Smoking affects others.

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  • #1544265

    Midwest2
    Participant

    The CDC (a part of the US Public Health Service, which works to keep you and me alive) uses the best current methodology. That’s their job – that’s what we pay them for. If you’ve never learned any statistics, go to the library and ask the librarian to find you a book so you can understand the difference between causation and correlation, and why legitimate medical research very seldom uses the term “cause” – because the bar is so high.

    Given your spirited defense of smoking, I find it hard to believe that you’ve never smoked. I did back in the day, and I know that the issue of choice is very difficult. Nicotine is more addictive than heroin, and kicking smoking is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life. I finally succeeded because I developed bronchial pneumonia, and literally couldn’t breathe in smoke without having an asthma attack. If you’re hooked, get help. If you’re not hooked, quit talking about something of which you are ignorant.

    #1544314

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Nicotine is not more addictive than heroin, in my opinion. Disclaimer: I’ve never tried heroin.

    The CDC engages in “public health” campaigns all the time. It often publishes misleading facts and statistics, with the goal being to influence behaviors. The case of smoking in particular is enlightening, as the CDC has likely saved many lives by misrepresentation of smoking’s dangers.

    Smoking kills. It often causes lung cancer. It usually causes more harm than good for most people. That doesn’t mean that the CDC is the most objective source for information on this topic.

    #1544315

    Health
    Participant

    yitzchokm -“Health, read the study. The CDC statistics are based on flawed methodology.
    Their methodology is like yours, you say you know two people, one a smoker and one, a secondhand smoker.
    According to you, they both died of lung disease or cancer. You’re saying, that the second hand smoke caused the lung cancer. The study proves that the lung cancer was not caused by secondhand smoke.”

    I’m quite perplexed – what are the purpose of all your posts?!?
    Are you a smoker with a guilty complex, or do you work for Phillip Morris?
    There might be some other reason that I can’t think of.
    EITHER WAY – WHY DO YOU KEEP PROMOTING SMOKING & Second-hand SMOKING?!?

    You found one study about Second-hand SMOKING and decided that it was the reality.
    WHY?!?
    Almost e/o doesn’t believe that Study – so why are you pushing it?!?
    Here is another Study that is accepted by most!

    “Evaluating the evidence for the relationship between passive smoking and lung cancer
    Claire H. Kim, Lina Mu, […], and Zuo-Feng Zhang
    Dear sir,
    “No Clear Link Between Passive Smoking and Lung Cancer”—this was the title of a news article published in the December, 2013 issue, etc…
    Given the vast volume of literature demonstrating the effects of passive smoking, the public health message regarding this topic should be that there is a clear link between passive smoking and lung cancer and there is no safe level of exposure.”

    #1544323

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    “Public health message” ie not the truth?

    #1544356

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    For the last time, I don’t smoke, no one in my family smokes, no one around me smokes. I have no personal vested interest in this. I just find it interesting that people who are ignorant try to change behaviors of others.

    Study after study proves that secondhand smoke does not cause lung cancer. There are many news articles about this online besides for the actual studies. I understand that it’s politically expedient to claim it does, since it scores points for certain interest groups. The facts are the facts.

    You’re trying to ostracize a large part of your Jewish brethren because you don’t like what they do. And that’s what’s bothering me. You have no right to judge others and their behavior due to your ill-conceived notion that second-hand smoke causes lung cancer.

    It’s not healthy for them to smoke. I know that. Everyone knows this. Being overweight is also bad, eating sugary Foods is also bad
    Do you think your body is happy that you’re sitting in front of a computer all day? It’s also bad for you. Lack of exercise can cause heart disease. It should be forbidden to sit at a computer desk all day and use the car to commute. But it’s not forbidden, because each time you sit down at the computer it’s not dangerous. It’s the cumulative effect of it that’s a problem.

    In the same vain, smoking isn’t forbidden according to R Moshe. So they’re not doing anything wrong per se, and your claim that secondhand smoke will kill you just isn’t true. It’s not illegal, it’s not immoral, it won’t kill you, it won’t cause any long-term side effects to be occasionally in the room for someone else smokes. As distasteful as that may be.

    Ironically enough, studies show that due to public opinion about secondhand smoke and the lack of public space available for smokers, more and more young children are being exposed to secondhand smoke because their parents smoke at home. Unattended consequences of a liberal mind.

    So, please, stop the hyperbole and look at the actual facts. I happen to hate the smell of smoke. I’m actually very sensitive to it. This should be a logical conversation not one based on what you think you know.

    Yes, it bothers people. It doesn’t mean it’s wrong to engage in it.

    I’m just wondering, do you believe global warming will kill you? According to the CDC…..

    #1544359

    Chaim Eliezer
    Participant

    I highly recommend a book by a genuine epidemiologist at Einstein College of Medicine. It’s called “Hyping Health Risks”, by Geoffrey Kabat, published by Columbia University Press. He shows that the incidence of lung cancer among non-smokers is so small that almost any attempt to find causality is doomed. In particular, second-hand smoke is so vastly diluted compared to what’s inhaled by a smoker, that no ill effects are ever likely to be demonstrated. Rather, the idea of second-hand smoke was seized on as a way to keep anyone from smoking in the presence of other people.

    Smoking is indeed dangerous, and every legitimate effort by poskim or, l’havdil, the government should be applauded. It’s interesting that another demonstrated health risk is given a complete pass. Mishkav zachor is much more dangerous than smoking cigarettes, but the Supreme Court has ruled it muttar.

    #1544366

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Smoking cigarettes may not be the most dangerous thing a person can do, but it’s terrible hygiene. It’s as bad as not showering. It’s not illegal or particularly dangerous to put a dead fish in one’s hat either.

