Still Fuming At Rabbi Belsky And Mishpacha

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  • #621377

    I’d like to note the similarity between rabbiofberlin’s artificial differentiation between halacha and ‘general interest’ and Moses Mendellsohn’s contention that the Tora does not require any particular beliefs and one is free to decide on ones own. Hashkofas haTora is that Hashem’s will is all inclusive, and the most informed people to guide us are the Gedolei Yisroel, due to their immersion in the study of the Tora and the their greatness in mitzvos and the development of true Tora personalities. They are simply more in tune with Hashem;s will. It has nothing to do with infallibility. Today’s Gedolim are the first to admit their flaws and their comparative stature relative to previous generations. Nobody is claiming to be nevi’im or even to have ruach hakodesh. Just know your place and the quality of your perception.

    #621378

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    When one does not have an answer to a reasonable comment, it is always easy to insult and accuse the questioner of being somethin ignoble. This is what we have come to with Geshmaknestei’s comment. He does not have an answer to my queries, so he makes me out to be Moses Mendellsohn. Nice try but not enough, young man. I m not sure what you man by saying that “the Torah does not require any particular beleifs and one is free to decide on ones’s own”. I have said, quite consistently that , in matters of PSAK and halacha, you must follow your rebbe. This is incontrovertible. In other matters, which are not ruled by halacha, yes, you can follow your own “sechel”. If you think otherwise, then, yes, you have succumbed to the same mindless belief in the infalliblity of gedolim that is prevalent today. Where does it say that gedolim are smarter or know more of the world because of their zidkus or knowledge? This,indeed, is an invention of modern times. And, pray tell me,which gedolim are you championing? I bet it is not Rav kook, or Rav zvi Hirsch kalisher or Rav shlomo Goren,even the gerrer rebbes and vishnitzer rebbes, who had quite a different view of Eretz yisorel than the Gedolim you follow.

    MY point is consistent. In matters of halacha, you must abide by your rebbe’s rules. In other matters , I will not leave my sechel at the door.

    And, Pashute Yid, I do rememeber that psak on aveilus. Shame on the Psak givers.

    #621379

    Matisyohu28
    Member

    I find it hilarious that someone would translate emunas chachamim as ‘believe of the sages’, because that really doesn’t mean anything.

    The baryonim, were wrong because they went against daas torah – they thought they were right, and they thought they were doing the ratzon hashem. Now, according to norman lamm’s idea, which, I challenge you to find me in any sefer ever written, (not those written by lamm, obviusly), the baryonim were correct – they followed their OPINION on what daas torah was(so rabbiofberlin would say they werent wrong, after all, they had a sevara, and isnt that what’s most important, svara? we cant just blindly follow people like rabban yochanan ben zakkai after all) – now, they disobeyed chachamim, but accoding to norman lamm, they did no such thing – after all, they may have had faith in sages, whateevr that means(I’m really waiting for someoene to define that for me, what can it possibly mean? faith in the ‘idea’ that sages are right? or what? i mean, come on, for a concept in our emunah which is so omnipresent in torah literature, it must mean something which, well, i dont know, the seforim describing it say it means)

    So according to mr lamm, the baryonim were not guilty of disobeying the sages, since they had a svara, and im sure if you asdked them they would come up with some sort of psak about it, and their only crime was being wrong in judgment, which they would not have been if they listened to the sages.

    Dont you see how ridiculous this is?

    In every generation, tghere is always a nisayon. Something which challenges us to have emunah in our leaders, to look to those who are closest to hashem for guidance; first it was avodah zara in the bayis rishon era, then it was tzedukim in the bayis sheni, karaism during galus bavel/yishmael, reform/conservative/haskalah tides in europe, and countless other threats to our people – they guided us through all that, not to mention leading us during WWII; dont you think it’s the least we owe them, to have respect for them, and keep our arrogant mouths shut, being modeh to those who are above us?

    If one wishes to argue with the chachamim, my answer to them, is to beocme one – become a rosh yeshiva, a posek, learn for years, have the vigorous lives these gedolim led and lead, open a ketzos instead of your laptop, and then, when you have your own yeshiva and your own daas torah, then you may argue, but by then you’ll agree with them, becauyse you will have seen how right they were all along.

    If you were taking your child to have an operation, you would make sure the doctor was trustworthy and knowledgeable in his field, to say the least. You also would not be foolish enought o rely on your own daas in that field, since you know practically nothing compared to the doctor – you certainly would not be dumb enough to take the scalpal away from the doctor and operate in your own, unless of course, you felt that you couldn’t trust the doctor, nevermind his years of education and experience.

    Same thing here – we, are not anywehre near the madrega of the gedolim – we think we are, which is probably the greatest indication that we are not, but anyway, we think we know torah well enought o argue with the ‘doctors’ so to speak – and in the end, we end up wanting to do surgery on uor own, which results in norman lamm’s baseless idea, and letters to a website from a man who violates the words of pirkei avos(no surprise then, that he feels comfortable arguing with Rav Belsky) putting down gedolei yisroel.

    Gaiva is a poison indeed, and it will lead an otherwhise intelligent person to insanity – all because humans(especially us) have a teva to not admit wrongdoing, or being wrong in one’s opinions.

    No one’s talking about questioning gedolim – lo habayshan lomayd. It’s fine to question – to the rov, in order to learn, not behind his back to your balabatishe pals; writing this kind of lashon hora and sinas chinum befarhesya, all while thinking one is correct over a gadol, has nothing to do with wanting to learn. It stems from a feeling that these people feel they have more knowledge than the gedolim, or that they are superior to them in their opinions. People with this attitude think that they are doing what is right for klal yisroel..but rememebr, so did th baryonim, and it was as clear to them as it is to you that the gedolim are wrong and you are right – it’s a nisayon to humble one’s self to daas torah, but it is a chiyuv, and a part of being a ben torah.

    Also, I did not say rabbiofberlin was an apikores – sounidng like an apikores has little to do with being one – I was pointing out that apikorsim have a similar if not identical outlook.

    Pashuteh yid – you are mistaken. Many people do not sleep in the sukkah, because of the heterim in the shulchan aruch – the controversy with the rebbe had nothing to do with that, he made up a new reason, saying that lubavitcers do not have to sleep in a sukkah, with zero halachik reasoning; he said that they were patur because they are lubavitchers. That is not the heter of the shulchan aruch. That has nothing to do with it being cold outside or the other heterim. the shalosh seudos issue was similar – he changed halacha, and this was part of the reason why so many were against him – it should be known though that rav avugdor miller zt’l said that all of this happened after the rebbe was no longer in his right mind. He himself was a good man – however, the opposition to him was based on outlandish things he said after not being in his right mind(case in point, his quote that a rebbe is ‘the essence of g-d in a body’, which is pure kefirah) – his chassidim did not pick up on this, or they were afraid to oppose him, whatevrt it may be, he himself did not make these mistakes, and it is unfortunate that so many terrible things were and are being done in his name that he was not responsible for.

    Rav Hutner famously said, after these and other things came to light in chabad, “Chachmah, Binah, and Daas, they say! Yes, but of course they have no sechel”

    The rebbe also said that bais moshiach will be at 770 – you do not have to be a lamdan to be shocked by this, since I am shocked by it, and his other statements, and I am no lamdan.

