Sleeping in the sukkah
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- This topic has 146 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 6 months ago by AviraDeArah.
October 10, 2021 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #2014254
unfortunately u guys have not learnt the sichah nor understand it, (obviously according to what you say) and are therefore making machlokusOctober 10, 2021 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #2014267
melbournian i think that chabad niks do what ther Local orthodox rabbi tells them to do and litvishes do what there local orthodox rabbi tells them to do.October 10, 2021 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #2014293
Melbourne; I’ve seen the piece in shaarei halacha uminhag, i quoted it here…we get it, we simply dispute it.October 10, 2021 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #2014324
“we get it,we simply dispute it”
thats fine as long as you dont accuse it of being kefirahOctober 11, 2021 7:52 am at 7:52 am #2014441
agreedOctober 12, 2021 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2015113
back to the sukkah, I think there are legitimate reasons to consider this whole dor istanis, given our lifestyle. We also have different attitudes towards dwellings – we do not have dirt floors, people travelling for work sleep in separate rooms instead of the inn bar, etc. Add to that Ashkenazi habit of not sleeping in the sukkah for hundreds of years due to weather and even if NY is slightly warmer than Lyadi, the danger outside (where the honest people are behind bars) compensates. We all know that it is easier to accept a new explanation to a minhag than to change the minhag! You would not be wearing Polish clothes otherwise. So, there is some support to Lubavicher sensitivity to people’s sensitivities.
Even if you look at classical examples of instanis from a quick Google. I am 4 out of 6, and I know those who are 6 out of 6 🙂 What are you?
1. walking in non-leather shoes on 9AV [Rabbi Shlomo Oiyrbach allows because nowadays we all “istanis” (הליכות שלמה ה, טז-יז).]
2. someone who is disgusted by drinking from a cup where someone else drank (Tamid 27b)
3. someone too delicate to work (Sotah 11a)
4. someone too delicate to bathe in cold water (Yoma 31b and Yoma 34b)
5. an overly sensitive person whose days are made worse from constantly encountering unpleasant situations (Sanhedrin 100b and Bava Batra 145b)
6. requiring a daily bath (Berachot 16b)October 12, 2021 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2015231
i agree aaq good pointOctober 12, 2021 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #2015254
that said, people need to understand each other better.
Once a visiting non-Chabad chusid came to sleep in a sukkah at a college Chabad House. Chabad Rov came in and said, semi-humorously, “no sleeping in my sukkah”. The guy did not say a word, got up and left before anyone realized what is happening. Closest other sukkah was 30 minutes away. The Rov did not feel well. The chusid came back for the morning minyan as if nothing happened.October 12, 2021 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #2015285
Aaq, bear in mind we’re dealing with a deoraysoh…also we’re not talking about practices of chutz laaretz, where the minhag of being maikil is established. We’re talking about a pirtzas geder in eretz yisroel based on “mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer” garbled reasoning. To say that everyone nowadays is an istinis regarding aveilus, is not so shver because we’re supposed to be naikil in aveilus and it’s likewise a derabonon… it’s also a question of veing very uncomfortable.
Here as we can see from the millions of jews who sleep in a sukkah in eretz yisroel, they are not istinis in this regard..
If one regards himself as an istinis, as the aruch hashulchan says he must be that way in every respect, not just when it’s convenient. Bochurim who go a whole week without showering(this happens in all communities which have bochurim, chabad included…not all, but I’d say 15% in Litvishe and Chasidishe yeshivos) are not istinisim, but they also don’t sleep in a sukkah in neo-chabad…. that’s a clear contradictionOctober 12, 2021 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #2015306
the story I brought above brings a nafka mina for this minhag: when someone else sleeps in a Chabad Sukkah. Are you istanis and respect the sleeping person for his strength, or are you upset that the other person does not feel the kedusha and thus you can’t fall asleep in your house while the guest is snorring outside oblivious to mittele rebbe ushpeznut.October 13, 2021 1:21 am at 1:21 am #2015305
Avira > Bochurim who go a whole week without showering
Can’t skip a good joke let me know when you have one…edited
Sociologically, I think this is an endearing example of how we get attached to minhagim, even when cold-headed halachik analysis differ (some might call this :minhag shtus”). If Chabad were to have started in Tzfat, this might not have happened. But it became a point of contention (whether back in Belorussia or in NYC) and so it became an important height to defend. Can someone check with Chabad of Hawaii if they also think that it is too cold outside? So, if our choice is to characterize them as rebels or istani, maybe the latter is preferable?
