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“Also, are you saying that since this was regarding a personal relationship he shouldn’t have been removed from office for committing perjury? ”
Exactly.
The impeaching of Clinton was minimally about the laws of perjury. It was more about his moral character.“Would you also say that if he shot Monica when he was done that he shouldn’t have been removed from office since it was part of a personal relationship?”
Is murder considered Treason, Bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors ? It probably depends on the political climate. I am sure if Trump did it, the Republicans would have excuses not to impeach just like you excuse Trump’s impeachments in your next paragraph because of some Democratic statements made beforehand.“Regarding the two recent impeachments- Democrats made a mockery of the process by saying that they were going to impeach him before he was even sworn in- they just needed the numbers and once they got that after the midterm elections they went for it.”
It is not the Democrat’s fault that Trump tried to overturn a lost election and bribe Zelensky to find dirt on his political rival. Those are treason and high crimes and he only has himself to blame.
2) I defend the Democrats forcefully in the CR. They have positions that a Frum Yid should agree with and the Republicans have some positions that a Frum Yid should reject.
If everyone in the CR respected that there can be different views, I would barely have what to say. I am defending the Democrats from the views of those who believe that they are completely Evil and that Republicans are completely Righteous, and that it is assur to vote Democrat.
“I haven’t read through all you posts but I don’t think you ever said that you strongly disagree with them trying to force society to recognize relationships that the Torah call an abomination or that you disagree with the notion that unborn babies should be killed at the whim of the mother but we should continue voting Democrat as it’s the lesser of two evils (because they give generous handouts).”
I said multiple times that we are not arguing about the Torah.
Do I have to write that I put on Tefillin every day and keep Shabbos? Since I didn’t write it, can you make an assumption that I don’t ?
I will say it now for you. I strongly disagree with anybody trying to force society to recognize relationships that the Torah call an abomination. I disagree with the notion that unborn babies should be killed at the whim of the mother.
Most Democrats can make the exact same statements. Most believe in Hashem and are religious.The head of the Democratic party currently is a very religious and church going man. There have been Jewish Orthodox politicians who ran on the Democratic party ticket.The head of the Republican party currently is a very non-religious and non-church going man.
As far as I know, it is not the Democratic party platform to “force” society to “recognize” relationships that the Torah calls an abomination. Nor that babies “should” be killed at the “whim” of the mother. Furthermore, those 2 issues are not relevant in every election.
We should vote for the candidate that we feel is the best for our community. Fabric of society issues are one factor but there are many others. It is not black and white.I will skip 3 and 5 for now because you make very good points and those are very long discussions regarding the positive and negative outcomes.
There are outspoken and politically active Liberals that are working to destroy the moral fabric of society. But the term Liberal is not synonymous with Democrat.
There are also a lot of Liberals who are not working to destroy the moral fabric of society. They just want to be left alone and not discriminated against.The freedom to be a Frum Yid in America or to be completely non-religious and immoral in America are freedoms that are based on the constitution.
“The Roshei Hayeshiva, as far as I know, never said that it’s assur to vote Democrat”
Thanks.
“ they provide guidance on how a Frum Yid should vote in each election.”
Which Rosh Yeshiva provides guidance on how a Frum Yid should vote ? The only one who did this was HRH”G HaRav Avigdor Miller Zatsal.
The Moetzes and the Agudah have a long standing policy not to make such pronouncements.“Do you mind if I ask if you consult a Rov before voting Democrat?” I assume that you do not live in NY City or in Lakewood and were not around for the last election. In NY , the republican had no chance and in Lakewood there was a fierce controversy.
“The only one who did this was HRH”G HaRav Avigdor Miller Zatsal.“
And he extremely anti democrat and pro republican
The Republicans don’t help the poor by saying let them sink and swim. The democrats don’t force abortions or go after taiva.
jackk-
1) We seem to be going in circles over here. He lied under oath (regardless of how minimal it was) – it’s been proven and you agree to that. He committed perjury which is a misdemeanor (you agree that a misdemeanor is an impeachable offense). Until you show me where in the Constitution it says that a misdemeanor isn’t impeachable if it’s regarding a personal relationship and that the Senate has the discretion to decide if the House should have impeached him in the first place; I think this part of the conversation is over.
The Democrats made a mockery of the impeachment process as we discussed before (and you didn’t seem to disagree)- did you expect anyone to take them seriously when they started using it as a political weapon? A judge has the discretion to throw out a nuisance lawsuit which is similar to what that was. The Democrats tried to tarnish his name and waste time from getting productive things done- they knew from the start that there was a 0% chance that he’d be removed from office. You still didn’t answer my question as to whether or not you recall Nancy Pelosi giggling as she gave out impeachment souvenir pens.