    The satmar Rov in divrei yoel(parshas tzav) calls him, and his followers, tipeshim for believing that moshiach will come when the whole world learns chassidus(since the besht said that moshiach will come ‘when your torahs spread out’, however this was clearly meant relative to that time, as the gemora says about one of the tannaim who met eliyahu hanavi and the latter told him that moshiach is coming today, when he didnt come, eliyahu replied ‘today, if you listen to the torah’)

    (of course, I meant nothing against the rebbe himself, but only his statements and ideas after he, according to Rav Miller, was no longer in his right mind)

    #621380

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    TO, I can only try.

    Actually, i had a wonderfu ltiem in all my yeshivos, which are quite varied, incidentally. This does not change my view of the roshei yeshivo trying to contorl their talmidim, which is OK !!!. It is just that I do not have to follow blidnly. SO, if Rav Beslky shelita has a view on Chabad, I do not have to agree with him. And, incidentally, all chassidim do believe in the infalliblity of THEIR rebbe, includng chabad. This does not mean that other chasidim must feel the same way.

    As far as the second issue (not wanying to admit their mistakes), i will not name names or even mention shittos, but do you beleive that the gedolim of pre-war were right in their refusal to tell people not to go to Eretz ysroel? Do you think that the gedolim of today will admit that thier opposition to a “medinah’ was a mistake? I know you will say that they were right and all of us who are Zionists are wrong. Thas Ok too, but the facts belie this refusal to recognize a new era. Thank you for your offer, maybe i will take it up later.

    #621382

    thinkfact
    Member

    OP, RabbiofBerlin, Pushite yid,

    Sticking to the facts the whole facts and nothing but the facts.

    Can any of you clearly define a difference between TODAY’S “X-badism”(please note the capitalized qualification) and Paul’s version of xtianity ?

    Personally, after perusing their official and unofficial publications I can not.

    Thus, I believe the article is mereley an explanation of the conclusion that must be reached upon honest evaluation of the evidence.

    Sorry, but thems the (sad) facts.

    TO PUSHITE YID:

    PAUL KEPT THE “MITZVOS”. HIS VERSION OF XTIANITY DIEFIED YOSHKO BUT KEPT THE OTHER 612 MITZVOS.

    #621383

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Matisjohu has an enormous posting and it is too late to answer every item one by one.

    Just one very simple question : why do you always think we have to follow YOUR gedolim?

    To me, Rav Kook was a giant, a Godol and his shittah is absolutely correct. Do you dney me they right to believe this? To me, the Lubavircher rebbe was the greatest Jew in his generation. Do you deny me the right to believe in what he said and actually paskened? Do you really believe that “the Gedolim guided us” during WW II? And,lastlyfor now, Rav Hutner zz’l was niftar in 1980. I don’t believe, for one moment, that there was any kind of “meshichistus” (your words) at that time. So, this quote is obviously either false or has nothing to do with chabad at this time. I’ll try to answer his long message at a later date.

    #621384

    Joseph
    Participant

    Matisyahu, Harav Hutner ztl was niftar long before the Lubavitcher Rebbe. The Rebbe was not well for so long?

    #621386

    Matisyohu28
    Member

    Joseph, I am not going to say anything about Rav Hutner that I have not seen said by him – if you want to know, ask his talmidim. I do know however, that he said this quote. Whether or not he said it during the time when the rebbe was in his right mind really does not matter to me; he said it, and that’s the end of it. Rav Avigdor Miller was the one who was dan lechaf zchus him, remember that, there were those, like the satmar rov, who did not hold that way. I am not on that madrega, and I am being cautious.

    Now, re; rav kook – it does not matter to me if you think he was a gadol; the consensus of EVERY other authority was that he was not, or rather, he was a huge talmid chacham, but went off with his zionism. The chofetz chaim held very little of him, as did the brisker rov, reb ahron, reb elchonon, the gerrer rebbe, the satmar rov, and a huge roster of people you know basically nothing of.

    You want the gedolim to admit their mistake about the medina – this operates under the assumption that they were mistaken. I forgot of course, that you know more than them. forgive me. Please, tell me who is mistaken – a man who writes about how holy mechalel shabbos soccer players are, because they buy real estate for the sake of a nationalistic entity, which in the words of rav avigdor miller, was the worst thing to ever happen to the jewish people ever(the brisker rov said the same thing), or the entire spectrum of the frum world with the exception of one man who after making the wrong decision was denounced as a rasha and an apikores, at the very elast, by pinacles of shmiras halashon and ahavas yisroel. Rav Kook had no answers to the clear proofs against zionism that the religious zionists churned out – neither do you, and neither did rabbi zimmerman, lamm, rav soleveitchik, or anyone else – did you ever learn vayoel moshe? it should take care of whatever garbage ideas about zionism or the great avodah zara called the medina that you hold above the gedolim.

    I wonder what you would say if rav kook was not a zionist…perhaps then, you would take the medina over all the gedolim, after all, acccording to rabbiofberlin-ism, we dont need to listen to the gedolim, but rather we must worship the mighty and holy mind, the individual thinker, the arrogant, secular thinker who thinks for himself(based on what his desires tell him)!

    Also, for the record, rav kook would never have agreed with your ideas about emunas chachamim – he also, for the record, wanted women not to vote, and had tznius standards found in hardly any kehilos today, which Im sure you disagree with, being an independent thinker, however this does not stop religious zionist amharatzim from quoting him, without followinh him on his other shitos. They then, become tremendous, irrational machmirim when it comes to things like aliyah(a secular, nationalistic idea which rapes the idea of true yishuv haaretz by instead using it as a ploy to support the medina), and irrational, illogical maikilim when it comes to tznius and women’s ‘rights’, based on, for the record, no shitos(as in, there are no shitos that women can learn gemora, and certainly, rav kook never would have allowed such a thing)

    Even though he was a huge talmid chacham; so was korach, and many other poeple who were mistaken. Reb elchonon called him an apikores, the satmar rov said it was assur to read his seforim; you want to follow that shita? well, research the machlokes, if there even was one, and you will see how wrong he was; except rav kook had far more respect for the gedolim than you, especially rav zonnefeld(perhaps the most anti-zionist in the old yishuv), even after the zionism issue.

    You blindly follow rav kook – do you know what he based his shitos on? I doubt it. Because any halachik notion he and the entire mizrachi establishment have thought up have been successfully defeated, easily at that. This is because the soton works on emotions mostly, and not reason, so all you have to do is put the fear of holocuasts in a jw’s heart and you’ll have him belieing in the medina(which im sure, like your fellow zionist buddies, you’d ‘die for’, right?)

    The odd thing is, most religious zionists will fall into two groups:

    A) those who defame universally accepted gedolim, like the brisker rov, reb ahron, rav shach, reb elchonon, and many others who were anti-zionist, especially the satmar rov zt’l. They only defame him the most because he was the only one who wrote a comprehensive sefer on zionism, based on stories which are unverifiable, as well as quotations which are either non-existant or totally misunderstood.

