Something I noticed a lot of people do because they probably dont know this

Home Forums Tefilla / Davening Something I noticed a lot of people do because they probably dont know this

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 101 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1033306

    hello99
    Member

    #1033307

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ushmartem should only apply, in a Halachic sense at least, to physical harm and not mystical harm. I think I have a source for that but can’t recall what it is. I’ll look.

    #1033308

    hello99
    Member
    #1033309

    hello99
    Member

    Also, Sam; I’m a little skeptical about your “sources”

    Sam2

    Member

    The source for the Rosh will have to wait about a week until i get back to my notebook.

    Posted 6 days ago

    did you find the notebook?

    Posted 7 months ago!!!!!

    You also never found the Yabia Omer that is more lenient than the Tzitz Eliezer on abortions

    #1033310

    Sam2
    Participant

    I know. I have a lot of trouble finding old sources. I get them eventually. My notebook unfortunately disappeared at some point, so I’m left with a lot of imprecise sources. I can’t memorize anything, much as I would love to.

    Meat and fish are assumed to be Assur because it’s a Sakanas Nefashos. It’s in the Siman in Shulchan Aruch of things that are dangerous. Yes, a Gemara says it’s Kasheh L’Davar Acher but the general assumption is that it’s a physical danger also. And the Yabia Omer was the same one we each had.

    I was just assuming that most abortions are done by chemical and not physical means. If that’s not true then I admitted I may have been incorrect.

    #1033311

    hello99
    Member

    sam: so the Gemara says it is tzora’as, but you assume it is physical sakana?

    Anyways, I’m waiting for a source to exclude spiritual sakana

    #1033313

    oomis
    Participant

    regarding the cutting of nails – it is still assur to cut them in order,if the manicurist is not a Jew? Non-Jews do not do taharas on a meis. Same question regarding mani-pedis done on the same day. Tie nails are not generally cut during a pedicure, but rather, filed. (Actually, the same typically holds true for a manicure). And what about women going to the Mikvah? Part of their hachanos is the cutting of nails. So unless they do their feet the previous day, it would seem that nails are being cut at both ends on the same day.

    #1033314

    Sam2
    Participant

    Oomis: Mikvah is the exception where people cut off both on the same day. It is only a (very strong) Minhag based on Kaballah/Ayin Harah and therefore won’t override actual Halachos. Saying it’s “Assur” is probably the wrong word, actually.

    #1033315

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    oomis

    I’m not a posek, but I would imagine that the practice of not cutting nails in order has more to do with the one getting them cut and not the manicurist.

    Women going to the mikvah do try to cut one set of nails on the previous day. For those who don’t cut nails on Thursdays in general, they cut the day prior. However, if one forgets altogether, then better to cut the same day, although it’s not optimal.

    As an aside, one should remember to wash netilas yadayim after cutting nails (or going to the barber)

    As always, consult your LOR

    #1033316

    squeak
    Participant

    Hello99, were you once here as PM? If so, WB.

    #1033317

    hello99
    Member

    squeak: yes, thanks

    #1033318

    Obaminator
    Member

    hello: Why the change? You were much more genteel as PM. 🙂

    Your 10th is 2 and half k”h. Any new additions?

    squeak: What clued you in?

    #1033319

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hello: See the Rambam Ch. 12 of Rotzeach Ushmirash Nefesh that touching things that a Metzora has touched is considered unhealthy. Presumably there is also a physical danger involved in Tzara’as.

    Also, if it was really a Sakana issue then don’t Poskim assume that the Shiur is not Shishim but rather at whatever level it’s still unhealthy? I know it’s a Machlokes Acharonim so perhaps everyone you quoted holds that things which are Assur due to danger is still Batel B’shishim. I would be interested to see though if anyone who usually holds that Sakanta Chamira Me’issura applies to Bitul also yet was still on your list of those who require Shishim by meat and fish.

    #1033320

    RabbiRabin
    Member

    old man i dont know if this was stated but there is a very famous video of MAran hAgaon Rav Yosef Shalom Eliashiv sitting and learning in th midst of his learning he interlocks his fingers so i thnk you are in good company and everyone can calm down

    #1033321

    Peacemaker
    Member

    RR: That photo does not clearly show Rav Elyashev doing that.

    #1033322

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    And so now we can decide to interlock our fingers no more.