In all such cases, I would be happy if people at least acknowledge that they are doing something unusual and respect the rest of klal Isroel. A similar (you may disagree) case is people who not just keep cholov isroel, but consider the plates of others “treif” and similar cases.October 17, 2021 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #2017180
anyone know why in the orginal posts there are a lot of question marks or why this is on the top of cofferoom? @mod-29?October 17, 2021 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #2017218
“why this is on the top of cofferoom?”
because at first it wasnt showing up in the topics so they pinned it so it staysOctober 21, 2021 3:57 am at 3:57 am #2019187AshParticipant
there are question marks because there were originally Hebrew words. Threads from a few years back containing Hebrew got garbled during their forum upgrade a few years ago (probably due to not taking into account encoding changes e.g. from utf16 to utf8). It’s a shame they haven’t managed to fix this.October 27, 2021 11:30 am at 11:30 am #2021346
So I listened to Cunin’s speech and it really sounds similar to Christianity, that speech should’ve been condemned. He clearly said that the Rebbe runs the world. I don’t care who wrote what sichah and what it says there if it says that a Rebbe runs the world then it is simply wrong. Hashem runs the world, period.October 27, 2021 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #2021561
Tzadik Gozer Vehashem MekayemOctober 28, 2021 11:03 am at 11:03 am #2021895
aposhitayid, what are you trying to say that it’s ok to say tzaddikim, or in this particular case, the Lubavitche Rebbe, runs the world? That is a fallacy and sorry to be blunt but it is apikorses to believe that.
A tzaddik can be goizer and Hashem will be makayim but only if it His will to do so. Hashem is in full control, He is the One who runs the world. There were many great tzaddikim who were goizer things that never happened, ultimately everything is in the hands of Hashem.October 28, 2021 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #2022197
Ill try explain myself but after this im not going to get into this argument any further.
If a tzadik is gozer and the Hashem is mekayem that same thing, would that not mean that the tzaddik is “controlling” that thing?
This is not neccesarily what Rabbi Cunin meant, just a suggestion.October 28, 2021 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #2022200
No. Not even a little.October 29, 2021 7:00 am at 7:00 am #2022218
If a random person in the street said that the world will know that rav moshe feinstein runs the world, you would disregard him as a lunatic.
Why is it different when a chabad rabbi claims this for his rebbe? Why do we run to defend it? Just because chabad does chessed and kiruv doesn’t mean they’re immune to criticism.
People will say “let’s see what you do next time you’re in Oklahoma and the only place you have is chabad”.
The above applies; that does not make one immune from criticism. For the record, I also was told by my rav to daven beyechidus rather than in a chabad shul, in light of the possibility of rebbe worship therein. I also wouldn’t eat meat from them.October 29, 2021 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2022289
> what you do next time you’re in Oklahoma
> daven beyechidus rather than in a chabad shul,
First, I presume you will have mashihists in some central locations, but in Oklahoma the only person who might be one would be the shaliach himself, the rest being pure neshomos. Also, what is the probability one needs to be hashash for? We do have examples from Mishnah when we silence hazzanim who daven apikoires, so it was not unheard of to happen to be among some sort of unorthodox opinions. So, why can’t you go there and leave you hear something inappropriate.
FWIW, once at a wedding, a bunch of Chabadnikim started dancing “moshiach, moshiach” and my Teacher from Lakewood, who is a little big in all dimensions, got up, held the chief Chabadnik in his hands and circled him around until the other guy fell of exhaustion. I presume to show that we all are pro-Moshiach. He davened with them also. So, your Rav may be an outlier.
When unorthodox opinions are vadai, then you are right. R Soloveichik rules that one can not go to listen to shofar there.October 30, 2021 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #2022436
Avirah: “If a random person in the street said that the world will know that rav moshe feinstein runs the world, you would disregard him as a lunatic.”
But what about when they are not such a random person.October 30, 2021 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #2022437
As he is not such a random person.
And what if he says that Moshe Rabeinu runs the world?October 31, 2021 12:41 am at 12:41 am #2022552
If someone would say Moshe Rabbeinu runs the world I would consider him to be crazy. The Torah is clear on this and our real Rabbonim made clear: only Hashem runs the world!
Anyone who thinks a Rebbe runs the world is not being a God-fearing, frum Yid and their religion mimics Christianity. Christians believe in a god of three, the trinity, they together are considered one, this is avodei zara. Thinking that a Rebbe runs the world, that God does whatever the tzaddik decides should be done, is a religion of “twinity” or call it any other name, but it is avode zora 100%
God is One! Everything that happens is His will, if He wants to do what a tzaddik is goizer He will, if He doesn’t want to, He won’t! No tzaddik has the power to run the world, only God!October 31, 2021 1:52 am at 1:52 am #2022582
Tzadik gozer is the idea that a tzadik is in sync with the ratzon Hashem; retzon yireav yaaseh; like the tanya talks about the avos as being the mercava for Hashem – if a true tzadik wants something, it’s a sign that Hashem wants it too.