    B) when they realize they cant defame them, either because they have some conscious and cannot bring themselves to lie or spread slander, they then begin trying to make it seem like these gedolim were in fact zionists(i once heard on arutz sheva that they claimed that the satmar rov advocated zionism for goyim..feh)

    C) ‘divrei elokim chaim’–ists – people who have enough sechel to acknowledge and respect such gedolim, and who say ‘well, we disagree with their shita , and instead we follow rav kook’

    C is perhaps the dumbest of all, since the basic idea of eilu veilu, is that you cannot have that concept when one claims the other is wrong. Basically, this means that if Rov A says that rov B is an apikores, that is no longer eli veilu. This idea only works when one may be followed factually, but we say the other was right, because he used torah methodology to reach his conclusion, hence, even though he was factually wrong, he is still ‘right’ in the sense that his ideas were divine.

    This is best shown in the gemora which has a shita that moshiach is not coming – obvbiously, we do not hold like this, and it is factually wrong, but it is still divrei elokim chaim, because it was derived through torah methodology.

    Zionism, is different. It is a secular, idolatrous(in the words of reb elchonon) movement which some people misguidedly tried to make religious(also reb elchonon, they added religion to avodah zara), with faulty proofs from the torah and a lack of answers to the clear disproofs from the torah, then if a rov comes up with a shita, which the gerrer rebbe said came from ‘rav kook’s ahavas yisroel’, which howver is incorrect, then it is no longer eilu veilu, but simply wrong.

    PLease, read vayoel moshe – I can almost guarantee any tainah you have is in there, or if not, it is too elementary to even be dealt with by such an advanced sefer. Also recommended is kovetz ma’amarim by reb elchonon, and michtavim uma’amarim from rav shach.

    #621387

    Matisyohu28
    Member

    joseph, I just checked – rav hutner was niftar in 1980, and the rebbe was niftar in 95 i think; according to rav miller, he was not well in his mind during the last 20-25 years of his life, so this makes sense. Even thoguh this stuff began way before then, however rav miller was being dan lechaf zchus him.

    #621388

    Matisyohu28
    Member

    rabbiofberlin; meshechist-ism began as early as the 60’s. It spiraled out of control later on though, but the beginnings of it were everywhere; just because they werent controlling 770 outwardly then does not mean they did not eist.

    I have absolutely no idea where you got this idea from; you probably werent too old in 1980 anyway, if you think this.

    #621392

    cantoresq
    Member

    I find it hilarious that someone would translate emunas chachamim as ‘believe of the sages’, because that really doesn’t mean anything.

    The baryonim, were wrong because they went against daas torah – they thought they were right, and they thought they were doing the ratzon hashem. Now, according to norman lamm’s idea, which, I challenge you to find me in any sefer ever written, (not those written by lamm, obviusly), the baryonim were correct – they followed their OPINION on what daas torah was(so rabbiofberlin would say they werent wrong, after all, they had a sevara, and isnt that what’s most important, svara? we cant just blindly follow people like rabban yochanan ben zakkai after all) – now, they disobeyed chachamim, but accoding to norman lamm, they did no such thing – after all, they may have had faith in sages, whateevr that means(I’m really waiting for someoene to define that for me, what can it possibly mean? faith in the ‘idea’ that sages are right? or what? i mean, come on, for a concept in our emunah which is so omnipresent in torah literature, it must mean something which, well, i dont know, the seforim describing it say it means)

    So according to mr lamm, the baryonim were not guilty of disobeying the sages, since they had a svara, and im sure if you asdked them they would come up with some sort of psak about it, and their only crime was being wrong in judgment, which they would not have been if they listened to the sages.

    Dont you see how ridiculous this is?

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    That is a very interesting read on the gemara in Gittin. But the gemara never says that the chachamim would have been successful in hteir suit for peace. Moreover, look a further on the daf. R. Yochanan was unsuccessful in his negoationd with Vespasian. In fact Vepasian talked R. Yochanan into silence whcih was interpreted to be Divine intervention. Then when Vespasian told r. Yochanan to make a request, all he sought was Yavneh and its sages, not Jerusalem as it forgone that Jerusalem would fall. So I reject your selective reasding of that gemara.

    Moreover, how DARE you refer to a gadol b’Yisrael as Mr.? You are an imbecile incapable of even reading a Gemamra straight. And you have the inmitigated gall to insult a gadol? Shame on you.

    #621394

    Yussel
    Participant

    With regard to any disrespect shown in the “Yeshivish” world towards Rav Soloveitchik, I think he brought much of that on himself. The Rav was not shy about voicing opinions HE KNEW to be unpopular in the “frum velt”. Just read some of his musings in his lectures about the “Mizrachi”. How about his endorsement of teaching Gemara to girls? How about his refusal to sign on the ban dealing with the New York Board of Rabbis?

    Perhaps the “frum velt” went too far (such as calling him JB). But the fact remains that he publicly went against his own family traditions, so I don’t think we should be too shocked at the reaction.

    #621395

    mariner
    Member

    thinkfact, you are technically correct, paul kept the mitzvos, though the deifying is put into question by many historians. it seems that in all likelihood, all he did was claim jesus to be the messiah, which is more like meshichistos today.

    it was peter that later on went and moved christianity away from judaism for good, bringing the religion to the surrounding paganistic cultures of the time. he was the one to get rid schitah, bris, etc. but even at that time, they still kept shabbos on saturday. there is a story that has been around that peter was sent in to the religion to move it away due to its danger to judaism by the tanaim, and that peter was actually a tana himself, and on his deathbed he wrote nishmas, to show that all he did was for the sanctification of hakodosh baruch hu, and so that the dangers of chrisitanity being so close to judaism would no longer be an issue.

    #621396

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    All of my “baalei machlokes”, I think, are missing the point. Rav Belsky shelita wrote an article, very critical of chabad. Regardless of its intrisic merits, Rabbi Silverberg has the absolute right to question Rav Belsky. He has his own rebbes to follow and it is surely within his rights to follow whomever he wants. Hence, all the “sturm und drang” (look it up) about his attack on Rav Beslky is meaningless. He has his own rebbes on this. Rav Belsky has the right to question Chabad too, although I do believe he is wrong. This brought us to the debate at hand.Can you, EVER, question a Godol or a prominent Rov or Rosh yeshiva? On this, I have said to all the other “posters’ that there is NOT such a concept of ‘daas torah’ ,that you cannot question anything a Rov or Godol says.

    Matisjohu, “I can only try ” and all the others disagree. My challenge to them is twofold. First, where do you find, in the past, that people could not question a Rov or Godol on “milei de-alma” ,matters of general interest, and second, possibly more direct, WHICH godol are you following? The majority of “posters’ are following the litvishe roshei yeshiva. I follow Rav Kook. Does that make me an apikoros? Say I follow the Lubavitcher rebbe, does that make me a meshichist? My point is that everyone is entitled to follow his own chosen rebbe,without being accsued of thre sins of Israel.

    As far as all the examples of the past. No one was there at the time of the bayis to know how the debate unfolded between rav Jochana ben zakkai and the others. History proved Rabbi Jochanan ben zakkai correct. Does that make rabbi Akiva, who supported the Bar Kochva REVOLT AGAINST the Romans,unworhty? not at all. Every tannah had his own opinion and only the results were the proof of the correctness of the shittah. Remember, the CHashmonoim also revolted- not unlike what the biryionim wanted- and they were succesfull. Does that make them biryonim? Not at all.

    It is within the purview of every Godol and also of each individual jew to act according to his understanding in life. Halacha is different, as I noted.

