Sleeping in the sukkah

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  • #2009874
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    GH – I hear you and it’s a fair question but I don’t think it happens that way. People here will discuss a halacha or question the omittence of a halacha as they would anything else. Then someone comes along and starts calling them haters and anti chabad and invokes names and curses.

    If people want to speak about a halacha being omitted (such as kashrus , chillul shabbos or tznius) nobody will call them haters. Those who interpret halacha differently can try to explain how their rabbeim paskened that way but the discussion isn’t an attack. Somehow if it’s a chabad related issue it becomes an “attack of the worst kind.”

    I have heard you say you have a more modern outlook. I have experienced that (personally) to include a live and let live attitude to enhance peacefulness. Over time I have learned that even with an emotional draw toward that idea, it tends to prevent and discourage aggressively defending Torah when it is being challenged. Not condoning all methods by any means, but allowing laxity in the name of kumbayaness isn’t working in our favor.

    Just my two cents

    #2009939
    Yechi Hamelech
    Participant

    Syag,
    I would not consider myself “newish” over here, although I may not be as OG as you, I’ve definitely been around here long enough to see the amount of anti-Chabad propaganda spewed forth on Coffeeroom by many individuals such as Yeshivishrockstar, Icemelter, and Warrior (and apparently now we have a new one) to name a few who have gotten away with it without any affront to their credibility whatsoever.

    Now, of course I would generally shy away from direct insults and aggressive arguing, especially only a few days after Rosh Hashana and YK, but when the subject of the debate is such that has done so himself, and on a much worse level, to organizations and individuals, then I can assume that he’s not the type to get offended when someone else does the same thing to him. If I’ve indeed insulted anyone, then I wholeheartedly apologize.
    On my part, after having seen the amount of hate over here, generally motivated by ignorance, I find it hard not to respond myself. If I only allow these factually incorrect statements to remain permanently on cyberspace without any head-on rebuttal, than this could cause a lot of damage in the long run for any subsequent visitors to the site.

    #2009943
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Now, of course I would generally shy away from direct insults and aggressive arguing, ”

    You haven’t convinced me of that.

    I find it funny that you keep spewing insults at them for defending Torah and then excuse yourself for having the exact reason they have. As I noted above. Odd, huh?

    #2010001
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    fyi
    some of the chabad rabaim did sleep in the sukkah

    #2010022
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Melbourne – I’m sure many did; until the last lubavitcher rebbe, no one said that the mitzvah doesn’t apply at all or that only huge tzadikim who can handle the ohr makif bina are obligated to sleep in a sukkah.

    This reminds me of an amazing piece in the ohr somayach in hilchos talmud Torah; he says that every mitzvah has a bare minimum that every single jew, regardless of emotional strength (he was very aware of mental health issues, like i said, this piece is amazing) can perform, no matter what circumstances he might be in. In talmud torah, every Jew can say shema in the morning and night, and that is the basic requirement – of course whatever more one can do, he must, and he must always try to strengthen himself to reach new abilities and capacities in learning. Still, I’ve shown this piece to my talmidim over several years and it always hits home – Hashem gave the Torah to every yochid, and knows our struggles and chisronos…he also knows our abilities and gave us a Torah that we all can fulfill.

    #2010081
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    avirah darah
    like was said earler, this was already from the mittler rebbe
    you missed my point completely

    #2010096
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Melbourne; i thought that when you said that some chabad rabbonim slept in a sukkah, that you meant that it was not abandoned fully like it is now, but was subject to the same rules that everyone else followed, namely that if you were cold you didn’t do it.

    How does saying that some chabad rabonim slept in a sukkah connect to the kabalistic reasoning attributed to the miteler rebbe? Also, for the record, no one has produced evidence that the miteler or anyone else at all employed kabalistic reasons to override halachik obligations, nor has anyone provided evidence of a community or even a daas yochid who abstained from sleeping in a sukkah outside of ashkenazim in europe who lived in cold climates. To add to my original case, I don’t think there is a minhag among sefardim to not sleep in a sukkah either, as they did not live in cold places. I will bl”n look into that, as I have a friend who is a baki in sefardi minhagim… I’ll also give a look into the kaf hachaim, which would probably mention it if it were a minhag

    #2010243
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    avirahdarah:
    sorry i got very defensive
    i was brought up with that we dont sleep in the sukkah because its so holy and therefore causes pain
    is that a problem according to u?

