April 6, 2021 9:36 am at 9:36 am #1962485ymribiatParticipant
In order to obtain an ADA exemption from wearing a mask, Spririt requires
– notification 48 hours in advance that you will be requesting an exemption
– a completed Spirit ADA Medical Exemption form or a letter from a doctor dated 10 days before the flight. Documents need to beto be presented 3 hours before the flight
– a negative Covid test within 24 hours of the flight.
More info here
I have an upcoming flight and cannot wear a face mask due to a disability. Do I have to wear a face covering or mask onboard a Spirit flight?April 6, 2021 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1962739GadolhadorahParticipant
Its getting tiring hearing yidden complain about various airlines and conflating incompetence with systemic anti-semitism. If you don’t like the service on an airline, there are probably 2 or 3 others that fly to the same or nearby destinations. You can also drive or take the train to Florida. I’ve flown spirit and the other “budget” airlines on a few occasions and find them almost universally challenged w/o regard to jew.non-jew. They are just challenged to provide efficient service given the level of training, pressure on turn-around times and lack of support to their flight crews on PPE, time off for illness, testing etc.April 6, 2021 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1962750
ymribiat, if you are not able to wear a mask, you best choice is to have a staycation and not endanger yourself. If you are able to wear a loose mask, add a face shield over it. and get a vaccine.April 6, 2021 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1962751ubiquitinParticipant
“cannot wear a face mask due to a disability. Do I have to wear a face covering or mask onboard a Spirit flight?”
I didn’t check the website
but based on the information provided by a source you need to do the following things to board:
1) notify them 48 hours in advance that you will be requesting an exemption
2) complete a Spirit ADA Medical Exemption form or get a letter from a doctor dated 10 days before the flight. These Documents need to be presented 3 hours before the flight
3) get a negative Covid test within 24 hours of the flight.
According to my source if you satisfy these 3 requirements you will not need to wear a mask. Otherwise you will if you choose to fly with them.*
Good luck and safe travels
*worth noting that this is the official company policy whether each individual flight attendant is familiar with the policy is an entirely different matter. I would print out their policy to show them and keep your doctors note, completed form and Negative Covid test handyApril 6, 2021 11:06 am at 11:06 am #1962754YtParticipant
Shut up spirit airlines isn’t anti Semitic jus all Jewish people Focus on them, I bet you now many goyim have been removed for similar reasons also SHHHHHHApril 6, 2021 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1962845☕️coffee addictParticipant
“worth noting that this is the official company policy whether each individual flight attendant is familiar with the policy is an entirely different matter. I would print out their policy to show them and keep your doctors note, completed form and Negative Covid test handy“
I would say the same thing cover all your bases (and keep your camera rolling for when they make a stink)April 7, 2021 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1962882
also remember that virus may not be aware of airline policies.
If you are not able to wear a mask, you are creating an extra risk and you should use other precautions to protect others and yourself and even to avoid maris ayn: vaccinate, isolate before travel, not travel without a serious reason to, sit in the corner – first class or last row, use face shieldApril 7, 2021 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1963003
So long as you are in compliance with the airlines policies its none of anyone business, show the documentation to the flight crew and if anyone makes a comment, be polite and tell them its none of your business, fly wherever and whenever your heart desires, its none of anyones business, if AAQ offer to pay for your upgrade to first class I would certainly take him up on his offer.
PS Maris ayin is only appicable in conficts in halachaApril 7, 2021 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1963161
>> So long as you are in compliance with the airlines policies
I thought we had better standards than airline policies
>> Maris ayin is only appicable in conficts in halacha
a person who looks Jewish without a mask looks like a person violating government policies and endagering human lives, which is against halakha. Leading to people think bad about Jews. Especially, when such cases are already publicized.April 9, 2021 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1963665
@AAQ, when it come to rules we follow the rules, for example if the speed limit is 55 you don’t need to drive at 45 or if your sitting in first class and they announce first class is boarding you don’t need to wait and board with coach.
