something is really bothering me….

Home Forums Yom Tov Purim something is really bothering me….

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  • #595340

    yogibooboo
    Member

    It’s coming up on that time of year again…the smell of hamentashen, shalach manos packing, costume ideas, etc. But here’s what upsets me the most…BOYS DRINKING ON PURIM! they are not 21(where it is legal for them), they are between the ages of 14-18. they drink to no end, then I watch them in the local yeshiva throwing up. they throw up on the carpets and in the middle of the beis medrash and the poor janitors have to clean it up(yes i feel bad for them that they have to take care of these stupid kids messes). Last year I took away a bottle of wine from a 16 year old and spilled it out right there in front of him. Tell me what example are these parents and Rabbis setting by allowing them to drink? By watching their fathers doing it and their rabbis the pattern never end. Isn’t Purim about being happy and having fun? A little drink is fine but the way they drink is not. It makes me not look forward to Purim because of this. Where is everyones seichel????

    *and for you mothers and fathers out there that allow this and think its funny and cute, I really hope you dont end up in the hospital this year with your son. Think about this…Do you want to spend Purim in your home this year or with Doctors and nurses?(and no i dont mean in costume!)

    #745330

    canine
    Member

    The OBLIGATION to drink starts at age 13.

    #745331

    canine
    Member

    And the obligation is ad dlo yoda.

    If you’re rabbi holds there are alternatives, fine. Mine does not. My family is obligated to drink ad dlo yoda from age 13 and up.

    #745332

    JUST RELAX!!!!!

    on shabbos the whole klal yisroel makes kiddush and gives their children kiddush. they even give 2 yr olds wine. thats not legal either. WHO CARES WE DO IT ANYWAY

    #745333

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We can discuss what age is appropriate to start drinking on purim, but I certainly don’t think it is relevant whether they are 21.

    21 is just an age which is mandated that the states must not allow you to purchase alcohol or lose their federal highway funding. I’m not sure what federal highway funding has to do with purim.

    #745334

    real-brisker
    Member

    Why does it bother you so much the way someone else is mechanech their children?

    #745335

    doodle jump
    Participant

    Yogibooboo: Totally agree with you. However, forget about the mess for a second. It is mamash sakanas nefashos. Speak to any Hatzalah member and he will tell you what goes on in hospitals on purim. It is scary. Kids become really sick. HaShem Yishmor.

    #745336

    yossi z.
    Member

    First, religious reason waives the drinking age (though not the purchasing age). Second, the chiyuv to lose inhibition starts at the age of thirteen for boys and twelve for girls (yes girls are michuyav in ad dilo yodah also). Third, one can be yotze ad dilo yodah just by drinking (slightly) more than what one usually does. Fourth, the halacha says NOTHING about drinking irresponsibly and to no end. Yes there are those opinions to “get smashed” but there is a difference between drinking to inebriation and drinking to no end and irresponsibly.

    Do I drink and am under 21? Yes. Do/would I drink to the point where I would (barely) have minimal control? Yes. Would I make sure to prepare things so that when I don’t have control it could still be taken care of (like making sure I drink water and eat foods that would help counter the “bad” effects of alchohol)? Absolutely and that is always first on my list even before I get wine (and ONLY wine as that is what the mitzvah is with-look in the megillah and perushim if you don’t believe me)

    So yes it bothers me too

    😀 Zuberman! 😀

    #745337

    Why did you have the right to take away the bottle from that 16 year-old man? (and why did you spill it in front of him? Gloating??)

    Two rights(wrights) may have made an airplane, but two wrongs don’t make a right. (Thats if that boy was even wrong)

    #745338

    smartcookie
    Member

    The OP is 100 percent right. Boys and adults are putting themselves into danger. There was a Yungerman who passed away two years ago on purim after damaging his liver from too much alcohol.

    IT IS NOT A JOKE.

    #745339

    canine
    Member

    (yes girls are michuyav in ad dilo yodah also).

    No they’re not. In fact its assur for girls.

    Third, one can be yotze ad dilo yodah just by drinking (slightly) more than what one usually does.

    According to SOME shittas. Not everyone holds from that shitta.

    #745340

    Health
    Participant

    “There was a Yungerman who passed away two years ago on purim after damaging his liver from too much alcohol.”