    May this be the most difficult decision you’ll ever have to make.

    #1033323

    hello99
    Member

    Sam: “Presumably there is also a physical danger involved in Tzara’as.”

    That’s a presumption, I’m awaiting a source or proof. Admittedly my proof to the contrary may not be iron-clad,but I have yet to see any indication supporting your position. the encyclopedic work Shmiras HaGuf v’HaNefesh discusses atlengtht various opinions regarding the severity and source of the prohibition of incurring danger. He makes no distinction between physical and spiritual danger. Of course his omission is not a conclusive proof either.

    I think that at Shishim it is considered to not be physically present, as the Rambam refers to it as ????? ????? ??????. This opinion would seem to be mutually exclusive to applying Sakanta Chamura mi’Issura to 60x.

    #1033324

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hello: The Sh’arim Metzuyanim Behalach (on the Kitzur) brings a whole list of Poskim that say that by Sakanah we should be Machmir for more than Shishim (he also brings those who say that Shishim is enough). It would be very irresponsible (at best) to say that a potent poison could be Btel B’Shishim, wouldn’t it? We already have a concept of Avida L’taama so we know that some things can be not Batel even though there is less than Shishim. I don’t see why something dangerous would be any different.

    #1033325

    hello99
    Member

    Sam: you can take of it up with the whole list Poskim who are lenient for 60. I did not support one side or the other, just attempted to explain the lenient opinion

    #1033326

    hello99
    Member

    Sam: Also, Avida l’Ta’ama is d’Rabannan. Min HaTorah 1/60 doesn’t exist

    #1033327

    Sam2
    Participant

    That’s only if you assume Ta’am K’ikar is Mid’rabannan.

    #1033328

    hello99
    Member
    #1033329

    ✡onegoal™
    Participant

    I do not cross my fingers because in ninth grade my rebbe told me you should not because one hand represents midos harachamim and one hand represents midos hadin and they should not be mixed. He also said that he knew someone who would cross their fingers a lot and he would tell them not to. He said the person died with their fingers crossed. I’m not trying to bring a point from that story but it is a little creepy. I always cut my fingernails out of order but does that apply to toenails as well? I also always cut both finger and toenails on the same day because it was convenient and I didn’t know otherwise, but now that I do I will iy’h try to do them on different days.

    #1033330

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    I agree with Old Man and Twisted. Very hard to understand that the Eibershter would give somebody a punishment for doing something which is not mentioned in the chumash or gemara. The mishna berurah writes in hilchos tefilin, I believe, that when kabalah contradicts gemara, we follow the gemara. Furthermore, he says even if there is an inyan mentioned in kabalah which is not contradicted by gemara, but somebody just does not want to follow it, we cannot force him.

    Quite frankly, since we cannot fathom Hashem’s ways, we are probably best off doing those things we understand and that He told us about in chumash and gemara and which are brought down lhalacha. If I were before a human judge, and I decided to clasp my hands, and the judge put me in jail for 10 extra years, would that be justice? It would be a travesty. Unless one fully understands Hashem’s workings, it is hard to grasp these minhagim. If you are nervous, than keep them. If you believe that Hashem will be fair at all times based on what he wrote explicitly as the 613 mitzvos, then, maybe it is not important to worry about these hidden recommendations. Only if you are on the madraiga where you understand Hashem’s workings and how these minhagim actually work in the heavenly spheres would it seem proper to practice them. I for one am not on that level.

    BTW, the Zohar also says one should never raise his hands over his head. Yet there is a picture in a well-known shul of Rav Shach giving a shmuess, where his hands are outstretched way above his head.

    #1033331

    hello99
    Member

    PY: I pointed out before that according to the Taz it IS a Gemara!

    #1033332

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hello: I will double-check, I believe the Aruch Hashulchan points out that a Ta’am Kalush doesn’t apply to Avida Leta’ama less than Shishim. Issur V’heter Halacha Lema’aseh is far from anything that I am knowledgeable in, so I could very easily be wrong.

    #1033333

    hello99
    Member

    The Aruch HaShulchan tries to reconcile the Shach who holds that Milsa d’Avida l’Ta’ama is d’Rabannan and the Kreisi u’Pleisi who holds it is d”Oraisa. He differentiates between the slight flavor generally added by spices, which is Ta’am Kalush when less than 1/60 and d’Rabannan and a dominat flavor that would be d’Oraisa.