    #2010254
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    鈥庘庘巐etter from igros to someone asking why chabad dosnt sleep in or decorate the sukkah (from chabad.org)
    In order to safeguard and inspire a greater feeling of sanctity towards the Succah, sleeping in it is not practiced by us. The basis for this is twofold: FIRST, we have a rule that 讛诪爪讟注专 驻讟讜专 诪谉 讛住讜讻讛 (suffering exempts one from dwelling in the Succah). Secondly, during sleep, a person is not in control of himself, and, furthermore, the very act of dressing and undressing, etc. inevitably creates a commonplace attitude toward the place which serves as a bedroom. Such a depreciation of attitude toward the Succah (by sleeping in it; as explained above) from what his attitude should properly be towards the Mitzvah of G鈥慸 whereby he has sanctified all Jews, would be deeply felt by the Chabad Chassidim by virtue of his Chassidic teachings and upbringings, and would cause him profound spiritual suffering. The combination of these two considerations, therefore, led to the custom not to sleep in the Succah.

    However, if a Jew feels absolutely certain that his sleeping in the Succah would not in the slightest affect his attitude toward the sanctity of the Succah, and is consequently free from any mental pain that might be caused thereby, he is duty-bound to sleep in it, in accordance with the fullest meaning of 转砖讘讜 讻注讬谉 转讚讜专讜, to make his Succah a dwelling place to the utmost. I hope the above will provide an adequate answer to your question, but should you desire further clarification, do not hesitate to write me.

    #2010261
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Melbourne; I don’t mean to knock what you were raised with – i can only relate normative halacha as we have learned it from rishonim and achronim, and as there is a mitzvah deoraysoh to sleep in a sukkah, that mitzvah was given with full knowledge of the spiritual characteristics of a sukkah, so if someone felt the kedushah of the sukkah, it would not fall under the category of things like cold, rain, etc, which are simple identifiable discomfort ,”mitztayer”. However what the last rebbe said was even further, not that you’re patur because you feel the holiness, but rather that you’re pained that you’re not pained and that you don’t feel the kedushah, which is itself an exemption. We don’t find such far removed, indirect concepts in relation to halachos of any other mitzvah. I can’t tell you that it’s ok not to sleep in a sukkah for the above reasons, but i can say that throughout the generations, the majority of ashkenazi Jews have not and do not sleep in a sukkah outside of eretz yisroel. The reasons for this range from not being able to sleep in a sukkah with one’s wife, to being cold, and so on – all physical discomfort.

    #2010302
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    avairhdarah
    “that mitzvah was given with full knowledge of the spiritual characteristics of a sukkah”
    they were on a much greater spiritiual level soo then as the letter says
    “However, if a Jew feels absolutely certain that his sleeping in the Succah would not in the slightest affect his attitude toward the sanctity of the Succah, and is consequently free from any mental pain that might be caused thereby, he is duty-bound to sleep in it, in accordance with the fullest meaning of 转砖讘讜 讻注讬谉 转讚讜专讜, to make his Succah a dwelling place to the utmost.”

    #2010301
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    talking about discomfirt, its not what you define it as.
    sukkah has to be teishvuh keein toduru so it can be pain that maybe only some have. would you sleep in the same room as a sefer torah?
    no. so you wouldnt sleep iun the sukkah like that because it has to be keeeein toduru

    #2010919
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    If a sukkah is to be compared to sleeping in the same room as a Sefer Torah (permitted if there is a mechitzah…) “Im keim batalta toras sukkah”, since the sukkah was given with all of its kedusha, specifically to be a holy place where one is tahshvu ken taduru. If it were simply like sleeping in a room where there’s a sefer torah, fhere wouldn’t be a mitzvah to sleep in it (or eat for that matter) to begin with.