    Lastly, the attempt to portray Cahbad as another x-ian sect is despicable and ignoble. It merits the full condmenation of every jew.

    As noted, paul CHANGED the whole of the mesorah. He abolsihed milah, moadim,etc..To even hint at a similar way is truly “motzi shem ra”. The discussion about moshiach is complicated and, although I do not believe that the rebbe was moshiach, we still do not know exactly how moshiach will enter our history. For all I know, Herzl was moshiach. After all, he gave Eretz ysroel back to the Yidden! (I am going to relish the comments on this!!!)

    #621397

    The aptly named rabbiofberlin keeps bring up the Holocaust as the basis for his rejection of the Gedolim’s guidance in worldly matters. So 20th century!! The Tora itself is quite clear on the punishment of a generation that doesn’t follow his will, and that even tzaddikim can be punished at such times. The gemara inChelek says clearly that if klal yisroel doesn’t do teshuva then Hashem brings a melech like Haman. I think Hitler fits the bill. His rise to power was clearly yad Hashem not a natural event. It logically follows then that the correct response is teshuva not running to America, where the same unnatural punishment would still be possible.

    #621398

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Charlie Brown, I am not familiar with any special psak about Lubavitchers and Sukkah or Shalosh Seudos. I will try to ask a Lubavitcher directly. (BTW, doesn’t the reason you propose sound eerily like the reason the yeshivishe velt didn’t encourage the establishment of the State of Israel, because it was too holy.)

    Matisyohu, your words insulting Norman Lamm are totally out of place. What ever happened to the Mishnah of Hamevazeh Talmidei Chachamim in Chelek? Why do you think you have a heter to insult a big Talmid Chochom who has semicha from one of the gedolei hador(Reb Yoshe Ber), just because you are from a different hashkafah? What is your hava amina that the gedolim from your circles are bigger than gedolim from other circles? WHy does giving respect to gedolim only apply to the ones who you hand pick, and not to others. Why do we not all have the right to hand pick gedolim and insult the ones we disagree?

    This, my friend, is why we are still in golus. It is not like I made it up, it is in the gemara and called sinas chinom. The only aveirah of Rabbi Lamm and YU is that they teach secular knowledge. Sorry, but there is no halachic basis for any issur on learning secular knowledge. It is simply a frum (and meaningless) thing to knock it. Did you know that the Mishnah Brura paskens one can use a telescope on Shabbos to learn the chochma of astronomy? The gemara in Sanhedrin says one needed to know 70 languages to be appointed to Sanhedrin. The Rambam says that anything proven scientifically byond a doubt has the halachic status of divrei neviim.

    The fact is that in the 20th century the world advanced, and one needs advanced secular knowledge to function and make a parnasa. I have much trouble and indeed it has affected my emunas chachamim in understanding the vehement opposition to secular knowledge by the gedolim of this generation. I think it is a major mistake, and is causing kids to go off the derech because of the vacuum. Mishnah in Kesuvos says even a wealthy wife with a gazillion servants still needs to do some work, or she will turn to immoral activities. Why did the mishnah not say she should join a tehillim group, or learn tanach with all her free time? The answer is that the pressure of work and deadlines, etc. in the real world does a person a lot of good in keeping him focused.

    It is a new thing that we make fun of secular studies, and try to turn back the clock to the time we all rode on horses. I personally think the gedolim have made a huge mistake in judging the nature of this century by screaming aganst college. In Israel they scream against secualr studies past 8th grade! Yet I will never insult them. I have strong questions, but I treat them with derech eretz, and try my hardest to be dan them lchaf zchus and understand a rationale for what they say. I will be going to speak with my Rebbeim one of whom is mishpacha of Reb SHmuel Kamenetsky, and the oher is Talmid muvhak of Reb Leizer Silber and mechaber of 11 sefarim on shas to try to understand what to make of this sad situation. I personally can’t make heads or tails, and it seems so obvious that the current system is totally messed up. Why do I get letters from chareidi yungerleit asking for tzedaka which are signed by the very same rabbonim who assur college and prevent these people from making parnasa in the first place? Yet the biggest mitzvah is to insult YU because they teach secular studies.

    #621399

    rabbiofberlin,

    the brisker rov zt”l who was niftar before Rav Hutner zt”l said that the rebbe thinks he’s moshiach. It wasn’t out in the open yet, but our gedolim were able to foresee what was coming.

    #621400

    Rav Balser
    Member

    BS”D

    Though I am totally against all the angry posts here, and anger and vitriol does not belong in these blogs, I wish to say that I agree 100% with HaRav Belsky, shlita.

    All of the positive things which may or may not have been done, said, or accomplished by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Z”L, and his shluchim, does not take away from the facts that Rav Belsky was stating.

    I have been around for years now, and have met the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and have lived through all the controversies. The rest of klall Yisroel were not “anti-chabad” until Chabad was poresh themselves from us. Still today, the vast majority of those who oppose Chabad are not “anti-chabad.” However, Chabad in their separatist and defensive attitudes scream: “Anti-Chabad” or “Chabad Hater” on anyone who has a difference of opinion and has the nerve to voice it. Chabad today wants everyone to agree with them.

    If I go into a Yeshivish kehilla, I find acceptance, and no one tries to say their way is the “right way.”

    If I go into Bobov, I find acceptance, and no one tries to say their way is the “right way.”

    If I go into Pupa, I find acceptance, and no one tries to say their way is the “right way.”

    If I go into Mir, I find acceptance, and no one tries to say their way is the “right way.”

    If I go into Satmar, I find acceptance, and no one tries to say their way is the “right way.”

    Only in Lubavitch does everyone try to “witness” to me, and try to change me. Only in Lubavitch do people get angry if I resist their attempts at “conversion.”

    I stop in a non-Chabad Chassidishe kehilla for Shabbos, and there are plenty of people who invite me for Shabbos, and I meet many people to sit down and learn with.

    I stop in a Litvish/Yeshivish kehilla for Shabbos, and there are plenty of people who invite me for Shabbos, and I meet many people to sit down and learn with.

    I stop in a Chabad kehilla for Shabbos, and there are plenty of people who invite me for Shabbos, but all they want to learn with me is Tania, or their rebbe’s sichos. Their version of Chassidus seems to be the only thing worth learning.

    I stop in a non-Chabad Chassidishe kehilla or a Yeshivish kehilla for Shabbos, and there are plenty of people who invite me for Shabbos, and the food in their pantries is all heimishe, Bishul Yisroel, with very reliable shechitas and hashgachas.

    I stop in a Chabad kehilla or a Yeshivish kehilla for Shabbos, and there are plenty of people who invite me for Shabbos, and the food in their pantries is mostly major brands, or supermarket brands. They use every heter imaginable to allow Bishul Akum.

    What is funny, is that they will use the OU tuna cans that are kosher due to Rav Belsky’s “heter.” (Rav Belskly paskinned that canned food does not need to be bishul Yisoroel. He is sort of a daas yochid on that one.) Jewish Bishul Yisroel will be on the store shelves, but the Chabad shaliach’s home is full of Heinz, Bumble Bee, etc.

    Now that Kemach Yoshon is easily available, and most rabbonim say the heterim of the past need to be reexamined, and we should be more machmir now that it is easy to avoid chodosh, Chabad will davka tell the bakeries to use chodosh! They don’t care that this means other non-Chabad people now feel uncomfortable eating from the only kosher bakery in their town!