I have to deal on my job with ADA compliance and for example if the person had a certified service dog we were not allowed to ask the nature of the disablity because it is in vilolation of ADA.
Maris ayin applies when for example one got to a traif restaurant, utilizing your rights under ADA is not Maris ayinApril 9, 2021 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #1963758
@AAQ, when it come to rules we follow the rules
from daf yomi discussions: you find ownerless money without simanim, you are allowed to take it.
You don’t have to. You can still make an effort too find the owner. If he is non-Jewish, this could be kiddush Hashem.
re: dog. It depends how people will see it. Someone with a dog is probably presumed to be disabled. Currently, someone without a mask is seen as non-complying, people will not think that he might have medically-certified masko-fobiaApril 9, 2021 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1963762🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“people will not think that he might have medically-certified masko-fobia”
Which is against the halacha of judging favorablyApril 9, 2021 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1963781CHOOSIDParticipant
Masks aren’t geshmak so I say we start a heimeshe airplane company!! Baer mayim chaim drinks will be served you can take overweight luggage or packages from others….only chassidish flight attendants!! Whose in? I need an investor!April 11, 2021 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1963918
Syag> Which is against the halacha of judging favorably
the question here is inverse – maris ayn is precisely that we should behave in a way that does not cause suspicions, we are not allowed to say – “let them judge me favorably”. If you agree with this halakha, then I presume you’ll change your position.
For example, we just learned in Daf Yomi Shekalim that a person in charge of money in Beis Hamikdash would go into the money room without pockets, short-cut hair, etc to avoid suspicions. They did not require him putting water into his mouth though – as he was supposed to say a brocha.April 11, 2021 7:52 am at 7:52 am #1963986
It is the height of Am Ratzius to say that we need to worry about maris arin when utilizing our right under US law, sorry pal but it is obvious that you have no clue about the rules in regards to ADA.
Maris ain does not even apply to the use of an eruv, it is safely assumes that if a frum person is pushing a stroller on shabbos there is a eruv. In fact the eruv and US law is a good analogy there were several cases of municipalities that were sued under Rluipa [Westhampton, Tenafly, Mahwah etal] for not allowing a eruv to be built, were we worried about maris ain when the eruv was built or our rights under US law.
Under normal circumstances I would have advised seeking out your LOR for guidance but I forgot you only advocate that if the answer would fit the agenda you are pushing otherwise you disregard it.April 11, 2021 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1964070
Common, I am not advocating against ADA. We are talking about a person flying without a mask based on alleged disability. Given that there are multiple Jews who are bad with masks, how is it not maris ayn? I agree that maris ayn mat be influenced by common assumptions. For example, pareve milk required keeping the bottle nearby but not anymore. I also don’t need to ask shailos for a permission not to fly, someone who is flying needs to ask question whether it is moris ayn or not. I’ll be interested hearing the answer and an explanationApril 11, 2021 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1964083
@AAQ and lets say the answer does not fit into your agenda? then disregard it? Anyway its a moot point because we are talking about exercising one rights afforded under US law.April 11, 2021 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1964114
common, I’ll be interested to learn about ranges of halakha here. I don’t know exact answer. You said several times “what if the answer does not fit” without providing any halakhic references, this does not help me at all.
I am also not sure “exercising rights under US law” concludes halakhic discussion. I understand you are involved into ADA, but how does it affect possible moris ayn? Maybe you can have a sign “no mask based on ADA”. Maybe also wearing a face shield could show people that you are not a total rasha – with an ADA sticker to boot.April 12, 2021 8:24 am at 8:24 am #1964154
@AAQ, “I’ll be interested to learn about ranges of halakha here.” when I ask a halacha lmayisha issue to a Rav I dont get into a give and take with him nor do I ask my lawyer for case law back up when I retain him for a legal opinion or a CPA for the IRS rulings I have something called trust for a expert.