    And yes, the only sort of discomfort we find are universal; cold, etc. There is a category of istenis, but one cannot claim to be so when it is convenient for him.

    #2011127
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    what i am saying is that since the mitzvah is teishvah kein toduru, comfort can be anything even something not uneversaal ansd noone can say thats wrong

    #2011418
    Yechi Hamelech
    Participant

    “some of the chabad rabaim did sleep in the sukkah”
    “I鈥檓 sure many did; until the last lubavitcher rebbe, no one said that the mitzvah doesn鈥檛 apply at all”

    Oy vey, what has the yeshivishe world come to?!
    Before you know it, they’ll be claiming that the Rebbes of Chabad learnt Daf Yomi.

    #2011448
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    yechi hamelech:
    it is true that some of the rabaim slept in the sukkah

    #2011547
    Yechi Hamelech
    Participant

    Haha melbournian! Are there no chabadniks near you down in Australia or something? at the rate of ignorance and downright stupidity that the yeshivish world is running on, the future of Chabad’s image doesn’t look too bright…..

    #2011566
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    YH – if you can’t think of any responses except being insulting and hateful (and then pretending it’s everyone else hating chabad) maybe you should find something else to do.

    #2011574
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    yechi hamelech:
    i wont take any offence from your words,
    i actually am a chabadnick and i heard about some of the rabaim sleeping in the sukkah from my grandfather

    #2011576
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    YH – are you saying that an assumption that a tzadik does a simple mitzvah deoraysoh is the same as a historical revision claiming that one sect practiced the innovation of another?

    Happens to be that the last lubavitcher rebbe initiated rambam yomi and the idea of a sefer chita”s. I’m sure at some point there will be people who claim that these are from ancient times as well.

    I agree with syag; you’re obviously very offended at any suggestion that chabad might not be correct on a given issue. Lashing out is usually a sign of insecurity; divrei chachamim benschas nishmaim

    #2011581
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    yechi hamelech:
    Reb Itche Demasmid slept in the Sukkah even when raining. [Reshimos Devarim 1 p. 287

    i found these sources by a simple search in google

    #2011580
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    yechi hamelch:
    The Tzemach tzedek once directed his Shamash Rav Yosef Mordechai to sleep in the Sukkah even though it was very cold. [Sefer HaToldos Rebbe Maharash p. 70]

    #2011595
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Melbourne – it’s not a surprise that there were chabad rabonim who slept in a sukkah; they were no different than rabbonim of every other chelek of klal yisroel

    #2011587

    Melbournian, i still dont understand how chabadniks like me and you and that tzvati yechie hmelech will have no issue sitting in the sukkah through hail and snow but when someone tells us that theres kedusha so we feel uncomfortable to sleep regardless of weather. Us lubavitchers are a shtickel confusing

    #2011594
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    “”Haha melbournian! Are there no chabadniks near you down in Australia or something? at the rate of ignorance and downright stupidity that the yeshivish world is running on, the future of Chabad鈥檚 image doesn鈥檛 look too bright鈥..””

    Why are you concerned with the image of chabad? Do you endeavor to make a kidush chabad instead of a kidush Hashem? Or are they one and the same to you?

    #2011612
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    nochum dokshitz:
    ye i agree
    also why do u think yechi hamelech is a tzfati?
    and btw you excited (NOT) for tommorow?

    #2011611
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    avirahdarah:
    “it鈥檚 not a surprise that there were chabad rabonim who slept in a sukkah; they were no different than rabbonim of every other chelek of klal yisroel”
    those references were for yechi who didnt beleive me,
    i just wonder why you are making such a big deal out of this when
    1. we have the tzar mentioned above in the igros letter i copied
    2. there are many others who pasken you dont need to sleep in the sukkah such as the ramah

    #2011675
    huju
    Participant

    ??????????????????????????????