    There is an arrogance in Chabad lately that is beyond imagination. Chabad basically feels that if they say something is permissible, it is good for anyone. They don’t care that your rov told you NO. He does not count to them. Apparently you don’t count either. Either accept their heterim of “tough luck.”

    I love Chabad, actually. I have many good Chabad friends. But, Rav Belsky is right.

    Yes, I disagree with some of Rav Belsky’s heterim, ie. DA cows, and Bishul Akum, but on this one he is dead on.

    I know I did not address his issues, he already was clear on those, and I agree with all of them. I just wanted to show the arrogance which demonstrates their pulling themselves out of Klall Yisroel.

    #621401

    cantoresq
    Member

    With regard to any disrespect shown in the “Yeshivish” world towards Rav Soloveitchik, I think he brought much of that on himself. The Rav was not shy about voicing opinions HE KNEW to be unpopular in the “frum velt”. Just read some of his musings in his lectures about the “Mizrachi”. How about his endorsement of teaching Gemara to girls? How about his refusal to sign on the ban dealing with the New York Board of Rabbis?

    Perhaps the “frum velt” went too far (such as calling him JB). But the fact remains that he publicly went against his own family traditions, so I don’t think we should be too shocked at the reaction.

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I see. So a gadol in Torah can only be one who “tows the party line.” Conceptions of truth, and honest debate about G-d’s will have no place. It’s doctrine doctrine doctrine that means everything. Your’s is a sick understanding of Judaism.

    #621402

    Yussel
    Participant

    cantoresq: I read your post and was going to write that I am in agreement, until I read your last line. Why do you feel the need to engage in personal attacks?

    #621403

    mariner
    Member

    for a change i completely agree with cantoresq. unlike Yussel, i was going to blast him until i read the bottom, and realized he was quoting someone. he is dead on, nowadays there is no room for debate. the fact that harav yoshe Ber ran circles around the “rabbonim” of his day is completely ignored. in the us there was no one like him, maybe except his brother, reb ahron. now understand that he was around before his cousin, rav moshe, and his close chaver, reb ahron soleveitchik were here. remember he STARTED agudas yisroel of america! it is when the hungarian chassidim came to america, and started flexing their muscles in agudah, that he went his separate ways. like reagan said about the dems, i didn’t leave the democratic party, the democratic party left me, so he felt. Rav soleveithchik didn’t leave aguda, aguda left him. his halchik decisions about mizrachi and the ny board of rabbis was no differant then say rav moshe’s about chalov stam, and reb yoel teitlebaum about medinas yisroel. they were all toras emes! and anyone who mocks the other is a pure fool. yes you can disagree, as i do with lets say reb yoel teitelbaum who was a goan olam anbout the median, but to say yoele teitlebaum was an idiot fool wearing a fur hat would be chtzpadik, as is calling Harav yoshe Ber – jb.

    on a side note, i was in a seforim store one day, and 2 kids were sitting there making fun of a pictire for sale, the rwere saying, hah its that shack guy, and making spitting sounds. have no clue what was up with that, but i wlked over to stop them. i look at the picture, and lo and behgold, the kids were a bunch of punks, it was rav moshe, i guess the litvishe yarmulka threw their chutpadik tachtonim off. forst i said, your both isdiots, as that is rav moshe feinstein, then i said, what chtzpa do you have irregardless of the fact that it is nt rav shach, to make fun of a man 70-80 years older then you, again irregardless of the fact that he is one of the gedolei yosroel! their answer, our rebbe doesnt like him. i got fuming, and called their yeshiva and without saying which rebbe, that their talmidim, are being chozek rav shach, and they were shocked, and said they would look into it. so the roblem here is not the ppl, but the rebbeim who in shiur smack rabbonim who dont tow the line, like rav yoshe ber, who by the way technically had more talmidim then anyone eles in his generation. (ok, some of them may have gone on to do things that we can call questionable, but not all).

    same goes for rav kook. he was such a tzaddik, that as a bochur, he was the only one the Netziv allowed to wear tefillin all day! the netziv was known to say that if the volozhin yeshiva was only created to teach rav kook, then it would have been worth it. when he came to eretz yisroel many thought he was moshiach, so again, its rabbeim who put nonsense in bochurims heads

    #621404

    Zalman
    Participant

    mariner: just a quick note about your examples. Rav Yoel was in the majority (by far) regarding his position against the establishment of medinas yisroel. That position is the mainstay of torah judaism.

    Also, the Hungarian Rabbonim (like Satmar) actually sat out of the Agudah and never joined it.

    #621405

    “Regardless of its intrinsic merits, Rabbi Silverberg has the absolute right to question Rav Belsky.”

    – No one has disagreed with this. He does not have to agree, and is certainly allowed to speak to and question Rav Belsky, shlita in private (respectfully), or defend his points of view in public (respectfully).

    Also, the concept of “infallibility” is (lfi aniyas dati) not ours. There are, lehavdil, other religions that believe in the perfection of particular men or avoida zoroh, but we believe only H-shem is infallible. The closest one can come are those who are mentioned in Shabbos 55a and 55b as having led lives without a single avaira.

    Gut Voch.

    #621406

    cantoresq
    Member

    Yussel

    Member

    cantoresq: I read your post and was going to write that I am in agreement, until I read your last line. Why do you feel the need to engage in personal attacks?

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Where was this quesion from you when Rabbi Norman Lamm was referred to “Mr. Lamm?” Am I not entitled to defend the kavod of those I know to be gedolim? And on the ote, it’s intereting in the non-chareidi Orthodox world, one will never hear a reference t chareidi gadol in anything other then respectful terms. That applies even to those who isult and delegitimize us the most. They are always referred to as Rav so and so or Harav so and so. It makes me wonder which group actually understands the idea of kavod haTorah.

    #621408

    Mrs. L
    Member

    I have stopped posting my thoughts for quite some time; when I realized that many individuals per posting opinions contrary to our heilige Torah. When I spoke up, somewhat harshly, I got edited out. Sinced then I do not say anything, HOWEVER’ after reading Mattisyahu comments, I see that there are those who will defend Torah and Gedolai Yisroel with a bren. He speaks with a strong conviction, and he will not back off. Good for him and good for us, that there are still such precious Yidden out there. Mattisyahu, please: never weaken you stance. You give the Ribono Shel Olem much nachas.

    #621409

    yochi
    Participant

    Rav Balser,

    you are so wrong. For my job, I travel MOST of the time and I have davened in hundreds of chabads around the world over the las 20 years. To say that they are maykel about bishul yisroel is so false that its sad. Halavay, we in NY would be as makpid as they are in China, Africa etc when they cant even buy most products. You are obviously a liar.

    Yochi, not chabad but a big $uporter

    #621410

    yochi
    Participant

    By the way, I am not a Lubavitcher, but my partner who I am very close to, is a very frum, chabad mishichist. I have spent 1,000 hours discussing these things with him, as we travel weekly around the world.

    I have no problem with him believing that the chabad rebbe is moshiach. I have yet to find a rov who can tell me why its against halacha for someone to have that opinion. Every time someone screams that its against halacha, apikorsis etc and they do not back it up with a mokor, I lose respect for them. Lubabs have all the answeres, yet we are screaming “apikorsis” with NOT EVEN one makor!!!!

