November 21, 2010 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #593142
Is it possible to find a solid frum working guy with more yeshivishe hashkafas(no TV/movies) in today’s predominately learning world? Where are they? Which shadchanim deal with them? There are many girls looking for them and they all ended up with learning guys is it because there aren’t any who are frum enough????November 21, 2010 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #712545
Yes, they (solid frum working guys, no TV etc.) are all over the place. Boro Park, Flatbush, Williamsburgh, etc.November 21, 2010 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #712546
They exist but there aren’t many of them. Its hard to be shtark in the working world many distractions and it doesn’t leave that much time for Torah. Well I guess that depends also on if you work 9-5 or have a longer work day and have to commute…bottom line, there are some shtark working boys or guys who are willing to go to work after marriage or after a year of Kollel.
Look into Yeshivas like Torah Vodaas, Chaim Berlin, Chofetz Chaim, Rabbi Bergers in Lakewood…November 21, 2010 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #712547☕️coffee addictParticipant
I don’t think so,
If you’re really looking for someone, their in aisle 11 right next to the girls with the rich fathers that have excellent middos and that are rated for looks at 10
in essence if their there they are hard to come byNovember 21, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #712548
BTW: Are guys told to stay in learning for shidduchim…I’ve been hearing that a lot…is it true?
Many great very frum girls want these solid yeshiveshe working/college guys but when they speak to shadchanim the answer is always.
“really???..a working guy…but don’t you want someone who knows how to learn? someone whos frum??????”
YES obviously we’re frum girls but there has to be a guys who agree that you can do both!!!!!
what did pple in our parents time do? many went to college,professionals etc.
now their kids are all learning… it’s a trend
but are there any parents who are telling their kids to work?November 21, 2010 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #712549tunabeigel123Member
Where i live there are a couple of these guys (not chassidish) they get up normal time of day, go to work a full day, then they have a shiur / chavrusah at night, all got normal hashkofas and the ones who so far got married got top shidduchim.November 21, 2010 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #712550justsmile613Participant
There are many many normal FRUM YESHIVISH WORKING boys who have the RIGHT Hashkafos. These people are just as good as learning boys.November 21, 2010 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #712551deiyezoogerMember
Many frum guys that are not cut out to learn full time will still do so because going to work will hurt there chance for a good shiduch. There is also no support network for frum young men in the workforce.November 21, 2010 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #712552
This is how the system works:
A guy might very much want to work. He’s told that he won’t get a good, frum girl if he does. He therefore stays in learning. He then decides to say he’ll learn for a bit after he gets married and go on to work. “No,” he’s told. He won’t get a good, frum girl like that either. So he claims that he wants to learn forever.
Take it from the girls side:
A girl wants a working boy but knows that those who say they’re working probably don’t have the hashkafos they do. They therefore decide to say they want the few years learning but soon realize that that approach doesn’t work either. They conclude that they want the forever learners.
Does the boy want to learn forever? No.
Does the girl want a forever learner? No.
But in order to get the boy/girl they each want, they have to play by the system and hopefully land up with what they actually want.
Granted, it would be much easier if people can actually say what they are and want. It’s a messed up system but this is the game to play.November 21, 2010 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #712553
Well, looking at it as a “game to play”, puts one on the pathway to divorce.November 21, 2010 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #712554oomisParticipant
There are many many normal FRUM YESHIVISH WORKING boys who have the RIGHT Hashkafos. These people are just as good as learning boys.
IMHO, I believe in many respects they are even better – because they are doing both. They learn every day, and they bring home a parnassah, as well. They are machshiv Torah and machshiv their achrayus to their families at the same time.November 21, 2010 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #712555
so the rumors are true… I thought so…. I went to a very mainstream BY high school and seminary and when I started dating I said I wanted someone in school or with plans… everyone said oh! you wont get someone frum enough…now dating for a while I see it’s true..unfortunatly, its a messed up system noone says they want to work and the girls end up with learners…basically all my friends in lakewood and EY agree with me but they like you said play the game!!!November 21, 2010 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #712556ennycMember
I know of two guys like that. Working boys with solid hashkafah and excellent middos who learn everyday…….. They married my daughters.November 21, 2010 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #712557yitzy99Member
“One size fits all,” may be convenient when buying a hat but for living a life, I don’t know.
