com with no shadchan, but between the time we connected and the time we met in person we each talked with the others’ rabbis. I would think that a frum person who doesn’t have a decent relationship with at least one rabbi would not be all that frum.December 30, 2009 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #671692bptParticipant
I’m almost on the same page as Jewish and Working 22. The only role I see a shadchan having for a 25+ year old is to pass on the contact and then field the 1st phone call from either side if its to be called a pass. But if it goes to a 2nd date, the shadchan should back out, inless specificaly asked to intervene.
At 25, they shoud be able to fend for themselves. Problem is, today’s average 25 y/o boy has the people skills of a teen, so he’s cooked on his ownDecember 31, 2009 12:20 am at 12:20 am #671693
BP Totty, and how do the singles find out if the other is interested if the Shadchan has been asked to back out?
The guy calls after the second date, if he’s interested, and doesnt call if he’s not? And the poor girl has to wait and wonder for days?December 31, 2009 12:22 am at 12:22 am #671694Shidduch SolutionMember
Thank you all for posting on this Blog.
Firstly like all rules there are exceptions to the rule like to all rules.
I deal with many Shidduchim daily and have come across many Parents that won’t let me talk to their daughters about a Shiddcuh idea even though their daughters were/are 30 years or older.
Recently I spoke to a parent of a 29 year old single. She was looking for a Yeshiveshe Brisk Lakewood type of boy, must be afull time and long term learner, no divorced boy and so on. Mind you, She and her family wear Chasideshe Levush with a Shtraimel. I explained to him that there are no such guys around and asked to speak to his daughter to explain to her directly that she is looking for the almost impossible. He refused to put her on the phone.
There are many such stories.
It’s in a way a family crises when you have parents that won’t let their children date because of their own Kovod, or not wanting to do a Shidduch with the other family, or for some other ridiculous reason.
To all parents out there who are guilty. STOP CAUSING YOUR CHILDREN’S SHIDDUCH CRISSES
732 534-4539December 31, 2009 2:17 am at 2:17 am #671695cholentkugelkishkeMember
Shidduch Solution – I think that you are making an excellent point. At a certain point – the single needs to be involved in their own shidduchim. It’s a difficult & painfull Parsha & needs great sensitivety, but you are 1000% right.December 31, 2009 4:24 am at 4:24 am #671696
“BP Totty, and how do the singles find out if the other is interested if the Shadchan has been asked to back out? “
Here’s a thought – and maybe it’s a bit radical for this blog – the boy calls her again within a couple of days to tell her what a great time he had and to either ask her out again then and there or ask her when it would be convenient to call to arrange for another date. If she feels likewise that she wants to see him, she agrees that she, too, had fun and eagerly says yes to the second date. If not, she tells him thank you very much for the pleasant evening they had, but she will be very busy and unavailable to go out (or whatever words she wants to use). They will have many awkward experiences to deal with in life, so this is good training for those occasions. Not every date goes well, and not every person will want to go out with the other person a second time. It is part of life. We don’t get hired for every job we want, either.
A parent of a 30 year old never married girl, who is still fielding the daughter’s shidduchim calls and turning away prospective matches without at least consulting with the daughter, clearly does NOT want that daughter to get married, no matter what the parent asserts to the contrary. For some reason, they like keeping her very emotionally dependent on them. Not very healthy for parent OR child.December 31, 2009 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #671698
jewishandworking22: I don’t have any problem with you approaching girls on your own, whatever works for you. The reason people deal with a Shaddchan has nothing to do with not being mature, in more yeshivish circles approaching a girl directly is typically not done and if you’re looking for that type of girl you’re not going to find her by walking up to her on the street. The fact is that this system works for a lot of people so there’s no reason to completely change it.
oomis1105: How many girls do you think would be comfortable explaining to a boy why they don’t want to go out again after just one or two dates? I’m guessing not that many, at least until they’ve been dating for a few years.December 31, 2009 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #671699haifagirlParticipant
I know somone who just “knew” on the second date that if he went through the shadchan the girl would say no to a third date. He also had a strong feeling she would be too embarrassed to say no if he asked her directly. So before the second date ended he asked her for a third date.
She was too embarrassed to say no, so they had that third date. Not only did they get married, but they are still married long enough that they are grandparents.