    #621411

    mariner
    Member

    yochi, there makor is is based on stretching the words of the rambam, big deal, using their theories anything is possible. i once had this discussion with them, and i asked why not the baal shem tov, or the magid of mezritch, and the chabadsker had no answer. the idea is idiotic, and is absolutely the same as early christianity. there is absolutely no difference in theology between being a mishichist, and being from teh christian era after his death. the only difference, jesus was a tana! he was able to do techias hameisim, and knew the shem hameforosh! so you tell me how rav belsky is wrong with his analysis.

    and her aare two of many proofs that he cant be moshiach, since you claim to never have heard any.

    1. when yaakov saw in the nevuah of dan that shimshon would come from him, he thought he would be the moshiach, until he saw him die, hence a dead person cant be moshiach, at least according to yaakov avinu, but feel free to argue it up wit him.

    2. if you ever read the disputation at barcelona, whic was the ramban’s debate with a heretic priest, he clearly states how the moshiach has to be from our generation, and must fulfill ALL the duties of moshiach before being proclaimed the moshiach.

    3. sefer habris says that someone who starts doing the work of moshiach, and appears to be him, but then dies, he is not, and never was the moshiach.

    i can bring more, but that should suffice.

    #621412

    yochi
    Participant

    Mariner, I am not here to defend lubavitch nor do I have the time to, but your “proofs” are exactly what I am talking about.

    Why the Rebbe and not the Besht, since lubavitvhers say that the rebbe did more for Torah and Yiddishkayt than anyone else, so if this is the dor it would be him. Agree or not agree, its a good answer.

    I do not know enough about this stuff, and you would have to ask a mayven, but let me take a look at the 3 points you made.

    1) In that nevuah, he saw that he dies and the world continued without Moshiach, that is a lot different from this where they say (and I assume all frumme Yidden believe) that Moshiach is coming now. So its too soon to use this proof of yours.

    2) When the Rambam and Ramban argue we follow the Rambam who says clearly that if Moshiach gets killed he cant be Moshiach, not if he dies.

    3)Once again, look into Rambam who says that if Moshiach does not end up coming than he was bchezkas Moshiach as opposed to Moshiach vaday. Look to answer # 1for this.

    I am sure that you can answer my replies with other proofs, but in lubavitch today there are hundreds of rabanim, geonim, roshey yeshiva etc. I see this peopleby simchas and the like. You need to talk to someone knowledgeable, like I did.

    I am not saying that the Rebbe is Moshiach, all I amsaying is live and let live (no pun intended). They have Rabbanim as great as our rabbanim and if you want to say that are mistaken, no problem. But do not say that they are going against halacha, unless you can back that up vs someone who knows his stuff i.e not me.

    All this does not even touch upon the amazing work they do around the world and the fact that the rebbe who I met a few times was a GIANT!!!!!

    #621413

    saythatagain
    Member

    Regarding Zalman’s post: “mariner: just a quick note about your examples. Rav Yoel was in the majority (by far) regarding his position against the establishment of medinas yisroel. “

    that is utter nonsense. Majority of Charedi Jews (and Rabbonim) who lived in E”Y and US adopted the polcies of the Aguda which the Satmar Rav zt”L was strongly against. (and used strong language)

    There are 70 pamin L’ Torah. Today it is impossible for any one group (litvish, chasdish, Eida Hachredis, Yu Derech, etc) to proove that they are the “true” group. People in the camp of the Eida Hachredis hold themselves to be the Torah true Jews, they reject whom the litvish camp calls “Gedolim”. The Litvish camp rejects Chassidim, Chassdim claim that they are the Torah true Jews. Get the picture.

    As long as a group does not deviate from the shulchan aruch (which I know a lot of chabadnicks (not meshchistim) who adhear to the shulchan aruch as much as other chasidim (I won’t comment on zman tefilah) should be treated any differently.

    Satmar want eveyone to recognize the greatness of Satmar, Mirrers want everyone to give their Rosh Yeshiva the most kovod. that’s the way of the world. We just need to respect the righ tof each yid to choose with in the perameters of halacha the drech which fits them. Can anyone proove that Rav Kook was wrong in his opnions on midnat yisrael? no! So let Rav Kooknicks be Rav Kooknicks and Chabad be chabnicks (or Chabkuk a new combination of Chabad, Breslov and Rav Kook) and you be you v’shalom al Yisrael.

    #621414

    Zalman
    Participant

    ms. saythatagain, you are mistaken. See matisyahu28’s comment on the bottom of page 3 of this thread for additional information. Even Agudah was opposed to the establishment of the medinah, as was the vast vast majority of all of Torah Judaism.

    #621417

    cantoresq
    Member

    Zalman

    Member

    ms. saythatagain, you are mistaken. See matisyahu28’s comment on the bottom of page 3 of this thread for additional information. Even Agudah was opposed to the establishment of the medinah, as was the vast vast majority of all of Torah Judaism.

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    And the Agudh was wrong in that stance as was the Satmer Rav z”tl z”ya. The Hakamat haMedinah has done more good for Jews than any other event in Jewish history since the second churban.

    #621419

    Zalman
    Participant

    cantor,

    Matis has debunked that legend. Let me re-quote what he said (on page 3):

    You want the gedolim to admit their mistake about the medina – this operates under the assumption that they were mistaken. I forgot of course, that you know more than them. forgive me. Please, tell me who is mistaken – a man who writes about how holy mechalel shabbos soccer players are, because they buy real estate for the sake of a nationalistic entity, which in the words of rav avigdor miller, was the worst thing to ever happen to the jewish people ever(the brisker rov said the same thing), or the entire spectrum of the frum world with the exception of one man who after making the wrong decision was denounced as a rasha and an apikores, at the very elast, by pinacles of shmiras halashon and ahavas yisroel. Rav Kook had no answers to the clear proofs against zionism that the religious zionists churned out – neither do you, and neither did rabbi zimmerman, lamm, rav soleveitchik, or anyone else – did you ever learn vayoel moshe? it should take care of whatever garbage ideas about zionism or the great avodah zara called the medina that you hold above the gedolim.

    I wonder what you would say if rav kook was not a zionist…perhaps then, you would take the medina over all the gedolim, after all, acccording to rabbiofberlin-ism, we dont need to listen to the gedolim, but rather we must worship the mighty and holy mind, the individual thinker, the arrogant, secular thinker who thinks for himself(based on what his desires tell him)!

    Also, for the record, rav kook would never have agreed with your ideas about emunas chachamim – he also, for the record, wanted women not to vote, and had tznius standards found in hardly any kehilos today, which Im sure you disagree with, being an independent thinker, however this does not stop religious zionist amharatzim from quoting him, without followinh him on his other shitos. They then, become tremendous, irrational machmirim when it comes to things like aliyah(a secular, nationalistic idea which rapes the idea of true yishuv haaretz by instead using it as a ploy to support the medina), and irrational, illogical maikilim when it comes to tznius and women’s ‘rights’, based on, for the record, no shitos(as in, there are no shitos that women can learn gemora, and certainly, rav kook never would have allowed such a thing)

    Even though he was a huge talmid chacham; so was korach, and many other poeple who were mistaken. Reb elchonon called him an apikores, the satmar rov said it was assur to read his seforim; you want to follow that shita? well, research the machlokes, if there even was one, and you will see how wrong he was; except rav kook had far more respect for the gedolim than you, especially rav zonnefeld(perhaps the most anti-zionist in the old yishuv), even after the zionism issue.