    #1544538

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    yitzchok m- what is your opinion on pregnant women drinking alcohol? How about taking marijuana?

    #1544554

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    pregnant women drinking alcohol is bad for the baby.

    Smoking marijuana for recreational purposes is completely forbidden according to R. Moshe

    #1544564

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    yitzchokm:

    Who says drinking alcohol is bad for the baby? There has yet to be even one study that has found that drinking light alcohol such as wine or beer in normal amounts is harmful to babies. Women avoid alcohol in order to be on the safe side.

    Where did I say anything about smoking for recreational purposes? I’m talking about using marijuana (not by smoking) for its medicinal properties such as pain relief and anti-nausea.

    It seems like you’re of the opinion that women need to be “on the safe side” yet men can do what they want as long as it’s not 100% proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that what they are doing is harmful. Am I wrong? What would you say to the idea of women smoking in general?

    #1544615

    votekosher
    Participant

    I smoked a pack a day for 20 years, and then 4-5 cigarettes/day for another 10 years before I fully stopped . I have COPD for 7 years now. I can barely walk up the steps from the subway to the street without gasping for air. Soon I will need oxygen. Only an IDIOT still smokes in this day and age. Use nicorrete or similar or chantix or whatever you need, but STOP SMOKING.

    #1544637

    Health
    Participant

    CE -“Rather, the idea of second-hand smoke was seized on as a way to keep anyone from smoking in the presence of other people.”

    Baloney! Stop promoting Conspiracy Theories!

    “Smoking is indeed dangerous, and every legitimate effort by poskim or, l’havdil, the government should be applauded. It’s interesting that another demonstrated health risk is given a complete pass. Mishkav zachor is much more dangerous than smoking cigarettes, but the Supreme Court has ruled it muttar.”

    That’s because our Judicial sysyem is totally LIBERAL!

    #1544780

    Health
    Participant

    yitzchokm -“Study after study proves that secondhand smoke does not cause lung cancer.”

    Name one, besides the one was Debunked!

    “You’re trying to ostracize a large part of your Jewish brethren because you don’t like what they do. And that’s what’s bothering me. You have no right to judge others and their behavior due to your ill-conceived notion that second-hand smoke causes lung cancer”

    Again – I know personally a lady who died because of Second-hand smoke – so therefore I have the moral right to believe the CDC on their statistics about smoking.
    What right do you have to publically state that the CDC and other government agencies are lying about their statistics with regards to SMOKING?!?

    “The facts are the facts.”
    Passive/second-hand smoking is being a Rodef.

    #1544849

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    You know she died from secondhand smoke the way I know that children have autism due to vaccines. Correlation doesn’t equal causation. Get that through your head.

    Also,

    You cant be a rodef if it’s halachicly okay.

    You cant be a rodef if it’s halachicly okay

    You cant be a rodef if it’s halachicly okay

    You cant be a rodef if it’s halachicly okay

    You cant be a rodef if it’s halachicly okay

    Repeat that 5 times in a row until you internalize it. Or don’t, and convince yourself you’re right.

    We keep going around in circles, you sticking to your feelings and me sticking to the facts.

    I’m done with the topic.

    Health, stay willfully ignorant. It suits you well.

    Adios!

    #1544932

    catch yourself
    Participant

    YitzchokM, Although I oppose your position on this topic, I agree that in order for a discussion to be intelligent it must be dispassionate.

    It is true that Rav Moshe stopped just short of outright prohibiting smoking, however…

    This conversation is incomplete without mention of Rav Moshe’s Psak [the same Rav Moshe – this Teshuva is in Choshen Mishpat 2:18] that even if smoking is permitted, the fact that it is damaging, or even bothersome, or simply annoying, to others can not be discounted. He therefore rules that you may not even smoke in your own home if the secondhand smoke will damage, or bother, or even simply annoy, your neighbor.

    #1544935

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Now I see that YitzchokM said that he is done with the topic. I sincerely hope this is just rhetoric, since we are supposedly having a rational, dispassionate debate, and, as shown in my previous post, he is absolutely wrong to assume that the question of whether it is permitted to smoke in public depends solely on the issue of whether it is permitted to smoke at all.

    In any case, I’m not sure I agree that “you can’t be a Rodef if it’s Halachicly okay.” After all, the Gemara says clearly that Pinchas was a Rodef, and Zimri would have been within his rights to kill Pinchas, whose actions were most certainly Halachicly okay. A fetus in utero can also be considered a Rodef, despite not having done anything that is not Halachicly okay.

    #1544974

    Health
    Participant

    yitzchokm -“You know she died from secondhand smoke the way I know that children have autism due to vaccines. Correlation doesn’t equal causation.”

    If s/o pushes hard enough – the lies are exposed!
    I don’t have to prove 100% that the cause of death was Second-hand smoking. Here was an otherwise healthy woman that developed lung CA. Common sense tells us that the constant exposure to smoking was the cause.
    Your comparison to autism/vaccines just proves that you’re Full of Baloney!

    “Also, You cant be a rodef if it’s halachicly okay.”

    Another illogical sentence!
    It’s perfectly permitted to use a knife to cut Kosher meat; but on the other-hand, you can’t use it to chase after s/o to hurt him.

    #1545072

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Health, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. Further, you need to come up with better analogies.

    #1545183

    Health
    Participant

    FNY -“Health, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.”

    Why? I understood all the posts?

    “Further, you need to come up with better analogies.”

    Why? Because you didn’t understand it? It was very simple to understand!

    #1547758

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I believe he meant that the analogy does not accurately represent the subject matter.

    #1548578

    icemelter
    Participant

    Is vaping as bad as smoking?

    #1548663

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    No.

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