And later on he found out he was right about something else – she would have said no to a third date if he had gone through the shadchan.December 31, 2009 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #671700mybatMember
When I went out with guys, they would usually call me directly and if I didn’t want to go out I would have to find a way of getting out from going out. Now while it was very awkward it was usually easier than when a 3rd party was involved because somehow it would cause even more misunderstandings, and this way no one was able to force me to continue or to stop going out because the final decision was always mine.December 31, 2009 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #671701
YDKM – When I was in my dating years some 30 + years ago, girls had do that ALL the time. Do you honestly think we had a shadchan tell a boy we were not interested? Nobody relied on the person who set it up (if it was a set up) to do their dirty work (and that’s why it is uncomfortable – we always want someone else to do our dirty work for us). It may be uncomfortable to have to take a phone call and say, this is not going to work out (couched in a nicer way, of course), but it is part of being a mature adult. There will be MANY MANY times in life where tact and awkwardness will be intertwined, and where that young ADULT will need to face something unpleasant that has to be done (firing someone from a job, apologizing to someone whom he has hurt, owning up to a mistake he made that caused a problem for someone else), wanting to return an expensively bought item to a store), and not going out for a second date is really minor compared to those mentioned. It is good practice for the future.
If someone absolutely, positively feels incapable of having an actual phone conversation, then at the very least in response to a phone message, write a nice text message thanking him for meeting with you, but after thinking about it, that you don’t feel the relationship will move forward. Wish him well, and reiterate that it was nice meeting him. He has to be a grownup, too. Not everyone will like everyone. If they did, it would be chaos. Going through a shadchan is perhaps less of a responsibility, but it shows a lack of maturity to follow through, even when the event calls for discomfort.
If a generation ago, we were capable of taking care of our own business, why do you suppose this next generation is less capable than we?December 31, 2009 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #671702
I wanted to add something to my post – the ONLY reason that people are now allowing shadhchanim to be the third party to say yes or no to another date (or even the very FIRST date being arranged by them), is that we have allowed the system to evolve in this direction in recent years. As I said in another post, thirty years ago people arranged their own dating schedules, even if shadchanim arranged for a couple to meet. After giving the boy the girl’s number, the shadchan backed out (except to be told yes or no to a future date),but the boy still either called or didn’t call the girl, and she accepted or declined.
Some of us have allowed ourselves to be convinced that the method of the shadchan doing all the legwork, is somehow more religiously and socially proper than encouraging our young people to be the adults that they are supposed to be (if they are ready to be getting married, that is). If something works for you, fine, it does not hurt me for you to do things your way. But, the danger lies in starting to believe that this is the RIGHT and only way to do things.
My kids and their friends are (with a few exceptions)not Yeshivish, they are more MO very machmir. Even THEIR chevra have been convinced into thinking that if someone is setting them up, they should not even listen to someone else who also has a shidduch in mind. Mind you, they haven’t even been asked out by the first person yet. It is not even where the boy might even yet know about the girl. But in their circle of friends, it is not “done” any other way. They COMPLETELY finish with one shidduch (from the concept of the point of someone making an initial suggestion about someone, to the actual decision to decline a second date), before they even want to hear about someone else. I think that is foolish, because it wastes time that might be spent actually meeting someone else who might be more readily available and more quickly actually meet the person to whom they are suggsted. My opinion (and it will never change), the early bird gets…. and our kids should listen to all suggestions for shidduchim, and not wait around for someone to give the go ahead at their end, before agreeing to a date with someone else in the interim.
I know a young man who agreed to a shidduch, only to find out the girl was being redt to someone (whose mother had not yet told the shadchan to go forward). Weeks went by and the girl had not yet heard from the other guy. The boy I know, was told about another girl meanwhile, and went out with her. The first girl finally heard from the shadchan, and the other boys’ mom had said no. This young lady therefore wasted several weeks of her life waiting for someone who ultimately did not even meet her, AND lost out on meeting a really good boy who was eager to meet her. Though he did not end up marrying the girl he had met at that time, he met someone else right after and DID marry her. So while one could correctly argue it was not bashert for this girl and boy to meet, who knows what might have been, or how many other boys she lost out on because she would not even consider another shidduch while waiting for the other one to come through? I have always believed in first-come, first served. Our kids cannot afford to make the shidduch process even more difficult than it already is.December 31, 2009 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #671703bptParticipant
Sorry, Azoi iz – I was not clear:
What I meant to say is the intro gets done by a shadchan (a co-worker, a neigbor or a pro) the next day, party A and party B both get back to the shadchan with thier version of how things went. If both are a go for a 2nd date, at that point, if either one feels things are not heading in the right direction, they should be mature enough to say so directly to the other person. Often, it may just be a case of a misunderstood comment, and at this age and stage of the dating process, both should be capable of relaying what’s on thier mind without the need of a negotiator.
Its a skill they’ll both need in life, and if they don’t have it at 25, when will they?December 31, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #671704mom12Participant
The bottom line is.Each situation has to be dealt with appropriately.
I am on both ends 1-I am a shadchan and redd shiduchim..2) I am on the listening end as well.
I do sometimes speak with the actual boy or girl themselves all ages- older or previously married is definitely more common.
sometimes I do feel the parents are being too picky and not even on the same page as their children-this is where it is necesary to speak to the ‘client’ themselves.