Our history is littered with people who viewed torah as something to be use to fit the agenda they were pushing, from the Erev Rav and Korech to Shabbati Tzvi to Haskala to Kapos in WW II.
ADA is a right afforded to all people in the US regardless of who they are, same as any other law, there were a few people who were horrified that frum people sued various villages for discrimination and they had no business exercising their rights.
I would pay for a tee shirt that reads: NO I AM NOT WEARING A MASK AND ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHY NOTApril 12, 2021 10:36 am at 10:36 am #1964194
Common, seems we just have different business and learning styles.
I regularly ask questions of my lawyer and CPA. Sometime, they explain the logic to me and it helps in my future business decisions, sometimes they review my suggestions and those that work out saved my company some bucks, other did not. Neither of them told me that questions are inappropriate or quit doing business with me. I would ask a Rav before wearing a t-shirt you suggested. I would appreciate if you confirm that there is a Rav that will say this is an appropriate notice.April 13, 2021 12:25 am at 12:25 am #1964303
B siyata d’shemaya, just had a class on Hillul Hashem. Definition giuven by the Rav –
H H = If people see someone who learned Torah and they think his behavior did not become more refined or, worse, became worse. Then, they project these behaviors on Torah. So, all you need to ask – how would someone who sees my actions think about them?
example from Chulin – R Pinchas b’ Yair forces the river to let him cross because he is on the way to a great(est) mitzva – pidyon shevuyim (while river claims it is also doing ratzon Hashem and does it right!). He then tells the river to let the next Jew to pass because he is carrying wheat for matzah (a less urgent mitzva). Then, he also tells river to pass for an Arab businessman who joined them on the trip. Gemora’s conclusion – miracle akin to splitting the sea is performed so that a non-Jew will not say that Jews abandoned him on the trip. So, be considerate to other people on a plane, that’s all I am saying.April 13, 2021 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1964500
@AAQ, I too reguarly discuss game plans with Lawyers and CPAs but do I disscus what case law the lawyer should cite? not at $300-500 an hour, I keep the conversations brief and to the topic.
I did ask two Rabbonim about the isssue of maris ayin and I was told unequivocally that if two secular laws confict [ie ADA and CDC guidlines] the halacha of maris ayin does not apply, I didnt get into a whole give and take with them because I imagined they were charging me $500 an hour.
“So, be considerate to other people on a plane, that’s all I am saying.” 100% agree be considerate and respectful to everyone not just on a plane, but in the parking lot, supermarket, shul, restaurant etc. including those who chose not to enforce the mask rules in shuls stores etc.April 13, 2021 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1964574CTLAWYERParticipant
I just read your comment about keeping discussions short when they cost $300-500 per hour.
I currently have a female divorce client (not Jewish) who has been very talkative running up a large bill at a fee in excess of the numbers you posted. It is not unusual for upset clients to attempt to use their divorce lawyers as therapists, but this was really extreme.
Yesterday, she was sitting with her mother in the waiting room before our appointment. My granddaughter was at the reception desk and overheard the client’s mother telling her: ‘remember to bend CTL’s ear, your husband is stuck paying the lawyer according to your prenup, this will leave less money for him.’
My granddaughter shot me an email with the info before showing the client in. I attended to our business in 30 minutes. When the client attempted to stretch, I told her that she should hire a therapist, but she would not be running up my bill to harm her spouse. If she didn’t she could find a new attorney. She seemed shocked that I wasn’t interested in a bigger fee. I explained that I would not help her perpetrate a fraud. She shut her mouth and left, but stopped at the desk to make another appointment to sign papers next week.April 13, 2021 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1964608☕️coffee addictParticipant
👍April 13, 2021 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #1964655
CTLAWYER, this is Kiddush Hashem even if she is not happy with you.