Only Hashem however, actually runs the worldOctober 31, 2021 10:07 am at 10:07 am #2022609
Of course, but what about eg the story of the besht that someone asked him to give them a brachah (i think for a child and there was some favour they did for him) and he gave a brachah. There waas then a bas kol that said that since u gave that brachah contrary to My wishes (kaveyochol) u will lose your olam haboh. The story dosnt end there but my point is that kaveyachol the Besht had a different will to Hashem.
Also with Eliyahu hanavie bringing famine to the kingdom of yisrael and then also wanting to give a women a brachah for a child and Hashem telling Eliyahu he can only have 1 key…
So not Chas Veshalom to say that the Rebbe runs the world and Hashem dosn’t, just… ( i think you get my point)October 31, 2021 10:09 am at 10:09 am #2022616
“our real Rabbonim”
Who said that you get to decide who “real Rabonim” are??October 31, 2021 10:09 am at 10:09 am #2022638
is chabad halachicly avoideh zorah? can anyone answer this question with a psak from a posek not from a mouth that spews spaghetti?October 31, 2021 10:09 am at 10:09 am #2022640
i think its better we move this conversation to a new thread instead of watering down the original legitimate questionOctober 31, 2021 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2022705
Oh, and aposhitayid, you can’t bring chabad sources to source themselvesOctober 31, 2021 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2022699
aposhiteyid – your stories above clearly support her point more than yours.
Farby- don’t start with the insults. Calm down and present your points or drop it. If you don’t like hearing someone defend what they know is true, why do you think it’s ok for you to do it? See?October 31, 2021 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #2022780
Aposhitehyid; this is why i said “usually”, and that it’s a “sign,” nothing’s absolute.October 31, 2021 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #2022884
“you can’t bring chabad sources to source themselves”
” your stories above clearly support her point more than yours.”
Please explain how.October 31, 2021 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2022928
syag, can you answer my questions. you could be right that im using insults and il try stop but i want to know what the answer to my question is.November 1, 2021 12:07 am at 12:07 am #2022988
aposhitayid, any “Rabbi” who says that their Rebbe runs the world is a fake rabbi, I don’t care if he has a large black hat and a frock and learns a lot. A real Rabbi has such fear and awe of Hashem, as much as he looks up to his Rebbe or tzaddikim, he knows good and well that אין עוד מלבדו and that his Rebbe, as great as he is, is only a בשר ודם and if Hashem wants or doesn’t want something there’s nothing a Rebbe can do to change that.
What are these stories supposed to prove? That Hashem כביכול runs to do the bidding of Rebbes even if it is against His will?! That Rebbes are subjugating the will of Hashem so that He does their bidding?! This is not what these stories tell us and it is absolutely apikorses to think like that. It is as Avirah says, that a tzaddik’s will is (usually) in sync with Hashem’s and in cases where it is not Hashem’s will to do what a Rebbe is goizer, it will not be mekiim.
Do you think that your Rebbe runs the world or not?November 1, 2021 1:52 am at 1:52 am #2023006
Philiphosor Chas vesholomNovember 1, 2021 2:49 am at 2:49 am #2023025
“any “Rabbi” who says that their Rebbe runs the world is a fake rabbi, I don’t care if he has a large black hat and a frock and learns a lot. ”
Do you also not care about the context, what he actually meant?
Because that’s what it seems like.
(I apologize if you are finding me harsh)November 1, 2021 9:29 am at 9:29 am #2023033
Aposhitehyid; is there a context where it is appropriate for someone to say that god has a body cv”s, doesn’t know the past cv”s, or any other statement that contravenes the 13 ikkarim? There simply isn’tNovember 1, 2021 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #2023222
aposhitayid, I am not finding you harsh, on the contrary I hope I do not sound harsh, I am not looking to personally attack anyone. I’m sorry we are having this discussion and this is tsishukling me that frum Yidden would think like this.
I have had arguments with Christians and they would also try to put their beliefs “into context”. The verse means this and that and the trinity really means this or that… it’s all shtissim. Let’s get back to the basics, there is no context where we can say a Rebbe is running the world. No context at all. I’m telling you this sounds very similar to Christianity.