    You blindly follow rav kook – do you know what he based his shitos on? I doubt it. Because any halachik notion he and the entire mizrachi establishment have thought up have been successfully defeated, easily at that. This is because the soton works on emotions mostly, and not reason, so all you have to do is put the fear of holocuasts in a jw’s heart and you’ll have him belieing in the medina(which im sure, like your fellow zionist buddies, you’d ‘die for’, right?)

    The odd thing is, most religious zionists will fall into two groups:

    A) those who defame universally accepted gedolim, like the brisker rov, reb ahron, rav shach, reb elchonon, and many others who were anti-zionist, especially the satmar rov zt’l. They only defame him the most because he was the only one who wrote a comprehensive sefer on zionism, based on stories which are unverifiable, as well as quotations which are either non-existant or totally misunderstood.

    B) when they realize they cant defame them, either because they have some conscious and cannot bring themselves to lie or spread slander, they then begin trying to make it seem like these gedolim were in fact zionists(i once heard on arutz sheva that they claimed that the satmar rov advocated zionism for goyim..feh)

    C) ‘divrei elokim chaim’–ists – people who have enough sechel to acknowledge and respect such gedolim, and who say ‘well, we disagree with their shita , and instead we follow rav kook’

    C is perhaps the dumbest of all, since the basic idea of eilu veilu, is that you cannot have that concept when one claims the other is wrong. Basically, this means that if Rov A says that rov B is an apikores, that is no longer eli veilu. This idea only works when one may be followed factually, but we say the other was right, because he used torah methodology to reach his conclusion, hence, even though he was factually wrong, he is still ‘right’ in the sense that his ideas were divine.

    This is best shown in the gemora which has a shita that moshiach is not coming – obvbiously, we do not hold like this, and it is factually wrong, but it is still divrei elokim chaim, because it was derived through torah methodology.

    Zionism, is different. It is a secular, idolatrous(in the words of reb elchonon) movement which some people misguidedly tried to make religious(also reb elchonon, they added religion to avodah zara), with faulty proofs from the torah and a lack of answers to the clear disproofs from the torah, then if a rov comes up with a shita, which the gerrer rebbe said came from ‘rav kook’s ahavas yisroel’, which howver is incorrect, then it is no longer eilu veilu, but simply wrong.

    Please, read vayoel moshe – I can almost guarantee any tainah you have is in there, or if not, it is too elementary to even be dealt with by such an advanced sefer. Also recommended is kovetz ma’amarim by reb elchonon, and michtavim uma’amarim from rav shach.

    #621420

    saythatagain
    Member

    zalman- are you saying that the shita of the Satmar Rav and Agudah are the same? that’s simply not true- their opnions are very different in both theory and application. Have you read the works of the satmar rav and those of the agudah? I have spent much time reading the original works and any one who had knows there is a huge division in hashkafa.

    cantoresq: When making statements like that you should be more careful it take many many years after an event to really know what the outcome was.

    #621422

    mariner
    Member

    zalman, it is well known that rav elchonon never called him an apikores. its a buba meisah. and the netziv, again ill say, and this is documented in the torah temimahs biography of the netziv, that if the holy volozhin yeshiva was only created to be there to teach rav kook, then it would have been enough. the netziv was known to wear teffillin all day, and his talmidim wanted to as well. he never allowed them to. when rav kook asked, he was given the ok, and the netziv told the rest of his talmidim that only a pure yerie shomayim can wear teffilin all day. but then again, the netziv was a nobody according to zalman. only the voyel moshe was ok in his book.

    you want to talk about korach., go look at rashi there, it talks about oy lerosho oy leschaino, and neturei karta, who are mamesh reshoim gamur, besides being mechalelei shabbos, since there are pictures of them carrying on shabbos, using bull horns at a rally in iran, are very close to satmer, and even use yoyoel moshe as their bible for hatred of fellow jews (though their actions put their jewishness into question). and the crc, the satmer hechsher, that puts ads in teh ny times, and has billboards up on highways how medians yisroel isnt jewish, are you going to say this a jewish thing, to air our machlokesin to the goyim? satmer are all nuts, they have gone off the deep end. yes ,reb yoel was a zaddik, but his grandchildren are petty, and cause major chillulei hashem. its all on youtube, go look for it, the supreme court cases, and the stuff they were claiming about eachother. pathetic. this stuff you never see in teh mizrachi movement. all gedolim, even agudist, are considered to them toras emes. they do learn voyel moshe in alot of the mizrachi yeshivos, but i doubt rav kooks seforim are learned in satmer.

    zalmen, youre a fool to think that reb yoel was in the majority, he wasnt. maybe umongst hungarian rebbes, who like to live in 1780. but the litvish mehalech is to go with the present, and that is that the medina exists, and we have to live with it. rov kook was just as big as any godol of his day, only differance was he was a chief rabbi, which has halchic status as a nasi, so his psak held more weight then most. voyoel moshe had a little shtelar in uberland hungary, in waht actually was a litvish town up until ww1. yes he was a huge talmid chochom, but he wasnt a chief rabbi fo anything. his psak went for his chassidim, rav kooks for the entire english mandate of palestine, which actually included jordan as well!

    #621423

    Zalman
    Participant

    mariner:

    Your comment is ridden with errors.

    Above I was quoting Matis, not saying all that myself. (Matis provided more background in his original comment, including what Rav Elchanon ZTV’L said about Rabbi Kook.)

    Neteurei Karta are from the Talmidei Hagra. They are not from the Satmar or an Chasidim for that matter. Hagoen Rav Amrom Blau ZTV’L though was close to the Satmar Rebbe ZTV’L. Your thoughts about them stem from ignorance.

    I am very proud of the ads the Hisachdus puts out making clear to the umos haolam that Zionism is not Judaism. This has nothing to do with those meshuganas who falsely identify themselves today as being Neteurei Karta.

    The reason that the Satmar Rebbe and the Litvishe Gedolim are accepted universally as Gedolim including by the Mizrachi, is simply because they are indisputably Gedolim. The Mizrachi has not produced anyone of the caliber of the Satmar Rebbe, Rav Shach, Rav Elchonan, Rav Elyashev, etc.

    The Satmar Rebbe’s stand regarding the establishment of the medinah was not only the majority, it was almost the universal opinion held by Torah Judaism, including the Agudah and the Litvish Gedolim.

    The “Chief Rabbi” of Eretz Yisroel was Hagoen Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTV’L, not Rabbi Kook, despite his “title”.

    #621424

    Will Hill
    Participant

    mariner, aside from your sheer stupidity and wrongheadedness regarding your comments about satmar, the difference between your petty self and them is that unlike you, they are not on the blogs and going to youtube.

    #621426

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    t.t.t.o. Nah Nah Nah Nah Nah

    you guys are oved avodah zarah

    you guys are oved avodah zarah

    #621427

    Zalman
    Participant

    Here is another part of what he said earlier:

    Now, re; rav kook – it does not matter to me if you think he was a gadol; the consensus of EVERY other authority was that he was not, or rather, he was a huge talmid chacham, but went off with his zionism. The chofetz chaim held very little of him, as did the brisker rov, reb ahron, reb elchonon, the gerrer rebbe, the satmar rov, and a huge roster of people you know basically nothing of.