He tried to dig up dirt on a political rival? Get real- Joe Biden announced the dirt on himself. He’s the one that publicly announced that he threatened to withhold $1 Billion in loan guarantees if the prosecutor investigating Burisma, the company his son was raking in millions from, wasn’t fired within 6 hours- and then he got fired! I would expect that the admission of corruption from a former vice president who wanted to run for president should have been investigated. However, when the president asked for his comments to be investigated- he gets impeached while the person trying to obstruct justice with his threats gets elected!
2) I agree with you regarding the way others here represent the Republican Party and they don’t always come across as educated. If you’re going to defend the Democratic Party so forcefully I do think you need to make it clear that you do have some issues with some of their views and moral values. This is the first time I recall you saying that you’re against redefining the word marriage or killing babies.
Whether or not we are arguing about the Torah, if you are a Frum Yid you shouldn’t be taking lightly the things that the Torah stresses very strongly. When you belittle the issue by saying that it’s just a piece of paper it makes everyone think that you’re taking it lightly. In general, I wouldn’t question whether you put on Tefillin every day but if you said about someone else “Who cares if he puts on Tefillin or not, it’s just some leather?” then I’d have reason to doubt if you put on Tefillin every day.
Similarly- you seemed to justify the issue of killing babies by comparing it to the Republicans not banning assault weapons. It makes one wonder if you’re really bothered by the slaughter. So to bring in the Shabbos example- you wouldn’t normally have to declare that you keep Shabbos but if you’d justify someone else driving on Shabbos because you saw a Christian driving on Sunday, his day of rest- you’d have to explicitly say that you do keep Shabbos.
3 & 5) Resolving the crime issues in the U.S. as well as the health care crisis is indeed a long discussion and beyond the scope of this thread but the points that I raised are much smaller. Instead of dismissing (or deferring) the topics can you just answer these “Yes” or “No” questions?
a) Do you agree that someone stealing less than $950 shouldn’t be arrested?
b) Do you agree that a person who’s arrested for a violent crime should be released without having to post cash bail?
c) Does not arresting or immediately releasing these criminals create an atmosphere of lawlessness?
d) Do you agree that the ACA caused serious financially harm many middle class families (e.g. the ones that had more than adequate health insurance beforehand and now spends over $10,000 more per year for equal or less coverage)?When I discussed voting Democrat earlier on I was referring to politicians that can make decisions that have a national effect (i.e. the president, senators, congress and to a lesser extent governors). In the past decade or so the parties have been split nearly in half and voting as a bloc (on major issues) so an individual senator can wield an enormous amount of power. If there’s a local politician running on the Democratic ticket whose sole agenda is to make life more pleasant for his constituents then go right ahead and vote for him.
There may be some politically active Liberals that are not trying to destroy the moral fabric of society but they don’t realize that by trying to keep everyone happy they are destroying the moral fabric of society. The people that think they’re going to be nice and let people marry whoever they want to are not intending to destroy the moral fabric of society but down the road- that’s what’s going to happen. Like I mentioned earlier on- some of these Liberals who thought they were being nice by allowing anyone to use the restroom that they feel more comfortable with now have to contend with perverts following their daughters into the girl’s locker room under the guise that they identify as a female.
I agree with your comment about the freedom to be a Frum Yid in America but my concern is that once they force their agenda on society our religious freedom will be restricted. They have the freedom to be immoral where it doesn’t affect anyone else- no one is trying to stop what they do behind closed doors- the fight is to stop them from forcing the rest of society from having to deal with their immorality. Would you want your Rov to be sued for not officiating at a redefined marriage. What’s going to stop that?
I didn’t say that the Rosh Hayeshivas made an announcement or told me how to vote- I said that they provided guidance. The guidance that I was referring to was when I asked who they were voting for. I only mentioned that they were members of the Moetzes so that you wouldn’t think the Rov I asked was my colleagues wife. (I specifically didn’t mention any names as it may lead to uncalled for comments.)
As a side point- some time ago there was a Frum politician running on the Democratic ticket and there were Kol Koreis, loudspeakers, comments on YWN and you name it all over the place against him. I went to daven with my Rosh Hayeshiva on election morning and asked him who he’s voting for. He mentioned that he is voting for that politician and invited me to come with him after davening and watch (the volunteers at the voting station didn’t let me into the booth to watch). I did vote for him.
Is there a reason why you didn’t give a straight answer when I asked if you have a Rov that you consult?
“ they provide guidance on how a Frum Yid should vote in each election.”
Which Rosh Yeshiva provides guidance on how a Frum Yid should vote ? The only one who did this was HRH”G HaRav Avigdor Miller Zatsal.
The Moetzes and the Agudah have a long standing policy not to make such pronouncements.
Incorrect. Most Rabbonim in the American Chareidi community will readily tell you who to vote for, especially if asked.
The Aguda/Moetzes does not publicly do so organizationally in order a) not to risk their non-profit status and b) not to antagonize Democrats (*cough*cough* since the large majority of the time they’d be endorsing Republicans, especially on the Federal level) who they need to interact with and seek assistance from if they win office.
ujm,
A) So we should just pick a Rav and call them before an election? Almost like pick a Posek to call.
B) You are correct that we need to interact with Democrats and that is a reason to not pigeonhole ourselves as a community.
It is reported today that Dems are happy with a slight bump in Biden’s numbers and he himself is telling them that they might keep the house – playing Comm-in-Chief at the expense of Ukraine…
Unfortunately, this means that further actions will be in part based on the need to look good, so there will be again long-winded explanations why it is so wise not to do X and Y…
I don’t think this war will go on more than 3 months (but I have been wrong in the past) and we still will have hyper inflation
CA,
Republicans do not have any idea of how to save us from inflation. Historically , they have never saved us from inflation and always brought about a recession.
Dr Pepper,
I am working on answering you. But meanwhile, I want to reiterate that I have no qualms with any Jew that prefers always voting Republican if they believe that, al pi haTorah, they are the best for America.
However, the following statements are the ones that I don’t know what the source is in the Torah.
1) Democrats Love Crime
2) “Why are democrats okay with this?” Because they need the votes of the criminals and those who support them. Because BLM
3) I won’t vote for any because the system is rigged. (Parroting Trumps claims that the election was stolen.)
4) Well it is true that Biden and his propaganda left wing news machine are using this ( The Russian Invasion of Ukraine) to distract us from the terrible job he’s doing.5) This fake president approaches every issue the wrong way. Like Carter, terrible on foreign policy, high gas prices, short supply. The guy is clueless Joe.
6) Biden Admin To Fund Crack Pipe Distribution To Advance ‘Racial Equity’
7) Anything the Democrats Touch Gets Worse . But hey he doesn’t send mean tweets8) Democrats have Egg on their Faces
9) Joe Biden is mind-bogglingly incompetent. What else is new?
10) Biden can’t stand up the extremists in his own party; he’s weak. Doesn’t carry anything.11) Can Someone Help Me Understand Why Biden’s Approval Rating is so Low?
We are having inflation, Russians are having hyper-inflation, count your brochos.
(but I have been wrong in the past)
Are you sure?
The war in Ukraine has been going on non-stop since 2014. That’s 8 years, already.
jackk-
Without going through each of your points I do feel that some posters (on both sides) are pretty uneducated in their political views and just write the first thing that comes to their mind regardless of how ridiculous it sounds.
For example- I do believe that there were abnormalities in the 2020 elections but (from what I know) I don’t think there’s enough evidence to prove or disprove it. I cringe when Republicans claim that the voting machines were rigged and I similarly cringe when the Democrats say that the ballots were hand counted and the numbers match (this only proves that the numbers were counted properly the first time- not that every vote was legitimate).
Anyway- I’m not expecting to hear back from you before שבת so have a גוט שבת.
“Republicans do not have any idea of how to save us from inflation. Historically , they have never saved us from inflation and always brought about a recession.“
There wasn’t inflation during carter and it didn’t stop with Reagan?
I’m asking because I wasn’t alive then
coffee, jackk would say that D-s would always save us from a depression – just give them enough years and they eventually will (like FDR and Obama, the latter tried to spend 6 years growing slooowly out of recession), or by saying that things would have been worse otherwise (same Obama claiming that 2008 was “great recession” to justify his approach.
Of course, evaluating policy effect is very complicated. Maybe the best one would be to compare educated forecasts with later performance. In recent history, Biden was expected to do even better than Trump, no inflation risk, then temporary inflation, then inflation. Trump was expected to ruin economy and he did not. Obama was expected to improve economy quickly – and he took 6 years.
> I’m asking because I wasn’t alive then
coffee, come on, man, I saw you holding NY Times with “Dewey defeats Truman” headline
I hope you’re doing well.
I was trying to have an open and honest back and forth dialogue where we could respectfully share our point of view. It’s hard to understand the tone of one’s comments without having the luxury of seeing their facial expressions. I therefore read and reread my posts before submitting them to make sure nothing even had the appearance of being hurtful.
If something did slip by and you felt personally offended, cornered or disrespected please let me reassure you that it was not my intention.
Wishing you a גוט שבת and a גוט חודש.
“So you voted for Biden” – and proud of it !
I voted trump to keep Hilary out of office so it’s not hard to understand some people voting for Biden. Can’t for the life of me figure out how they can still think it’s going well. Perhaps it’s just that people are that incapable of admitting they were wrong about something.
Dr Pepper,
I am not offended and I hope you had a Gut Yom Tov.
I have learned the hard way, from experience on the YWN coffee room, that I do not want to be in a debate. It takes too much time and effort on my part. It convinces nobody and resolves nothing. It causes Bein Adam Lachavero issues. Very serious ones. There are human beings behind every post, no matter how anonymous they are. But since they are anonymous and posting on a public website , it is easy to write a quick and snide humiliating remark. After a few serious back and forth’s in a debate, the shaming comments are almost inevitable.Also, some posters are not careful about respecting others .
We are focused now during the sefira on the deaths of 12,000 Chavrusas , students of Rabbi Akiva for an infinitesimal lack of Bein Adam Lachavero.
I made a mistake when I started a back and forth with you on a different post and I am sure you expected a response. This is why I stopped in the middle, although I have the response ready.
I am sure if we met is shul , we would stay up all night together on Chag Hashevuos learning Torah and ignoring politics and current events.I post because I want my view which is usually different than other posters, to have a part in the CR.
Some posts I am very passionate about (Putin\Russia and war in Ukraine) and others I couldn’t care less (Musk and Twitter). It is usually impossible to tell from what I write. Some I understand are just my opinion (Like, whether a person is fitting to be a judge or SCOTUS). Some I get wrong. (Like, whether Putin was pulling back from invading Ukraine.) So I feel no need to defend my posts. I know that others have a different opinion than me. So be it. I don’t need to unnecessarily debate every issue. As I wrote above, it does not convince anybody and resolves nothing. When I post, I made my opinion heard.I also post when YWN spreads fake news. YWN and commenters are allowed their opinions but not facts.
jackk – i kinda doubt you read my posts anymore but just in case …
Thank you for the above post. I would never have read your posts that way but will try much harder to apply that understanding. I remember you saying something shorter along those lines and I really respected you for it, but I will try to have a different perspective.Syag,
Due to time constraints, I don’t read all the posts in the YWN.
I know that we have many differences of opinions. Some of them we have discussed in the past. Recently, in this thread , we got dragged into a difference of opinion that unintentionally went too far. I try to restrict myself (although I fail) to not read posts from people that I know I disagree with. There are many of them.
You have your opinion and I have mine.
I voted for Biden and I am not going to debate it. You hope that Republican’s take back the senate and house in November. So be it.> I voted for Biden and I am not going to debate it.
silence is an admission of a loss in our culture … very admirable way to do it.
I saw on another educated board, a TDS sufferer confronted with Trump’s quote forewarning Europeans about dangers of pro-Russian policies. Having nothing else to say, he went into a pretzel – he only said it because Bolton told him to say that. Human ability to stand on heir position is amazing. I am proud of jackk who has more integrity than that.
You’re putting me in a difficult position over here.
On the one hand I try extremely hard to choose my words carefully to ensure that I’m not attacking another poster personally- rather I’m disagreeing with their opinion. On the other hand- I’d like to be able to respectfully express my honest opinion without without having to worry that I’m offending someone.
Without getting into my background too much please just trust me that I’m having a hard time understanding how a Frum Yid can support the Democratic Party. (I respect that you’re probably wondering how a Frum Yid can support the Republican Party.) My only intent in conversing with you on this topic was to have a dialogue back and forth so that I can see where you’re coming from. For obvious reasons this is not a conversation I can have with a friend or neighbor and I felt that the Coffee Room would be a great place. You seemed to be a great candidate for a conversation as you have strong views, you’re carefully thought out and your replies are respectful. I didn’t think I’d get you to switch parties and I didn’t think that you’d get me to switch parties- I just wanted to have a respectful dialogue so I can see your point of view. If this turned into a debate that was definitely not my intent and I apologize.
The name calling and snide remarks (from both sides) is regrettable and does nothing to help the conversation. With that being said- and with me reiterating that those comments are wrong- if you post on a public forum you have to be ready to accept what ever is thrown at you and not let it ruin your day.
There are some guidelines that posters could follow to make the Coffee Room more pleasant when discussing hot topics as my most recent posts to you point out:
1. If you post an opinion- please give a little explanation as to why you feel that way. (E.g. When you posted that Americans will suffer from Elon Musk purchasing Twitter.)
2. If you post a fact that’s in dispute- please either provide a source or clarify / correct the fact. (E.g. When you posted that Elon Musk didn’t pay taxes on the $239 Billion he made during COVID and I pointed out that CNN claims that he’ll be paying $11 Billion in Federal Taxes.)
3. If you post a fact- please state the entire fact. (E.g. I felt it was misleading to state that the ABA rated a judge as non-qualified without stating why she was rated that, or to make it seem like the judge used her lack of medical expertise to make a decision regarding wearing masks on a plane.) In my most recent post I was not attacking you personally- I was attacking your post. The tone in the post was stronger than it usually is because I felt you were intentionally trying to mislead people. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Again- it was never my intention to offend you or any other poster in any way. If I did I apologize and sincerely regret it.
Wishing you a beautiful Shabbos.
Avi
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