    #2011645
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also,. I’m aware that there are plenty of chabad people who are normal and who practice regular yiddishkeit; I’m only addressing trends, not every individual

    #2011644
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    As i understand it, tzfas lubavitchers are known to be more extreme. The fact that he never responded to my questions regarding if he believes in the last lubavitcher rebbe as the essence of god wrapped in a body, enabling his followers to pray at his gravesite(thereby answering the question of not davening to intermediaries)….makes one wonder if he not only says yechi, but perhaps says ‘boreinu” as well; maybe he says it under his breath. I’ve known people who try to avoid answering such questions because they are not allowed to betray their faith, much as we would try to skirt around questions about lehavdil mechias amalek…we wouldn’t deny it but we’d try to make it less offensive to a secular or very modern person who asks us. So too, believers in the rebbe-god ideology try to beat around the bush and avoid simply saying that no, a tzadik is not god nor is he god wrapped in a body, and one may not pray to him, and that he does not know your thoughts or hear you except when Hashem wants him ( or anyone else, relatives etc) to.

    My rebbe Rav Belsky told me that the OU checks out every chabad shochet to see if they’re rebbe god people; not meshichisten – crazy as that might be, it is not avodah zara and would not disqualify one from shechting.

    #2011640
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Melbourne; it’s the definition of mitztayer that I’m not going to accept – it’s not something we find in halacha in other places. For instance, one can take medication on shabbos if they are in pain – it doesn’t say you can take medication if you are in pain because you’re not in pain. I know the comparison is a bit off; maybe someone else here can think of a better one, but the main issue is that we don’t find the idea of being mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer being an inyan, nor do we find that ruchnius issues like that are applicable in halacha especially regarding a deoraysoh.

    Re, the rema – that’s exactly how i answered the statements attributed to the miteler rebbe. He had a normative halachik heter that he and many other rabonim used. That heter is in the rema regarding men who are unable to be there with their wives – the rema rejected the cold heter, but many other poskim accepted it.

    However the only people ever to not sleep in a sukkah in eretz yisroel are neo-chabad. It’s not minhag hamakom and it’s a big pirtzas geder, since literally everyone sleeps in a sukkah there; chasidim, litvishe, sefardi…even religious zionists; everyone. Until this idea of being mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer was matir lubavitcher chasidim who live in eretz yisroel to go against an extremely established minhag.

    Even if, theoretically, there would be a heter in eretz yisroel (where it’s not cold) it would not license people to be poretz geder. This was one of rav shach’s main issues in his opposition.

    #2011828
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    avirahdarah:
    “Also,. I鈥檓 aware that there are plenty of chabad people who are normal and who practice regular yiddishkeit; I鈥檓 only addressing trends, not every individual”
    you saying they sleep in the sukkah?
    “it鈥檚 the definition of mitztayer that I鈥檓 not going to accept”
    i think this is the problem, it seems as if you think you know more torah and are a bigger tzadik then the rebbe and therfore you get pasken and decide that we cant be mitztayer this way

    #2011879
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Melbourne; tzidkus and the lack thereof do not absolutely qualify or disqualify a given psak – it doesn’t concern me if the last lubavitcher rebbe was a tzadik, or how big of a tzadik he was. It’s true that we only listen to rabbonim who are yirei shomayim, but that’s because if they’re not, they’re not reliable. But reliability has more criteria than tzidkus – if someone shows us that he is not following normal halachik reasoning, we simply will ignore him, no matter what mofsim he may or may not do. The fact that chabad constantly talks about his miracle workings is evidence that there is a need to compensate for the gedolei torah vocally opposing him.

    He said something (and other things) which according to normal halachik reasoning are invalid. It was for these reasons that he was opposed; not because of “jealousy” or “hisnagdus”, there were crystal clear reasons given by gedolei yisroel who opposed his innovations, this being one of them. It doesn’t matter that he knew more torah than me; if something is wrong, it’s wrong.