    He certainly holds that Ta’am Kalush could apply to Avida l’Ta’ama.

    #1033334

    Sam2
    Participant

    Thanks.

    #1033335

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Hello99, a very quick glance at the gemara Shabbos 10a, seems to say that each amora would daven in the way he felt comfortable to express what was on his mind. One would dress fancy, one would davka take off his fancy garment so he would not appear chashuv. One would clasp his hands (pachar yadei) another would clasp his hands when it was an eis tzara, as an eved pleading in front of his master, but when it was a time of shalom and prosperity, he would dress fancier (to show his thanks and happiness in the RBSH for his good fortune).

    How one takes from this gemara that clasping hands is a bad idea and brings din down on a person is not at all apparent.

    #1033336

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hello99 and Sam2-

    1) On the subject of ???? ?????? ?????, I wanted to bring a raya to this din of the Issur v’Heter from Rashi, who writes (Chullin 88a):

    ?????? ?? ????? ??’ – ???”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????

    Accordingly one could infer that should something give ta’am it would be batel mid’oraisa after 60 from zaroa beshelah if you hold that it is a real drasha, even if you don’t consider it ta’am kalush, v’doik heitev.

    2) On the subject of 60 by sakanta, I’m not in the sugya, but having just gone through reicha I can tell you it’s a mefurashe Ran (Chullin 32b b’dafei haRif) that 60 is not enough. He says so to explain the gemara in Pesachim (76b) that to eat fish roasted with meat is a problem even according to Levi. However, the mechaber does not pasken like this, because in 97:3 he just says one may not eat the fish with milk, mashma that the fish alone is fine. Being that we hold l’chatchila that even though reicha is nothing it’s still a mah shehu (Rema 108:1), and the Rema is quiet in 89, I would therefore conclude ???? ????? that l’ma’aseh sakanta is also batel in 60, as hello99 assumed.

    However, ??????? that someone is madche this raya from 89 and says that the mechaber only said it that way because he was discussing basar b’chalav. ?”?.

    #1033337

    hello99
    Member

    PY: see the Taz OC 95:3, he clearly understands the Gemara differently than you do.

    #1033338

    hello99
    Member

    yitayningwut: 1) thank you for the mareh makom in Rashi.

    2) if you want sources regarding 60 and Sakana

    ?. ???? [??? ????].

    7. ??? ????? (?”? ?’).

    8. ??? ??? ????? (?”? ?’, ?”? ?’).

    12. ?? ????? (?? ??”? ???’ ?’, ?? ???’ ?’).

    [?”? ??”?] ????? ???? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??’ ??????? ????? ??? ?’ ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? [???”? ???”? ??”? ???”? ??”?]”.

    23. ???? ??? (?”? ?’, ?”? ?”?).

    34. ??”? (?”? ?”?, ?”? ?”?).

    [?? ?? ????? ????? ???????, ??? ??? ?? ???”.

    39. ?????”? ????”? (?’ ?????? ??? ?”? ??’ ?’, ??? ??”? ???? ??? ??’ ??”?).

    43. ?’ ?????? (??? ?”? ???’ ?”?, ??? ?”? ???’ ?’).

    ?. ?????.

    [?? ????]”.

    5. ??”? (?”? ?’).

    7. ??”? ???? ????? (?”? ??”? ??’ ?”?, ?”? ??”? ??’ ?”?).

    #1033339

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hello: I was thinking about this over Yom Tov, and isn’t there a Gemara in Chullin that says that if an animal ate poison it’s Kosher but Assur to eat because of Sakana? Presumably the poison does not equal 1/60 of the mass of the meat of the animal (even if we cannot count the bones), so this Gemara would sound like by Sakana we worry when there is even less than 1/60. Unless you want to say that in this case it’s known that there is a danger. In such a case, presumably even that long list of Mekilim you cite would have to agree that it’s Assur to eat (it would be very strange to say that in a case where we know the Sakana is potent that we can still assume it is really not there because it is Batul).

    #1033340

    hello99
    Member

    Sam: the sources I quoted are specifically referring to meat and fish. Some of them explicitly differentiate this from snake poison which is assur in minute quantities due to its potency.