Young ladies, suppose you were coerced from childhood into one career path whether you were suited for it or not. You were told that straying off this career path would make marriage in your community difficult. How would you feel? Do you think finding a rich father -in-law would recompense for 8-10 hours at a career which you were unsuited for and found tedious? Isn’t that what many boys have to deal with?November 21, 2010 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #712558myfriendMember
Most Chareidi yungerleit are working and not learning full-time. So this business that almost everyone goes into long time learning is a bunch of hogwash.November 21, 2010 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #712559CHAIMBERLIN702Member
I am always amazed when people talk about a bochur , or a young married man, working for a living. The part I find amazing is that there is this looking down on the guy who works. I’m talking about a person who works fulltime to support himself or a family, and has a seder of serious learning when off from work. Our society needs people working, one-to support himself and his family,and two- this person by working is then capable of giving tzedekah for worthy causes. There is no shame in working for a living and not having to depend on others for food and shelter. I would think it should be the norm as it had been for generations.November 21, 2010 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #712560pooky1Member
I think a boy who get up early to learn and make minyan then work and possibly go to a shiur after work is in many ways “frumer”(in general) than the boys who “sit and learn” all day, for a few years, while their parents support them. Its harder to make and take the time to learn when you work…November 21, 2010 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #712561charliehallParticipant
YU has a lot of right wing guys who don’t plan to learn forever. And with their college degrees they can do pretty well, career wise.November 22, 2010 12:00 am at 12:00 am #712562
Your thread is full of exaggerations and extremes. There are very few guys today who say “lifetime learning” and very few girls who want that. Anyone who says lifetime is usually cut out for that. The problem is the 3 year, 5 year guys. Many of them are full of it. Specifically 3 years. If a guy wants to learn 3 years it likely means he wants to learn one year and take it easy for 2.
Girls, as a guy I will tell you, there’s a lot of guys in Yeshivah who don’t belong there.
Do a lot of research. If you want the goods on a guy call his dira mates from Eretz Yisroel, speak to ALL of them especially the ones he was with his last zman in Israel. Also speak to his roomates in BMG don’t be afraid to “grill” them ask direct questions. You may be wondering why I would offer this info, the reason is because I am sickened and fed up with the hypocrisy in our Yeshivos and it ticks me off that bad guys who are still bad have the chutzpah to pass themselves off as learners and date good girls. One of the reasons why there are so many broken engagements and divorces is because people usually the girl doesn’t find out the truth until after the engagement or the marriage. You have to do thorough info on the guys.November 22, 2010 12:18 am at 12:18 am #712563yeshivaguy1Participant
Keep in mind that in order to conform in the yeshiva world you can’t go out and work. You are basically asking for a guy who learned at least up to three years bais medrash (to be a ben torah) but then tore himself out of that world to go work. How many guys who are not cut out actually last that long and if he did pull himself out after that point you have to wonder why. It’s not common for a good bochur in yeshiva to leave and go work. Now that is not saying that there aren’t good ehrlich boys working but in my experience they have usually been through alot as teenagers and may not be suitable for that innocent bais yaakov girl who just wants to perform her proper role in life (take care of her kids). Even the rare good bochurim who go to college/work I have yet to meet one who doesn’t watch movies at least occasionally. If it were to become more accepted for bachurim not to only “learn fulltime” there might be many healthy well adjusted bochurim who would sit down and make rational decision to go to work/college. These are the bochurim everyone is looking for.November 22, 2010 12:45 am at 12:45 am #712564frumladygitMember
My husband believes its a mans job to support the family and to work. He feels that if a charedi yingerman is willing to WORK they deserve a medal! This is because its’ not an adhered to hashkafa, which is sorely overlooked, in exchange for accepting tzedkah unfortunately.