    If a rov told me, for instance, that women may be ordained, I would not check into his yichus or examine his hanhagos and how much he knew, and then accept what he says if he’s a tzadik and talmid chochom. We have brains that can see emes. I have a great deal of emunas chachamim; i follow any psak from my rebbeim and constantly sought their advice on personal issues, having confidence that their words were coming straight from the Torah they learned yomam velaylah. Yet if my rebbe told me to step on a bug on shabbos, or eat McDonald’s, ad kan rebbe. At that point i would assume that either he has lost his faculties or has become a rasha.

    The lubavitcher rebbe was not accepted in the first place as a universal gadol gador. Yet even if he were, there are limits.

    #2011887
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    avirahdarah:
    im not sure why you focused so much on the word tzadick, the point is that noone disagrees that the rebbe was a bigger talmid chochom than anyone on the cr including you

    #2011890
    afellowJew
    Participant

    I don’t understand why everything has to boil down to this petty fighting. Everyone should follow the instructions of their halachik authority!
    ( btw, Someone (chabad or litvishish) who wastes his time commenting in YWN coffee-room is not an halachik authority, even if he “knows better” than everyone else! )

    #2011936
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    exactly!!
    i just find it fun truthfully
    no hard feelings avirah darah

    #2011966
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Afellow – that is true in most cases, but in instances where one aide disputes the total legitimacy of the other, that attitude is misplaced. There were full fledged rabbonim in Europe who were maskilim; they had left normative Orthodoxy and even though they were knowledgeable, they were not reliable poskim. This list includes some names that I’d rather not mention, but is known in the deeper circles of the yeshivishe world. Chasidim never acknowledged them to begin with. Other examples of this phenomenon are people like shmuel Dovid lutzato, who kept the mitzvos but was very influenced by haskalah and was therefore shunned by the frum world.

    So too with orthodox rabbis who allow female ordination; some established religious zionist morei horaah such as the author of bnei bonim have endorsee it – his rulings are to be disregarded entirely; he us unfit to render halachik rulings.

    Many gedolei yisroel felt that chabad had taken such a turn in their own way.

    #2011979
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    what happened to yechi hamelech?
    he hasnt responded to the thread in a few days

    #2012139
    afellowJew
    Participant

    Avira,

    1) When I read through this thread and I have found that whenever a comment was made, you responded very soon after. Take my advise, get off your device and learn some torah, you’ve wasted enough time already! Someone who is spends so much time in a YWN Coffee-Room, his posts lose some credibility, because if one really smart and knew his facts, he wouldn’t be spending so much time in a YWN Coffee-Room! SO GO LEARN HASHEMS TORAH! (the above applies to most of the participants in this discussion, Litvish or ChaBaD!)

    2) Nobody is gonna change their derech in Avodas Hashem because a YWN Coffee-Room, so the excuse that your (false) lashon harah “facts” stated about a big group of Yidden will change anyone, let me tell you now, it wont. The only person you are convincing that you have a legitimate excuse for your bitul Torah is yourself! SO GO LEARN HASHEMS TORAH! (the above applies to some other participants in this discussion!)

    3)To quote you “Lashing out is usually a sign of insecurity; divrei chachamim benschas nishmaim.”
    Based your above posts, I take from this that you are very insecure of your “litvish status” and
    are too insecure to make any changes in your life so you just lash out at everyone else to try to
    make yourself feel good. So figure yourself out, are you ChaBaD or Litvish?

    4) The threads goal was for people to know if they should sleep in the succah or not, the one and only answer is, Everyone should follow the instructions of their OWN halachik authority!

    Just a note for the future – when the only content of a post is to attack a poster on a personal level, it will usually be deleted. – 29

    #2012120
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Has the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L ever said that people should not sleep in the Sukkah, or was it just him and his talmidim emulated him?

    #2012151
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Based your above posts, I take from this that you are very insecure of your 鈥渓itvish status鈥 and are too insecure to make any changes in your life so you just lash out at everyone else ”

    Um… hello? Have you checked the definition of “lashing out”? When you and your friends call someone names, tell him he spends too much time online, doesn’t learn enough etc because you don’t like that he brings halachik questions/proofs/issues with something you do that is NOT him who is lashing out. And then twisting your nastiness into “chabad hate” when there was nothing but halachik argument… well that pretty much describes what happens almost EVERY time one of you jumps in. Take a hard, objective look at your communication. Excusing yourself to defend your torah is exactly what you accuse him of.