Even if HKB”H is mekiim what a tzaddik is goizer, whether it’s a bracha or a klala, it is one little teeny aspect in the bigger picture of reality. The universe and reality is so grand and beyond our understanding, only God can run the world and we cannot say otherwise regardless in which context you would want to frame it in. Hashem runs the world, period. This is the essence, the core of Yiddishkeit.November 9, 2021 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #2026543TS BaumParticipant
I want to make things clear: The Rebbe was one of (if not the) the most biggest and chashuvah tzaddikim in his generation. You are just too IGNORANT and don’t know half a page of tanya so you listen to anything some greasy bachurim hock to you about in your coffee room in your yeshiva. If you would just become a bit more knowledgable, look a little more for the truth, you’ll find out how ignorant you have been.
The Rebbe on Sukkos cat-napped. Meaning, he didn’t GO to sleep. He may have ended up falling asleep for a short while, less than 20 minutes, which according to halachah is considered a nap. And have you every heard of Yaakov Avinu? He learned in Yeshivas Shem V’ever for 20 years, and he ‘didn’t sleep’. Say your same ta’ane to Yaakov Avinu, and say that Chazal lies Chas V’shalom! Yaakov Avinu didn’t go to sleep, but he slept small naps.
I suggest you learn more about the Rebbe and his tzidkus and gadlus from authentic sources and then talk. You know for a fact that you are just ignorant.
edited, although not quite as much as it should have been…November 9, 2021 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #2026567
I love how every once in a yovel a chabad teen will come on, read one post, and start calling people names while telling everyone they don’t know all the things that we have actually discussed in depth many times over.
So it seems calling people names when you don’t agree with them is something you learn in yeshiva, otherwise why would it happen so consistently. Is that really how you are taught to deal with people who believe differently than you?November 10, 2021 7:25 am at 7:25 am #2026603
what do you mean when you say that’s what we are taught in every Chabad Yeshiva?November 10, 2021 7:44 am at 7:44 am #2026659
Sarcasm. Imitating the comment we have frequently gotten that our yeshivos teach us to hate chabad.November 10, 2021 8:06 am at 8:06 am #2026669Ober ChochomParticipant
Number one, I have read all he posts on this thread.
Number two, I didn’t say anything about a chabad yeshiva.
Number three, I need to correct myself, it was 14 years, not 20.
Number Four, I realized how worthless this conversation is. We’re not getting anywhere with this. What problem do you have so much with lubavitch that you need to bash it so much? If your gonna start looking for questions ask satmar why they where dafka white socks, over their pants. ANd your not gonna make lubavitchers not sleep in the sukkah because your making such a big deal over it.
Why don’t you check your tefillin every year? Why dafka every seven years? I can ask that question, I can even make a thread about it, but why whould I? It just split’s klal yisrael because the different minhagim and opinions they follow. WHy are we focusing so much on parts we we disagree? Let’s start threads on what we do agree on. (We doesn’t mean litvish and chabad, it means yidden)November 10, 2021 8:08 am at 8:08 am #2026678
looks like you accidentally responded with one of your other screen namesNovember 10, 2021 8:25 am at 8:25 am #2026689
So Mr. Ober Baum, I am not sure who you are addressing since most of that was not about my comment but I will respond to point 4.
1) I find that lubavitch tends to call things bashing (okay farby, not you) whenever they don’t like something so I won’t elaborate on that. On the other hand you ask what problem? I think if you read the thread (or the 100 others) it should be fairly obvious what problem “we” have. It has been listed, stated, quoted, explained, elaborated upon, discussed etc. Not always nicely but sometimes very cut and clear. So you brush it away with no legitimate response and say ‘okay, so what’s the problem’?
If I went into a store and said I needed to return a an item because the electrical parts don’t work, the color is uneven, the size is not as stated and it sparks when I use it, can the employee say, “okay, but what’s the problem?”
2) And here is where you shot your argument in the foot – Feel free to start threads about all those things. We often argue halachos and minhagim, that does NOT split klal yisroel – it’s called a discussion. And guess what, if someone started a thread asking why satmar wear white socks, I would expect someone familiar with the minhag (?) would give an answer. And nobody will call it bashing, splitting or hating. If you’ve learned gemara you would know that that’s what yidden do.November 10, 2021 10:54 am at 10:54 am #2026762
So let’s be clear; questioning why satmar dresses a certain way and why some people check tefilin every 7 years (Halacha is you never have to check tefilin as per shu”a o.c. 39;10) is equivalent to the charges of negating a mirzvah deoraysoh and being poretz geder in eretz yisroel? That’s not too mention the other issues of akiras hadas that have been discussed on here, the likes of which one cannot ever find even among the fringe extremes of other groups. No breslov chossid believes that rav nachman is the essence of god wrapped in a body, etc.
That’s not hateful, it’s just the sad reality.
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