    This I don’t believe. Liver damage takes years. I did hear a story of a bochur dying a year ago on Purim from too much alcohol.

    #745341

    Personally, I think it depends on the atmoshphere one is in. But all in all, NO ONE should be getting to a point where they are too sick. It just looks unappealing and probably not what the chachamim had in mind. If the underaged kids are in an atmosphere where the seuda is totaly focused on growing in torah, yoddishkeit, middos etc, and there is a rebbe (and rebbetzin) there that have control of the situation, than it shouldn’t be a problem (because the problem won’t exist). If one is in a situation where there is total hefkairus, than under-aged kids should not be drinking. For example, in Israel, when you’re by your rebbe’s seuda, things don’t get out of hand too often. However, when in America and the seuda is with friends, it’s more of a recipe for nisht pashut times, especially if the kids there are going in with the mindset (kavana) that they are going to get smashed and do stupid, immature things.

    Purim is supposed to be a holy and special time, DONT SPEND IT IN THE HOSPITAL (C’V) OR LOOKING REALLY SICK! ENJOY IT RESPONSIBLY AND BE BE’SIMCHA (you can’t be be’simcha when you’re too sick). SHOW THE WORLD WHY WE WERE SAVED AND WHY WE SHOULD BE BE’SIMCHA!

    #745342

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And if I post on purim night, you may rest assured that I will be drunk out of my brains.

    #745343

    OP you are right 100%, the only way this will change is for more Gadolim, RHs, and Physicians to come on strongly about this. Klal Yisroel is responsible for each other. We need Mussar from the ER Doctors who have witnessed this on Purim. Bochurim Smoking on Purim is another problem that needs to be addressed. The other thing that is not acceptable are people in an inenbriated state driving a vehicle after drinking Alcohol on Purim.

    #745344

    mw13
    Participant

    I’ll tell you what really bothers me – when people bash those following the Shulchan Orach! There is a halachic chiyuv to drink, as stated in the Gemora and all the Poskim. You cannot simply ignore the halachos that you do not like. The halacha is that we drink, so we drink; end of story.

    “they are not 21(where it is legal for them)”

    So what? If it was only legal to keep Shabbos for those 21 and older, would you say those under 21 shouldn’t keep Shabbos?!

    “last year I took away a bottle of wine from a 16 year old and spilled it out right there in front of him.”

    Did I mention that another thing that really bothers me is when people are oiver the issur di’Oraysa of “lo sigzul”?

    “Tell me what example are these parents and Rabbis setting by allowing them to drink?”

    That we should always follow the halacha, no matter what people like you say.

    “Isn’t Purim about being happy and having fun?”

    No. Purim is about being mekaiyam the mitzvos of the day – megilah, mishloach manos, matanos li’evyonim, and drinking.

    #745345

    aries2756
    Participant

    TBT a 16 year old is NOT a man, he is a kid and if he is going around with an open bottle of alchohol he is a stupid kid at that.

    #745346

    cb1
    Member

    This I don’t believe. Liver damage takes years. I did hear a story of a bochur dying a year ago on Purim from too much alcohol.

    just for your information the bochur who died last purim did not die from too much alcohol rather from an aneurysm

    #745347

    ronrsr
    Member

    popa, it is unwise to drink and post.

    #745348

    rebbitzen
    Member

    cb1, maybe youre talking abt two different ppl….

    #745349

    canine
    Member

    rebbitzen, or maybe not.

    #745350

    my only thought is – halevai we should all be so enthusiastic in defending and keeping other mitzvos and chiyuvim.

    #745351

    smartcookie
    Member

    My husband became drunk one year. It was a nightmare. It is definitely NOT what the Torah asks from us. He never did it again B”H.

    #745352

    kapusta
    Participant

    SDHN, I just logged in to post the same thing. If only people would learn and daven with the same feeling.

    Just curious, is getting drunk/possibly vomiting all over the place and in general looking like a total fool/possibly causing a chillul Hashem (c’v)/possibly doing something stupid (like getting behind a wheel) part of the mitzvah?

    *kapusta*

    #745353

    canine
    Member

    According to Shulchan Aruch, it definitely IS what the Torah asks from us.

    #745354

    commonsense
    Participant

    to cb1 I am relatively sure that that is just a story that was spread at the time. I normally do not like to post about other people but I think it’s important for people especially bochrim to know that it was the alcohol and not an aneuryism.

    #745356

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    My husband has NEVER been drunk on purim! Hic. He’s too busy chasing the billions of blue blistering barnacles. Hic.

    #745357

    cb1
    Member

    cb1, maybe youre talking abt two different ppl….

    i doubt that. if two bochurim would’ve been niftar on the same purim it would’ve been very big news.

    #745358

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    I agree, some people really get too drunk on Purim and end up missing the purim seudah in which they have a mitzvah. What really hurts me is when I see small boys running around with cigarettes in their mouths.

    #745359

    OP perhaps maybe you should change the way you look at things? there are many things that can be perceived in two ways. If a person constantly (based on other posts) has a negative outlook on things then of course your going to hate purim. It is such any easy target.

    If one does a little more looking in and less looking out than perhaps you too can experience they true joys of purim

    #745360

    canine
    Member

    If your rov holds for whatever reasons it is okay not to follow the halacha written in SA to drink alcohol ad dlo yoda, no one here is telling you that you must follow our rabbonim who do hold one must drink as such. But on the same token, do not try to impose your rabbi’s opinion on us not to drink, when our rov does hold one must drink ad dlo yoda as halacha states.

    #745361

    jewish source
    Participant

    I was on a flight to Poland recently and a lady bought a glass of schnapps for their five year old no joke

    #745362

    yogibooboo
    Member

    Ok here goes:

    1. ill never forget when a kid lost it all and he had to end up in the hospital but then the doctor along with hatzalah members put him in the ambulance he literally kicked the doctor who is one respected member in my community. Where were the kid’s parents when this happened?? oh yeah, prob getting drunk to.

    2.The mitzvah of drinking is NOTto get drunk. it’s to get a little high. all of you who think what these kids are doing is ok, then I want you to go to the hospital on Purim and sit there with all those families that got stuck there bec of their stupid idiotic kids.

    3. I took that bottle away from that kid, bec then I knew there was one less drink that boy was having. The security guard that was there actually thanked me for what I did.

    4. MW13- “So what? If it was only legal to keep Shabbos for those 21 and older, would you say those under 21 shouldn’t keep Shabbos?!”

    what shyichus is that??!?!! that made no sense. do you know how many police cars are around in my community on that day. They dont care who they get as long as they get them and they are right!

    5.real-brisker: why does it bother me how they mechanech their kids? this is NOT called chinuch!

    6.I thank all those that agree with me on this. it’s a very big thing and I hate hearing Hatzalah…ALL DAY LONG! I watch as the men hang out of the car windows and the wives drive around as if its so funny. its really not and they look so stupid! Purim is about being with yur family, dressing up, megillah, shalach manos, having a seudah(with a little bit of wine), and giving to the poor. How can you be a father if you are so drunk? Why does everything have to fall on the mother…”no more candy,” “stop bothering so and so,” “no mroe nosh” that is not fair. It is stupid and irresponsible of all those men out there who continue to give out drinks to all those underage boys and if you allow your kids to do it, like i said earlier I hope your child doesnt become a story!

    #745363

    canine
    Member

    The mitzvah in shulchan aruch is AD DLO YODA.

    #745364

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    For the record, I will not be getting drunk this Purim. In fact, I have never gotten drunk and plan to continue that streak as long as I live.

    Even if I didn’t value the concept of sobriety, I would not be drinking on Purim. I am far too busy on Purim to drink.

    The Wolf

    #745365

    fabie
    Member

    What about all those fire crackers – fire works starting a month before Purim. One of my foster children almost lost a few fingers when one blew up in his hand. Yes we warned him in advance, and watched his belogings as well. He did it at a neighbors.

    #745366

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    My theory is that the boys in yeshiva have very little outlets during the year so on Purim they go totally nuts, trying to get it all in. I wish they would take that energy and make a purim play. Some boys would really benefit from making a play and getting the attention they crave that way. A certain local yeshiva used to make a purim play purim night, and charged admission. It was fun for the boys and the yeshiva got much needed funds.

    #745367

    charliehall
    Participant

    ” Purim is about being mekaiyam the mitzvos of the day – megilah, mishloach manos, matanos li’evyonim, and drinking. “

    WRONG!!! The four mitzvot are megilah, mishloach manot, matanot l’evyonim, and SEUDAH. Anyone who thinks drinking is one of the four mitzvot is allowing his yetzer hara to distory torah.

    #745368

    charliehall
    Participant

    From the gedol hador on matters of alcohol:

    http://www.ou.org/holidays/purim/purim_twerski

    #745369

    oomis
    Participant

    We go through this every year. The boys who want to find an excuse to drink (like some who have posted here), will use the Shulchan Aruch as an excuse to be real “tzaddikim” and get disgustingly smashed.

    When the Shulchan Aruch was written down, there were no stupid boys driving around in lethal weapon cars, smoking cigarettes, whose ashes they flung along with their vomit on neighboring lawns, making doofuses of themselves. No one was causing a Chillul Hashem by waking up babies and exhausted mothers in the middle of the night, or any of a myriad of inexcusable drunken actions that occur each year, they were staying in the Yeshivah. They were not getting intoxicated to the point of alcohol poisoning and ending up in the ER. Thank G-d Hatzalah has people who do not follow this practice.

    When a UPS man comes to my house to ask me (because we are somewhat acquainted from his making deliveries that I take in for my neighbor) my opinion about what to do about the drunk who hit his truck on Purim (because the driver of the UPS truck really does not want to cause problems for the Jewish community he services), that is beyond sad. What a Chillul Hashem!

    Most important, our Rabbonim have repeatedly published their opinion that the Ad d’lo yada should no longer be followed as it has been in the past. It is enough to drink SLIGHTLY more than than one normally would. So a glass or two of wine is plenty and sufficient to lower one’s inhibitions. With all the concern about girls’ tznius and measuring skirt lengths,I cannot fathom how the drunken actions of the boys on Purim, some which end in hospitalization or worse, is not a way more serious issue.

    edited

    #745370

    smartcookie
    Member

    CB1- I would think that the family says “aneurism”, to cover up the real reason. I don’t blame them.

    Canine- when you sleep, you can also be mekayem ad dlo yodo. Or you can bang your head in the wall several times. People choose to follow what they want to do.

    #745371

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m sorry, but it is really quite ridiculous to claim that there is no halachic basis to get mind-numbingly drunk on purim- because there is. It is the pashtus of the gemara and the shulchan aruch.

    Also, I have never seen anybody drink a little bit and then go to sleep, so anybody who does not get drunk is usually not yotzei according to anyone.

    And the shulchan aruch wasn’t only written for yeshiva guys. You also have a chiyyuv.

    #745372

    canine
    Member

    If YOUR Rov says Ad Dlo Yoda means exactly what Shulchan Aruch says, and you MUST get drunk Ad Dlo Yoda, YOU MUST get drunk Ad Dlo Yoda, and you may not follow “other” opinions.

    That’s what MY Rov says. I WILL follow my Rov.

    #745373

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And I will also follow canine’s rov.

    #745374

    yogibooboo
    Member

    PBA-usually I agree with you on things and like what you say…but not this time!

    #745375

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    sorry yogibooboo.

    Look, I agree that it sometimes gets out of hand. I have seen guys drink in extremely irresponsible ways.

    However, the most egregious cases we hear about are usually kids whose parents never taught them to drink responsibly and have now broken free of their shackles for the first time.

    For example, the story which is published every year in the advertisements. The kid in the story drank three 8oz glasses of whiskey in a few minutes “because he didn’t feel anything yet”. Nobody who had ever drunk any amount of alcohol before would do that.

    So as far as I am concerned, the moral of that story is to teach your kids how to drink.

    I really don’t associate with the opinion that all drinking is bad always. It is certainly not what chazal say about purim, or the rest of the year.

    I have gotten quite drunk every year since I was 15, and I never ended up in the hospital, nor did anything outrageous.

    #745376

    Last night, I told my 16 year old brother how proud I am of him for NOT drinking. He says there’s a lot of social pressure but I’m glad his head is screwed on right. 🙂

    My father drinks a cup of wine then goes to sleep to fulfill the mitzva.

    #745377

    yossi z.
    Member

    PBA brings a good point actually. issues could be solved if we taught how to drink properly. i personally learned from my father and a few other respected people (my rosh hayeshivah, mashgiach, first, second, and night seder rabeim, etc) how to drink.

    it’s really assur for girls to drink? i thought they were supposed to have a little more than what they usually have and that’s it and it is the men who are supposed to “seriously” drink

    😀 Zuberman! 😀

    #745378

    smartcookie
    Member

    Poppa- there’s a difference in becoming drunk and acting crazy, or becoming a little lightheaded.

    #745379

    mw13
    Participant

    sof davar hakol nishma:

    “my only thought is – halevai we should all be so enthusiastic in defending and keeping other mitzvos and chiyuvim.”

    The difference is that this mitzva, we actually have to defend – how many other halachos can you think of that some people who call themselves frum not only don’t keep, but are actually upset when others keep it?!

    smartcookie:

    “My husband became drunk one year. It was a nightmare. It is definitely NOT what the Torah asks from us.”

    Umm… actually, it is.

    “He never did it again B”H.”

    We’ll see if you feel the same way about that when he has to give a din v’cheshbon to Hashem for not having kept this halacha.

    yogibooboo:

    “The mitzvah of drinking is NOTto get drunk. it’s to get a little high.”

    According to most poskim and the simple reading of the Gemora, the mitzva is to get completely, throughly smashed. The Rema brings down a HETER that one can drink a little be and then go to sleep, and be yotzeh. (Yes, you must go to sleep. Those who drink a little and do not go to sleep are not yotzeh according to anybody.) However, the Rema himself ends off with saying that one can be mekayam the mitzva either way.

    “MW13- “So what? If it was only legal to keep Shabbos for those 21 and older, would you say those under 21 shouldn’t keep Shabbos?!”

    what shyichus is that??!?!! that made no sense.”

    What shaychis? Very simple – both would theoretically be halachic chiyuvim, yet against the American law. What would you say?

    “Purim is about being with yur family, dressing up, megillah, shalach manos, having a seudah(with a little bit of wine), and giving to the poor.”

    Again; no, it is not. Purim is about being mekaiyam the mitzvos of the day – megilah, mishloach manos, matanos li’evyonim, the seudah, and drinking.

    charliehall:

    “”Purim is about being mekaiyam the mitzvos of the day – megilah, mishloach manos, matanos li’evyonim, and drinking.”

    WRONG!!! The four mitzvot are megilah, mishloach manot, matanot l’evyonim, and SEUDAH. Anyone who thinks drinking is one of the four mitzvot is allowing his yetzer hara to distory torah.”

    True, I forgot to include the seudah. However, drinking is still most definitely one of the mitzvos of Purim, brought down in the Gemora and all of the Poskim. Anyone who thinks drinking is not a mitzva is allowing his yetzer hara to convince him to ignore the halacha simply because it does not appeal to our (western-culture) tastes today.

    Also, R’ Twerski is a daas Yochid on this. If he is your Rov, kol hakavod; but if not one cannot go “heter-shopping”.

    oomis1105:

    “When the Shulchan Aruch was written down, there were no stupid boys driving around in lethal weapon cars…”

    True. For the record, I would like to say that it is totally inexcusable to drive while drunk. It is illegal and dangerous.

    However, this does not take away the obligation to drink in any way.

    “With all the concern about girls’ tznius and measuring skirt lengths,I cannot fathom how the drunken actions of the boys on Purim… is not a way more serious issue.”

    What? What does one thing have to do with another?

    And besides, a girl dressing not tzinus(ly?) is violating the halacha; a boy getting drunk on Purim is fulfilling the halacha.

    popa_bar_abba:

    “I’m sorry, but it is really quite ridiculous to claim that there is no halachic basis to get mind-numbingly drunk on purim- because there is. It is the pashtus of the gemara and the shulchan aruch.

    Also, I have never seen anybody drink a little bit and then go to sleep, so anybody who does not get drunk is usually not yotzei according to anyone.

    And the shulchan aruch wasn’t only written for yeshiva guys. You also have a chiyyuv.”

    Thank you – finally, some sense! Well said, and I could not agree more.

    yogibooboo:

    “PBA-usually I agree with you on things and like what you say…but not this time!”

    Tell me, yogibooboo, precisely which part of popa’s post do you disagree with? Do you disagree with his quote of the Gemora and the Shulchan Orach?! Or do you think that the Shulchan Orach really was only written for yeshiva guys?! There’s really not much here that’s a matter of opinion; it’s all straight-out halacha.

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