    #2012161
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Chabad, both online and in person, often resort to personal attacks, both because they lack power counterarguments and because of righteous indignation at the thought of someone arguing with their rebbe and their yiddishkeit. If someone proved my rebbe wrong, it would not affect my yiddishkeit.

    I disagree with the contention that nobody will change their mind because of online articles. I agree that short, snarky comments, or personal attacks, will convince no one, but thought out, essay-like writings can be pursuasive. I say that because I myself became more religious from the old frumteens site.

    There are few online outlets for authentic hashkofa, and the internet is dominated by religious zionism, modern orthodoxy and xhabad. The yeshiva and chadidish world is not represented much. I agree that i will not convince most people who post here; people are strong in their opinions and aren’t on here to question them. I try to be open minded within reason, but there is no circumstance where i will become MO or neo-chabad.

    Also, i enjoy writing and i don’t have much outlet for it otherwise. I agree that i should learn more, but whether or not that is true has nothing to do with the veracity of my statements or my arguments.

    #2012181
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “I myself became more religious from the old frumteens site.”

    well I guess that does explain your similarity to Joseph in his extremism

    #2012242
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    yserbius123:
    “Has the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT鈥滾 ever said that people should not sleep in the Sukkah, or was it just him and his talmidim emulated him?”
    the rebbe said it
    avirahdarah:
    “If someone proved my rebbe wrong, it would not affect my yiddishkeit.”
    there is a very big difference between your rebbe (im assuming your teacher) and a rebbe of any chasidus, they are 2 very different types of rebbes

    #2012243
    aposhiteyid
    Participant

    and also avirahdarah:
    where was the rebbe proven wrong that affected chabads yiddishkeit?

    #2012245
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Syag, rabbi yaakov shapiro is very typical of the core yeshiva world, as I later learned in my years at various yeshivos. There are many things that aren’t palatable to the general population and are not as widely known. For instance, rav moshe has a letter about college where he says that “even though we don’t tell this to klal yisroel”, regarding his shitah that it is assur for most yeshiva bochurim to go to college.

    #2012254
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I disagree but am not interested in arguing. You did pretty much nail my point tho when reb Moshe in his holiness and wisdom says straight out that something isn’t shared with the klal, but you and Joseph seem to have dubbed yourselves above that- bringing it not just to the klal but to the internet and for no valid tachlis.

    #2012276
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Syag; i don’t believe I’ve gotten into issues which gedolim wished to be kept “in house”. In my yeshiva days i used to try and convince bochurim to stay out of college; that’s not something i would discuss online. Neither would i discuss my opinions about a host of issues ranging from the consumption of sushi to reading “jewish” magazines – my rebbeim did, but they were talking to yeshiva bochurim/yungerleit.

    I’ve talked about things which i think are “shaveh lechol nefesh” for the most part. Zionisk, chabad and MO are among the issues that on the contrary, concern the greater community much more than the bochur sitting over a tosfos all day. They present various threats to the more susceptible.

    #2014015
    philosopher
    Participant

    AviraDeArah wrote “You鈥檝e also not said clearly that you do not believe in atzmus elokus theology, nor have you even tried the 鈥測ou have to know what it means鈥 retort 鈥 I鈥檇 like you to say on the record, a simple yes or no, if you believe that a rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body and therefore you can pray at the grave of a rebbe, and it鈥檚 not an intermediary, because he is the essence of god wrapped in a body.

    Yes or no.”
    I have noted that Yechi Hamalech has not responded.

    If AviraDeArah’s assertions are correct, which I hope they are not, then this ideoligy is a second Christian religion in the making. Unfortunately Yechi Hamalech has not responded in the negative. This is very concerning and eye opening to me.

    #2014189
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Philosopher, Google shlomo cunin rebbe runs world (head of West coast chabad) if you want to see something eye opening with your actual eyes

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