    #1033341

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Hello99, I looked up the Taz over Yontof, and he does not base himself on the gemara. Rather the Beis Yosef tries to bring a rayah farkert from the gemara, that one SHOULD clasp hands in davening, but the Taz says it is not raya, and because of kabbalistic reasons, he says one should not. The Taz does not say anywhere that this gemara implies one should not. Rather, only because of separate kabbalistic concerns does he say one should not.

    #1033342

    hello99
    Member

    Secondly, the conclusion of the Taz is ????? ???? ???? ??? ????. Pretty strong language in a recognized Halacha sefer.

    #1033343

    old man
    Participant

    By using this particular style of “strong language”, the Taz is clearly invoking kabbalistic concerns and not halachah. This should be obvious.

    #1033344

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hello99-

    Wow! Thanx for all those mareh mekomos.

    #1033345

    hello99
    Member

    The term ????? ???? is used frequently in Poskim, even when referring to a purely Halachic consideration. For example: the Elya Rabba 316:26 regarding killing a flea on Shabbos, the Mishna Berura 473:43 regarding bugs in maror, the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 162 regarding Tevila in a river during the rainy season and the Chochmas Adam 52 regarding Bitul Issur, etc.

    #1033346

    hello99
    Member

    yitayningwut: your welcome, my pleasure

    #1033347

    hello99
    Member

    old man: can you explain to us why you are under the impression that Chalila indicates Kaballa?

    #1033348

    FIGGY
    Member

    moderator said “is this halacha or just superstition

    it is neither. it is a Minhag of a large part of Klal Yisroel, eastern european i believe. i am very careful about it.”

    Any source? Please.

    #1033349

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Rambam Hilchos Tefilla 5:4:

    ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????

    Tur O.C. 95:

    ??? ????”? ?”? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????

    Beit Yosef ??:

    ??? ????”? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???’ ??”? ????? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???”? ????? ?”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?”?

    Shulchan Aruch O.C. 95:3:

    ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? (????? ???????) ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? (??”? ??? ??’ ?”?

    #1033350

    BelieveYouMe
    Participant

    Did anyone ever hear of this one? Never walk over a person because supposedly they would not grow. And if you did walk over that person, you should walk right back over him.

    #1033351

    Sam2
    Participant

    BYM: If someone asked me, I would say that it’s an Issur D’Oraisa of Darchei HaEmori.

    But it is found in 1 (exactly 1) very recent T’shuvah Sefer and his reason for the Minhag is that… SheKein HaNashim Makpidim Al Zeh. (In an adjacent T’shuvah he mentions that he never let his children see their reflection before they grew teeth because otherwise their teeth would never grow in.)

    #1033353

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    I saw a video today and Rav Elyashiv does cross his fingers (the famous video about the shaitels) and I heard from a talmid of Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach that he was accustomed to do so too. Is seems they felt the issue was only during tfilla.

    #1033354

    rational jew
    Participant

    I think aryeh caplAn in “jewish meditation” reccomends against it since it may not allow the relaxed state nescasary to concentrate deeply in prayer. In general it is best not to cross ones hands or legs or fiddle with something or act in anyway that stems from tension since it only serves to reinforce that tension by actively admitting it is there. Even though you may feel that it calms you in reality it does the opposite eg shouting when angry you may call it venting but it just creates more tension. There are studies that support this. This may be another ta’am for lashon hara etc. The best way to relax is to act and speak in a relaxed way. Act as if things dont bother you while realizing that they shouldnt and they wont. Listening to wild music probably falls under this category it may not be assur to listen to but only serves to aggravate an angry or wild mood its like shoutin musicaly. Also screwing your face up in thought. It wont help you think but the opposite. Back to crossing fingers im no doctor but blocking the blood flow doesnt sound relaxing or comfortable although you imagine it is.

    #1033355

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lichora it’s a B’feirush Gemara (I think in Megila 3a) that there’s no issue with interlocking fingers.

    #1033356

    I was just curious, until now we are talking about interlocking hands and I think the points were pretty layed out. What about holding your feet together during Shmone Esra? Does it mean that your toes need to touch or does it mean that your big toe should be next to the middle of your other foot. Also I have seen many people daven with the tops of there feet apart is this like the shor of the kisa hakavod? Also the Oruch Hashulchan says that if you cant put them together you should put one in front of the other (never seen this done)?

    #1033357

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    It’s a machlokes in the Yerushalmi. See the Beit Yosef and the Bach in siman 95 for some clarity.

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 101 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending