Source in Torah and/or Gemara for Kapparos

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  • #613787

    Yussel
    Participant

    Where is the source for swinging chickens over our heads on Erev Yom Kippur? Is it in the Torah or the Gemara?

    #1034345

    Sam2
    Participant

    It’s a Minhag from the time of the Geonim quoted in a Rashi (well, the Minhag is; he didn’t have it Erev Yom Kippur).

    #1034346

    Joseph
    Participant

    It demonstrably goes back at least as far as the Geonim. And the Geonim got it from earlier.

    #1034347

    Yussel
    Participant

    However, there is NO SOURCE in the Torah OR the Gemara for this minhag, is there?

    #1034348

    Joseph
    Participant

    You think the Geonim, who came immediately after the Gemorah, just invented it on their own for fun?

    #1034349

    Yussel
    Participant

    I think there are serious problems with this minhag. Many rishonim were against it.

    #1034350

    Joseph
    Participant

    And many supported it. And the Geonim preceded the Rishonim.

    #1034351

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lior: As far as I know, the Geonim don’t bring it down. It’s brought down in Rishonim as a Minhag from the time of the Geonim and many Rishonim had major problems with it. Lulei D’mistifina, I would say that Kim’at Kullam would hold that the Arizal’s Hiddur of using a white chicken is an absolute Issur D’Oraisa.

    #1034352

    no nonsense
    Participant

    As I am sure many of you are aware the Mechaber said not to do it as it is Darkei Ha’Emori.

    #1034353

    Joseph
    Participant

    And the Rama says chickens should be used for kaporos, as it is the Minhag Vasikin. So, apparently, the conclusion being Sefardim, per the Mechaber, should use money while Ashkenazim, per the Rama, should use chickens for kaporos.

    #1034354

    jbaldy22
    Member

    The first edition of the shulchan aruch says “minhag kaparos minhag shtus hu.”

    #1034355

    Sam2
    Participant

    See, I never understand why so many are willing to go to such lengths to defend Kapparos. In a world where people try to outdo each other to be Choshesh for even a Da’as Yachid on an Issur D’rbanannan, the same people will fight tooth and nail to defend something that is Assur Min HaTorah according to many prominent Rishonim.

    DY or Popa, can you try to explain this please?

    #1034356

    West Gate
    Member

    Live and let live: If your minhag is chickens, gezunteheit. If your minhag is money, gezuntheit. No one should interfere with others minhagim.

    #1034357

    ivory
    Member

    I’m a bit confused here. Why is it assur min hatorah?

    #1034358

    Joseph
    Participant

    The reason must have eluded the Rama and all the many others.

    #1034359

    no nonsense
    Participant

    Upon further research I saw that Rav Ovadia Yosef in his Yalkut Yosef says that he doesn’t understand the Mechaber and instead he says that it is a minhag from way before from the Geonim and it should be done. Then he writes many details of how it should be done.

    #1034360

    squeak
    Participant

    Another current thread with sam trying to fix yiddishkeit un ken hashkafa. I dont care to bring up all the past examples. Even if someone were to have encyclopedic knowledge of the torah it means nothing without a mesorah and hashkafa rebbi to talmid. Torah tapes are not a rebbi (as should be obvious but nevertheless explicitly stated in the gemara that one needs to see the rebbi teaching).

    And lulei dmistafina isn’t just some rhetoric like nisht oif shabbos geredt.

    #1034361

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Squeak:

    R’ Tzadok in ???? ????? ??? ??? writes:

    ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???

    #1034362

    Sam2
    Participant

    squeak: Really? Is that called for here? I didn’t say not to do it. I said I don’t understand why the Chareidi Olam isn’t against it. And I know what Lulei D’mistifina means. I think I use it on only 3 occasions. I understand where and when it is appropriately used.

    #1034363

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sam’s three uses of lulei d’mistifina:

    1)”Lulei D’mistifina, I would say that we have to wonder if the Rambam’s society influenced this Halachah. After all, he also says that a husband should beat his wife if she doesn’t listen to him, something which no one nowadays would agree to.” http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/brides-wedding-vow-to-obey-husband#post-410478

    2)”Lula D’mistifina that it was Apikorsus, I would say a Davar Pashut that the reason the Chachamim over the centuries have not been Moche on drinking on Purim is a similar Cheshbon that the Catholic Church made with Carnival. I can’t say it, because I think that is K’firah, but when that’s what Purim becomes you’ve lost a Yom Tov and created a neo-Pagan holiday.”

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/maybe-we-all-should-stop-getting-drunk-on-purim/page/2#post-514492

    3)”Lulei D’mistifina, I would say that Kim’at Kullam would hold that the Arizal’s Hiddur of using a white chicken is an absolute Issur D’Oraisa.”

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/source-in-torah-andor-gemara-for-kapparos#post-537527

    #1034364

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Sam2. I think it is because the Yeshivish world is terrified of calls for change even if warrented. Especially when it is called for by “animal rights activists” or scientists or those perceived as “liberal”

    Lior Kapparos as practiced today has zero to do with the Rema. In the Rema’s days people had chickens so once a year before shecting it anyway they twirled it around their head first. I assure you the Rema didnt have thousands of chickens trucked into to cite is from who knows where then stored in the sun with little food and water. Then to be shechted and discarded. And no most of the cickens do not go to the poor. There is too much effort to clean all thos echickens most are killed and thrown in the garbage. This was not the minhag as practiced byt the Rema or even a mere century ago.

    #1034365

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiquitin: You are factually incorrect regarding your comments on the Rema’s shitta. The kaporos today with chickens is the same as what the Rema used and paskened on as being a Minhag Vasikin.

    #1034366

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    No Lior the Rema lived in a rural society (16th century Poland) when all had access to chicken to how to feed them hold them and care for them. It is a minhag tbut as others have pointed out their are halachos too. The Rema would not recognize kapporas today .

    #1034367

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s your own boich svara. You’re trying to overrule the Rema for Ashkenazim.

    #1034368

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lior: He’s not trying to overrule the Rama. He’s trying to explain why the Rama was talking about a different situation. I don’t know that he is succeeding, but you do have to admit that in the Rama’s time there weren’t hundreds of thousands of people doing this within a small radius. Now, that fact might not be relevant, but it is true.

    #1034369

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Lior are you serious? That the rema lived in 16th century poland is a boich sevara?

    Or that the logistics of providing chicjens for an agrarian 16th century society are different than a 21st Century city?

    And as sam2 said I in no way am dreaming of overruling the rema?

    #1034370

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If a person is starving its easier to give them money

    Even if you give the chicken to the poor person as soon as Kaparot is done, very few people today know how to Kasher a chicken. THey have to bring it to a butcher and get it Kashered (and pay money for it)

    #1034371

    charliehall
    Participant

    “You think the Geonim, who came immediately after the Gemorah, just invented it on their own for fun?”

    There are numerous shitot of the Geonim that don’t appear in the Gemorah; some have become normative halachah even when they conflict with explicit decisions brought down in the Bavli. For some of these we do not know their source.

    “You’re trying to overrule the Rema”

    While I am a big fan of the Rema, it is a fact that many Ashkenazim do not follow the Rema on many matters. Do you keep an hour between meat and milk? Will you be donning tefillin a week from today? Do you recite Hallel in synagogue on seder night?

    #1034372

    charliehall
    Participant

    “The reason must have eluded the Rama and all the many others.”

    Wrong. The Rema knew what the Mecaber though of Kaporot; he just disagreed.

    #1034373

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Do you keep an hour between meat and milk? Will you be donning tefillin a week from today? Do you recite Hallel in synagogue on seder night?”

    Is anyone here telling you or trying to convince you to stop following your minhagim on these or other matters? Just follow your father’s mesorah, whatever they are. And don’t try to stop us from following our mesorah and minhag of using chicken for kapporos.

    #1034374

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lior: If your father’s Minhag was to be M’chalel Shabbos, should we let you? If it’s Assur, it’s Assur.

    #1034375

    charliehall
    Participant

    “And don’t try to stop us from following our mesorah and minhag of using chicken for kapporos.”

    I wasn’t trying to stop anything. YOU were the one who brought up the issue of overruling the Rema; I was simply pointing out that many have done just that.

    #1034376

    Joseph
    Participant

    Charlie: I was speaking rhetorically; not specifically to you.

    Sam: That wouldn’t be a minhag and you know it. A minhag yisroel is a minhag yisroel whether it’s your minhag or not and whether you like it or not. Especially if it is backed up by Rishonim and Achronim including the Rema and contemporary. (Seen the YWN pictures of Rav Chaim and the many other Gedolim in EY and here using chicken kapporos? Rav Chaim isn’t online, so can you kindly inform Rav Chaim that he is doing something that is “Assur Min HaTorah according to many prominent Rishonim”?)

    #1034377

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    The source is Rashi Shabbos 81b

    #1034378

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Tur quotes Rav Natrunai Gaon’s responsa, so it is not just Rishonim mentioning a Minhag of the Geonim; it is in writing from the Geonim. Rashi too was quoting what he saw from the Geonim.

    Now, this actually is explaining what the Gemara means by Purpisa. He says that he saw from the Geonim that they did Zeh Tachas Zeh with plants. This should serve as an example of a Minhag that the Amoraim had but was not explicitly recorded. They referenced to it as an example of a question in Hilchos Shabbos, by chance. So perhaps the question itself, what is the Mekor, is refuted by this very topic.

    #1034379

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, I know you have it in for the Arizal, but this time, although he agreed to it, the Minhag of using a white one is from the Maharil. As to the issue of this resembling the Gemara’s case of Darkei Emori, I’m sure you are aware of the answers given. Some say to take the white one without specifically asking for it, since the Gemara only mentioned asking for it.

    This might sounds like a poor excuse but the same answer is given to explain the Sefer Chasidim in the topic of Tarnegol Shakara Ketarnegoles. The Chida, I think, explains Eshta Ve’osir this way, too. The Gemara is actually Meduyak this way, since it switches from one who does this or that to one who says this or that.

    Besides for this, I personally don’t get the big deal. You aren’t asking for a white chicken for some mysterious reason. You want a white one just for a Remez.

    And to answer the big Pliah on the Chareidim, we are Makpid on not trying to be smarter than our Rabbeim.

    #1034380

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lior: Trust me, R’ Chaim knows many Rishonim and Achronim hold it’s Assur. My question was one of societal curiosity, not saying it should be stopped.

    HaLeiVi: I have nothing against the Arizal, even if I’m rarely Makpid for things which the writings of his Talmidim are the Makor (and wasn’t accepted by a large number of later Poskim). He was a unique person who is a different branch of the Mesorah.

    And Chareidi society tries to be smarter than their Rebbeim with every new Chumra introduced. I’m just curious why this is different.

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