He detests boys who use “learning” as an excuse to be lazy. He always says if the boy is a “real” learner then there will be a line up to FULLY SUPPORT him, instead of at the wifes’ expense.
In yiddishkeit throughout Europe there has always been classes. Why are people afraid/ashamed now to be amongst the working class? DOesn’t fulfilling the mitzvah of earning your bread by the sweat of your brow deserve some respect? In other words, working is commendable. Emunah, and avodas Hashem are important but you do not have to sit in a Yeshiva to be important to Hashem. There were many stories of simple unlearned Jews who kept shabbos with faith.
Why are ppl afraid to be “less than the best”?
THe “low class” i cannot tolerate however has nothing to do with workers or learners categories. Rather its the late night hangouters, the “boys” who have a wife at home with a few babies, but they do not go home as a rule, rather they sit together smeezing until 11 or 12 about where to get the best sale on the next bluetooth in very loud and obnoxious voices in a Grocerystore.November 22, 2010 12:55 am at 12:55 am #712565hereswhatisayMember
I too am looking for a solid guy whose working. Where are they all hiding? Who are the shadchanim that know the working population. They must be hiding under some rock someplace worried that no girls want them because majority of girls are “looking” for “learning” boys. Anyone help?November 22, 2010 1:17 am at 1:17 am #712566
I don’t know what extremes I went to. I agree with your post 100%. Guys can be in yeshiva, stay in the coffee room all day, and they’ll be known as a “learner.” Like you said, I don’t think the slackers deserve the good girls who want serious learners.
From what I’ve dealt with,
Forever learning = long term learning (you’re right WIY, not no learning – sorry)
Long term learning = 5 years learning
5 years learning – 2 years learning
2 years learning – work the day after sheva brachos.
I can be totally off and I’m sure some guy will come and say he means it when he says 5 years learning but this is my experience.November 22, 2010 2:12 am at 2:12 am #712567
Would it be a problem asking the guy on the date how many years he realistically wants to learn?November 22, 2010 3:06 am at 3:06 am #712568
I would – but nowhere near a 1st date. What would your reaction be if someone asked you?November 22, 2010 4:46 am at 4:46 am #712570eclipseMember
the fellow i was married to learned for many,many years with my full consent(and hard work).he was severely abusive. ..i don’t think achzorius is the average midda of “the full-time learner” but it teaches an important lesson.we both wanted the learning(it turned out not for the same reasons,alas).we scrimped and asked neither side for financial support.BUT WITHOUT STRONG BEIN ADAM L’CHAVEIRO -even if you do everything else 100% right… it’s going to unravel.if my daughters want a guy who doesn’t become his own da’as torah,that’s fine with me.an arrogant ben torah is an OXYMORON.(did i hear you say moron?tsk,tsk!)November 22, 2010 5:46 am at 5:46 am #712571
I’m happy for you that you found your husband and that you are (seemingly) happy. That being said.
“I can stand all those people that sit and learn all day and then complain they are too tired to take care of their wives and children and have to go to sleep. I also cant stand it when they are learning all day to do this mitzvah and that one and they treat their wives like garbage or even worse!”
I’m not sure why you feel the need to put down others and hurl baseless and meaningless accusations. Does this make you feel better about your husband, about your marriage?
I for one am not looking for a “long term learner”, but I dont go around putting down the Kollel life style either. If its not for you then its not for you.November 22, 2010 6:02 am at 6:02 am #712572
To whom it may concern…. I learn in yeshiva, go to college, am going for smicha at the same time…. I believe that everyone has rights… The guy who wants to learn who is a mentch gam zu litova!!!The guy who works gam zu litova….
The point is not to bash but to become cognizant that everyone boy/girl needs to have a strond foundation to build a house (its called hishtadlus) you lean in yeshiva and kollel with a goal in mind.and/OR you go to college to get a profession.. Many times over the years i dated people who ask about my profession over my middos AND That is very scary…. The truth is If you have decent middos, balanced, and have a common sense…. You could be ok…. The problems is we have forgotten whats important… You need torah and you need parnassa…. You need common sense to pay bills…(ie.. hishtadlus….)November 22, 2010 6:12 am at 6:12 am #712573
Also, there are so many amazing working guys… Their middos dedication and THAT should not be taken for granted….
I know guys who learn and work… And people tell them that their not shtarch!!! The truth is they are very shtarch… any one that works and learns should be treated With dignity and respect… NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR profession but rather their unique sacrifice of not being able to learn the entire day….
I am not one to talk… since i am just one person…. But i have respect for everyone The kollel guy and the working guy … Each according to their individual story… i was on a date and the main focus was parnassah… not once was middos spoken about on the date the girl said wow your parnassah after school… WOW you could make alot of money…. I am anit college…yet i did go to college… I would rather just learn all day and night…. But there are sad realities i cant learn and say nothing else matters because when you get married EVERYTHING MATTERS… Responsibilities are present and thats life get a job…
Sorry for my vent i hope it made sense ….November 22, 2010 6:25 am at 6:25 am #712574
I am not saying forget betachon i am saying everyone has a responsibility to pay for things… i have so many friends going to college after learning in kollel…. HAkol beyday shamayim chuts meyiras shamayim…
And the best part about this vent is that i am an older single giving this advice …so i have seen may married friends through their struggles…. i hope to see less pain…i hope to see less of yidden without a means to pay for bills. since its not possible to figure out who i am… let me tell you i have helped many yidden through their struggles i have seen much pain when a husband and wife have no one to turn to for help wheither to get a job or other help… and i tell you its all min hashamayim but you gotta do your histadlus…. i am sorry if i offend or have stated inaccurate info…
may we share have only simchas gezunt and much hatzlacha….November 22, 2010 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #712575
i didn’t want this thread to become a bashing kollel guys and pro working guys.
I just wanted to find out if rumors are true that when you really want a good sincere yeshivshe guy he cant be working or in college??? does that make sense? as I mentioned b4 all my friends married learning kolllel guys and I always said youll see I’ll find that solid frum working guy…..I wonder if they exist
aside from the consequences of marrying leanring guys not every girl wants thst life–not as a bad thing— she might have grown up in a very frum home where her father was a professional and she wants the same type of idea….any help on if these boys exist…I heard Ner Yisroel, Chofetz Chaim, Torah VDaas…the boys have options of schoolingNovember 22, 2010 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #712578
If thats the way you fell then thats the way you feel.
I just feel sorry for you that you have closed yourself off completely to new ideas and concepts.
As they say…November 22, 2010 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #712579justin2Member
Ner Israel Rabbinical College.November 22, 2010 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #712580
Wisewoman is right. Just because someone is in Kollel doesn’t mean he is a mentch!
Someone once contacted the Steipler Gaon, Zt”l, Rav Yisrael Yaakov Kanievsky, to inquire about a bachur for a shidduch for his daugh The Steipler said that that boy is a very big masmid, and that the bo Rebbe should be contacted to check him out in terms of his middos. The father was confused. “Didn’t the Steipler just tell me that this bo a big masmid!? How can it be that the boy doesn’t have good middo he learns all day and night?” The Steipler answered him simply, “all bachur has to do is sit with a Sefer and a Shtender, neither of which talk back to him or ask him to take out the garbage.”November 22, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #712581
There are tons of good reasons to learn in Kollel — like the effect it has on your home, on your Mitzvah performance, on your personality, on your children — all of which are excellent reasons. But the main reason is, that our goal in this world is to go higher and higher. And there is no better way to go higher than to learn. Nothing even close.
The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy. We have to be there, granted; we have to make a living for our families – which is a Mitzvah in itself – but we need to realize the price we pay for those necessities.
There is a story in the mussar seforim, about a man who had a premonition that next year’s crops would be poisoned, so that whoever would eat it would become insane. He didn’t; know what to do — if he would eat the crops he’d become insane, but if he does not eat the crops, the whole world will be insane except him, and being the only normal one in an insane world is just as bad as being insane. Warning people about the crops is useless because nobody would believe him anyway. So he went ot the village wise man who told him, “You have to eat the crops. You’re right – that being the only normal person in an insane world is as bad as being insane. Plus it will drive you crazy anyway. But here’s what you do:
“Tie a string around your finger to remind yourself constantly that you have eaten from the crops and you are insane. Being insane is bad, but in this case you have no choice. However, for the rest of the world, much worse than being insane is the fact that they will think they’re normal. Being insane is bad, but being insane thinking you’re normal is much worse. So tie a string around your finger which will always remind you that you are insane. You’ll be insane, but at least you’ll know you’re insane. Everyone else will think they’re normal, so you’ll be much much better off than the rest.”
The nimshal is, there’s nothing wrong with going to work, and often it may even be a necessity. But to spend the gift of life that Hashem gives us for such a short time in this world selling cars or programming computers or whatever we need to do to make a living, is insane. It may be necessary, but it’s still insane. We have so little to live in this world (we should all live to 120 years, but compared to eternity in the afterlife, 120 years is nothing), and its our only chance to collect Torah and Mitzvos — how crazy is it to busy ourselves with other things??
But we have to? OK, we have to. At the very least, let us realize that we do so out of necessity and that making a living necessitates our leading a life which, when you consider what we’re on this world for and the opportunities that exist ONLY while we are here, is insane. Let’s at least realize that.
For those who learn all day, they may not need to tie strings around their fingers, but, unfortunately, in the materialistic and confused world that we live in, they need posts such as this one, to constantly remind them that their lives are very, very normal, sane, and healthy.
The hardships of Kolel are nothing compared to the pleasures. Like Rav Aharon ZT’L said – that those who support learning might get Olam Habah like those who learn, but they surely don’t get Olam Hazeh like them. Money isn’t everything – even in Olam Hazeh.November 22, 2010 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #712582gavra_at_workParticipant
The hardships of Kolel are nothing compared to the pleasures. Like Rav Aharon ZT’L said – that those who support learning might get Olam Habah like those who learn, but they surely don’t get Olam Hazeh like them. Money isn’t everything – even in Olam Hazeh.
100%! The easiest way to get through life is to remain in Kollel.November 22, 2010 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #712583
I never commented on Middos one way or the other. Middos arent mutually exclusive to Kollel or the workplace, they are to the individual, and that is where unfortunately the lines are being blurred.
You cannot hold an institution accountable for the individual and vice versa. If you dont agree with the concept of “Kollel” thats fine, but why make assumptions about everyone IN Kollel because you dont agree with their way of life?
Why do you think the prejudice stands that there arent any “Good Solid Frum Working Boys”? Because those in Kollel, assume (just like you) XY & Z about Working Boys. You dont like it, so why do it to others?November 22, 2010 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #712584pet peeveMember
i hear your point. just one question: why is it not ok for “good Jewish boy” (to be in the workforce) but it IS ok for “good Jewish father in law”? unless your saying its not ok for him either?November 22, 2010 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #712585gavra_at_workParticipant
good Jewish father in law already started paying tuition and his kids will be kicked out if he stops.
Now that is daughter is married, he needs to work to support the couple (as he was forced to sign), or his daughter will get divorced.
What is the question?November 22, 2010 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #712586
I dont “assume” anything about anyone. I was in Yeshivah, I know what goes on there I know what goes on in Kollel. As a guy, I can tell you the reality. A girl has a much harder time knowing what goes on unless she has a bunch of brothers or cousins who tell it to her the way it is.
I respect people in Kollel but I firmly believe the system is abused and lends itself to abuse. Kollel is a luxury for many today not a sacrifice. Kollel should be a sacrifice. If the kollel families are living on the same standards as the non kollel families, something is wrong.
“You cannot hold an institution accountable for the individual and vice versa.”
Yes you can! Hello, a Yeshivah is supposed to mold its Bachurim and if it fails to do that then it can be held responsible. It obviously depends how many boys fail to be molded. But if one sees that a significant # of guys from x yeshivah are not “mentchen” thats a sign the yeshivah has failed to integrate the messages of mussar into the boys Torah learning in a meaningful way.November 22, 2010 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #712587myfriendMember
WIY: There is ZERO basis to assert a Kollel yungerman MUST “sacrifice” if he doesn’t have to.
gavra: Huh? Are you kidding? That is no basis for divorce!! If a F-I-L doesn’t want to continue support, there is nothing forcing him — other than his word of honor, if he promised that. But barring any pre-marital commitments he made, he is under no obligation. He is doing it out of his own free will and the goodness of his heart.November 22, 2010 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #712588
What about the mishnah in avos about pas bamelech and mayim bimsureh tishteh?
What about Adam Ki Yomus Beohel “You have to be maymis atzmo” for Torah?
What about Rabbi Yehuda Hanassi who was the wealthiest Jew of his generation who on his death bed lifted his hands as testimony to Shomayim that “In my entire life with these hands I have not taken anything for myself, only for You Hashem?”
Almost all of the great people of previous generations had little or no money. Todays Gedolim as well. Ever vist Rav Shteinman or Rav Chaim Kanievski?
I am not saying a Kollel couple should live in a hut and have no car. But Bederech Klal greatness in Torah is usually found by those who shun materialism.November 22, 2010 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #712589
“I firmly believe the system is abused and lends itself to abuse.”
Then hate the game not the players… thats what I do 😀November 22, 2010 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #712590WiseWomanMember
“I just feel sorry for you that you have closed yourself off completely to new ideas and concepts. “
you feel sorry for me???? please dont!
You want to know how a boy will be a mentch? Watch how he treats his mother. Watch how he helps an old lady cross the street. Watch how he takes the shirt off his back to give it to a cold man. THAT IS A MENTCH!
EDITEDNovember 22, 2010 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #712591
“You want to know how a boy will be a mentch? Watch how he treats his mother. Watch how he helps an old lady cross the street. Watch how he takes the shirt off his back to give it to a cold man. THAT IS A MENTCH!”
Are you saying that not one Learning Boy is capable of this?November 23, 2010 12:21 am at 12:21 am #712594
“WiseWoman”: I’m sure the moderators had very good reason to delete most of your anti-Torah rant.November 23, 2010 12:31 am at 12:31 am #712595
Whoa, you’re sure not sounding to wise. There are PLENTY of learning boys with stellar middos. The ones who are real do help despite their seriousness in learning. I think you’ve come in contact with a select few who don’t portray the others in a good light but these are not the majority of learning guys.November 23, 2010 12:45 am at 12:45 am #712596bezalelParticipant
Now that is daughter is married, he needs to work to support the couple (as he was forced to sign), or his daughter will get divorced.
She’s probably better off without the bum.November 23, 2010 12:46 am at 12:46 am #712597
That can be as a result to a number of factors:
A. You are so closed off to the idea of a learner being a mentsch you refuse to see it even if it hit you square in the face.
B. You live somewhere that has NO learners so you are not exposed to them.
C. You are so focused on making a point, you have resorted to making outrageous and irrational not to mention false, claims against a large group of people.November 23, 2010 1:51 am at 1:51 am #712598
“I firmly believe the system is abused and lends itself to abuse.”
Then hate the game not the players… thats what I do :D”
I try not to hate anyone unless they deserve it, like if someone is a piece of trash and he abuses his wife and kids, heck yeah Id hate him!
If a guy is self centered and is only in learning so he can marry a rich girl and get the big bucks, I dont hate him, I pity him because he is a pathetic human being and will not be a great husband (until his wife beats some sense into him lol).
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.