Common, here I take back my analogy (as it was mine, I can take it back :). You seem generally look at psak as the Army discipline issue – go ask a Rav, “yes sir”. Hashem gave us a mitzva of learning Torah so that we refine our intellect and midos, and learn to restrain ourselves (Beitza 25). So, use an opportunity to learn the issue when asking.
2nd “the cow wants to nurse more than the calf to eat (Pesachim 112). So, surely your Rav wants to teach even as you don’t want to learn.
3rd, halakha WANTS individuals to be able to make decisions, instead of relying on lawyers. That is why we often have simple halakhic rules, such as you can take a chicken if he is 50 amot away from a house (Bava Basra 23). Incidently, this rule is so important that Rav Yirmiyahu, who tried “AAQ” this rule (“what if only one leg is within 50 amot”) was kicked out of the beit midrash until they needed him again many years later. Menachem Elon, Israeli supreme justice, writes that this is core difference between Roman/English/American law, where it is up to the victim to sue – caveat emptor, and Jewish law, where it is a responsibility of an individual to always make sure he is doing thing correctly and not injuring others.April 16, 2021 8:49 am at 8:49 am #1965327
@AAQ, nothing personal but I can’t figure out what you are trying to say in your rambling response, you asked if a Rav will pasken that there is no issue with maris ain if one utilizes right given that one is gicen under secular law and I was told there is no issue, unlike you I dont tailor a psak to fit my agenda if I was told there was I would have accepted it.
What has came to light since then about this particular episode is that the flight crew was told at the gate and upon boarding the aircraft that the son suffers from ASD and attends a special ed school and wont be wearing a mask, the flight crew ignored them, violations of ADA results in a $75,000 fine for the first violation and $150,000 each additional violation, it does not look good for Spirit in spite of me being a shareholder, if I was a Spirit manager I would be contacting @CTLawyer and try to hustle a settlementApril 18, 2021 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1965599
common – I was talking about a person here who suggested that he has a (hidden?) medical reason not to wear a mask, and that is where I suggested it is bettter, lhathila, not travel because how it all looks.
I was not there with that kid. He might well have been within his rights. There was also a father who lowered his mask in order to talk to the crew. Maybe he became very agitated, I don’t know.
Please clarify the psak you got – do you mean generally to use ADA, or specifically with Covid when people might think that a Jew is disregarding the rules? I have no problem with the former.April 18, 2021 8:15 am at 8:15 am #1965666
@AAQ, my question was both a general and a specific, if there is a confict betweeen two secular laws ie rights under ADA vs Covid compliance does the concept of maris aryin come into play.
The answer is a clear NO, Maris ayin only comes into play in regards to halacha not secular law.
I once told you the story about a vistor who walk down the street in Antwerp on shabbos wearing a tallis not knowing there was a community moray to not wear a tallis in public, a car drove up to him and he rolled down the window and yelled Yungerman Chillul Hashem, now who was making the chillul hashem, the guy wearing the tallis or the guy driving a car on shabbos?April 18, 2021 9:02 am at 9:02 am #1965682
common, if you want to be technical, this is maris ayn about halacha of endangering someone’s lives. People will be thinking that you are not careful about human lives. When I walk on Shabbos, first person out of a shul without mask, I guess might get benefit of doubt that he has an ADA psak, but not the fifth!
More generally, the question is, as I quoted the class above: “If people see someone who learned Torah and they think his behavior did not become more refined or, worse, became worse. Then, they project these behaviors on Torah”.
So, IN CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES, when people make assumptions about groups based on individual behaviors (see some idiots punching Chinese grandmothers) and already information about Jews non-complying, then surely looking Jewish and looking non-compliant is hillul Hashem.
I would be interested to hear why it is not a problem, according to your Rav, you or anyone else.
So, this person should take additional precautions both against virus and hillul Hashem –
travel less, isolate or test before travel, wear an ADA sign, wear a shield, apologize and explain to neighbors in the planeApril 18, 2021 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1965688
you never answered my question about Antwerp
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