At the same time my daughter doesnt want to handle any of this on her own..it just confuses her.and some shadchanim are so overbearing…
And yes, I had to deal with my own ‘dirty work’
Its a new world….December 31, 2009 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #671705jewish and working 22Member
BP Totty amd Oomis 1105:
At the age of 25, as the others said, one should be mature enough to go through awkward situations. I am younger than 25 and I have gone through these moments. Some times the girl comes out and says no and some time the girl just does not return my phone calls.
It is kind of sad that my generation is incapable of doing stuff on their own from start to finish, no matter how awkward it may seem. (Or in the case of this thread, even being able to make a decision that will hopefully affect that person for the rest of their life.)
However, a person should do whatever works for them, even if it seems like a crutch to others.December 31, 2009 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #671706jphoneMember
Moshe. when calling, just leave a message for the single to call you back. If a female, have your wife/sister/daughter (any female) leave a message to be called back.
Just say “it is related to a shidduch”. you’ll get called back.December 31, 2009 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #671707
“At the same time my daughter doesnt want to handle any of this on her own..it just confuses her.and some shadchanim are so overbearing…
And yes, I had to deal with my own ‘dirty work’
Its a new world…. “
You and your daughter should always do what works well for you (and may she find her right zivug soon, B”EH). Not referring to your daughter, but if a girl cannot handle any of this on her own and gets confused by the process, then how will she ever be able to make decisions about how to raise her children, what advice to listen to from her parents, friends, in-laws, etc.? There will always be overbearing people in her life, so overbearing shadchanim are good experience for her to learn to assert herself.
You’re right – it IS a new world which is harkening back to the OLD world, a world which is the result of people who seem to have stopped taking responsibility for thinking, for doing, and for the consequences of their actions. Whether it is in religious observance or social interaction (and there is much overlap), ultimately we have to be responsible human beings who do not give our lives over to someone else to live them for us. If a girl wanted to apply for a job or ask for a raise at work, would she ask her Mommy to do it for her?January 1, 2010 9:45 am at 9:45 am #671708
jewishandworking22: Just b/c the guy is 25 that doesn’t mean he’s dating 25 year old girls. Personally I would love to be able to talk to the girls I date honestly without a third party to confuse things. I was just saying that I think it’s the girls (at least until they’ve been dating for a while) that would have a problem with communicating directly. This is probably the one thing that has bothered me the most in dating b/c I’ve had a girl say no through a third party without giving me a real reason or even discussing it with me, this was after we had stopped using a third party to set up the dates and that was not an easy thing to deal with to say the least.January 1, 2010 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #671709tzippiMember
Oomis, you’re right, and yet, in an ideal world, with good communication and parents who are focused on the kids’ best interests, parental involvement is a fine thing. Their opinion should always be valued, even if not carrying majority weight.
And it’s a lot easier to walk away from a job that’s a bad fit.January 1, 2010 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #671710
I agree fully that parental opinion should be valued – when the parent’s opinion does not carry a hidden agenda of the parent’s own vicarious wishes versus what the adult child wants and needs. Involvement is the not the same as interference. How many mothers of boys have refused a shidduch without even mentioning it to their sons, for the most STUPID of reasons (dress size was a 6, the girl’s mother didn’t have a choshuv profession outside the home, and the best one, the very intelligent one that someone said to me after grilling me for half an hour about a lovely girl – “but I hear she’s short, and I don’t want short grandchildren” — honestly if that’s a problem, why waste my time talking about her)?
And nowadays, it is not really so easy to walk away from a bad job, which is way better than having NO job. I would not normally feel that a bad marriage is better than no marriage, though. Nothing in our present world is ideal, and we have to remember that when our kids are in the parsha. Nobody said it would be easy…January 6, 2010 6:01 am at 6:01 am #671711potsandpansMember
This question is for Owner of Shidduch World,
while this question has nothing to do with the original comment posted, Im just inquiring about shidduch world:
Im tryingto find a shidduch for a working chassidishe guy, but i noticed that there are no resumes on ur site of chassidish older girls…is that because you don’t cater to that crowd, or you are not familiar with that crowd?January 6, 2010 7:29 am at 7:29 am #671712mom12Participant
oomis1105- U r 100% right and I am working on it..my children think I am mean and not helpful but I know this is best for them..
potsandpans as I am not familiar with ‘shiduch world’ as to who he caters to..I can tell u from my experience as a shadchan, this is a very very difficult group!
just yesterday I was told about 3 girls who would take chassidish and working..(its a shame they cant marry 3 at a time) these come few and far between -zei matzliachJanuary 7, 2010 7:52 am at 7:52 am #671714bombmaniacParticipant
“You’re only young once, but you can be immature forever.” – Germaine Greer
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