    #621428

    cantoresq
    Member

    Mariner, I’d like to point out that while Hungarian Jewry, both the Orthodox and Neolog were generally opposed to Zionism, among the Orthodx rabbinate there were two notable exceptions, R. Moshe Aryeh Roth of Papa (where r. Shlomo Breuer was Rav prior to moving to Frankfurt) and R. Moshe Glasner of Kolosvar (Klausenberg). Moreover, the first Mizrachi conference in Hungary took place in 1904 in Pressburg of all places.

    #621429

    cantoresq
    Member

    The reason that the Satmar Rebbe and the Litvishe Gedolim are accepted universally as Gedolim including by the Mizrachi, is simply because they are indisputably Gedolim. The Mizrachi has not produced anyone of the caliber of the Satmar Rebbe, Rav Shach, Rav Elchonan, Rav Elyashev, etc.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    No Zalmen, it’s just that closed minded people refuse to recognize as great anyone who operates outside the small box of what you terms legitimate. For you it’s axiomatic. It is not torah scholarship or actual yirat Shamayim that matters. Rather it’s doctine and the chitzyoinius of dress etc that matter. Answer this question please. Was R. Esriel Hildesheimer a gadol in your eyes? How about the Sridei Eish?

    On a differnet note, do you recall how the Satmer Rav left Hungary in 1944?

    #621430

    i was going to post something serious but i couldn’t bring myself to do so on this leiztanus site. just thought i’d share that.

    #621431

    gedalya
    Member

    I (as a staunch follower of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZY”A) find it important to let everyone out there know that I have personally witnessed many aspects of Harav Belsky Shlita’s gadlus. But above all is his acts of chesed.R’ Belsky goes out of his way to help every and any yid in any way possible. But what is more amazing is the chesed that he does with people belonging to groups that he strongly opposes (e.g. Lubavitch). This is a siman that all his acts are lshem shamayim, and therefore it is not proper for us to speak of him disrespectfully.

    #621432

    Zalman
    Participant

    * [The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means

    Rabbi S. R. Hirsch

    * Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.

    Rabbi S.D. Schneerson

    * [Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.

    Rabbi C. Soloveichik

    * The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.

    Rabbi V. Soloveichik

    Once before the Neila prayer on Yom Kippur Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Mansod said:

    “It is not because they are Zionists that they are evildoers. It is because they are evildoers that they are Zionists.”

    Rabbi Aharon Roth once said:

    “It is a miracle that these evildoers don’t command everyone to put on tefillin. It is possible that were they to do it, G-d forbid, it may be forbidden to put them on.”

    The Chazon Ish once said:

    “If it is hard to understand the whole matter of the Golden Calf, by seeing the matter of the State, one can understand it. The matter of the State is similar to the Golden Calf”

    Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman once said:

    “It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King….I don’t say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place.”

    Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik once said:

    “The Zionists aren’t taking Jews away from Judaism in order to have a State, THEY NEED A STATE IN ORDER TO TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM JUDAISM”

    Rabbi Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam once said:

    “When a Jew recites ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d, the Lord is One’ he should have in mind rejecting all idolatry in the world, including Zionism, which is also idolatry.”

    Rabbi Yissachar Dov of Belz once said:

    ” There could be, before the arrival of Mashiach, that the Satan should succeed, and the evildoers should get a State in the Land of Israel. Their state would be a big danger for every Jew in material and spiritual matters.”

    The Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Israel Meir Hakohen once said:

    “In my opinion it is clear that the Zionists are from the offspring of AMALEK.”

    Rabbi Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (Reb Velvel) once said:

    “How can the little rabbis and heads of yeshivas take upon themselves the determination of things dealing with life and death? It is obvious that the partition will bring with it the anger and hostility of the Arabs and other nations of the world. This whole thing touches on the shedding of blood. HOW DO THEY HAVE THE ARROGANCE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH?

    He also said:

    “The Agudah is nothing, just money.” Rabbi Moshe Leib Diskin once said: “The rabbis of the generation should gather together and issue a writ of excommunication against the Zionists and eject them from the Jewish People, and make decrees against their bread and wine, and to forbid marrying with them, JUST LIKE OUR SAGES DID WITH THE SAMARITANS.”

    Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Eherenreich once said:

    “The Zionists brought us to the Holocaust. It is well known that it was possible to redeem Jews from the Nazis with money, and save many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Hungary from the fire. THE ZIONIST LEADERS WHO NOW SIT IN GOVERNMENT PREVENTED IT!”

    Rabbi Shaul Brach of Kashoa once said:

    “Before thinking up the idea of Zionism, Herzl wanted all Jews to convert to Christianity. When he was laughed at, he developed the second idea which was able to have more effect, since thousands of Jews began to believe they could be Jews without the Torah of Judaism.”

    “I am also surprised at the leaders of the Agudah who want thousands of Jews to move to Eretz Israel. How can they ignore the welfare of their children, since there is no other place on earth where there is so much heresy and sectarianism as in the Holy Land in our day.”

    **********

    Reb Elchonon Wasserman, zt’l:

    **********

    Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zt’l:

    In July 1938 President Roosevelt convened the Evian Conference to consider the problem of Jewish refugees. At that time a German offer was made to release Jews at $250 per person. The Jewish Agency, headed by Golda Meir, decided to ignore the offer.

    At this conference, the delegation from the Jewish Agency made no effort to influence the United States or any of the 32 other participating nations to open their gates to admit German Jews.

    769. It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos. They were the machinery, which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths. No Torah leader ever cooperated with the Nazis in the destruction machinery.

    **********

    Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z”L:

    Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively “rewriting” history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.

    To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolet Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.

    #621433

    Zalman
    Participant

    cantoresq,

    I’m unfamiliar with R. Esriel Hildesheimer or the Sridei Eish. My apologies for my unfamiliarity with every Rabbi of past and present.

    The Satmar Rebbe’s talmidim purchased a train ticket out of Hungary from Kastner ym’s (much like Rebi Yochanan ben Zakki saved the Rabbonim in Yavneh through Vesapian), after Kastner sold the lives of 600,000 Hungarian Jews to Adolf Eichmann in exchange for his train. (Who aside from the tickets he sold for his profit, Kastner mainly filled with his family and Zionist friends.)

    #621435

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    well, I am not sure what I should add to all of the above comments. Matisjohu,who is actually totally ignorant of halacha, and zalman ,who thinks that vajoel moshe is moshe rabbeinu’s torah, are so far off the real yiddishe derech that we should leave them at their folly. I’ll just comment on a couple of stupid comments by them.

    “There were no gedolim in mizrachi”. mmm. you never heard of the netziv, I imagine. or Rav Kook (as mentioned) or Reb Meshulam Rath zz’l -who paskened to say hallel on jom haaztmaut- or Rav zevin zz’l, who called jom haatsmaut a jom tov- or Rav Zvi Hirsch kalisher zz’l. I am not even mentioning Rav goren and many others today. All this talk about gedolim has everything to do with politics anf nothing with gadlus.

    As far as the controversy on Moshiach. All of the postings ignore the simple gemoro, upon which the Rambam is founded: ” ein bein oilam hazeh le’jemos hamoshiach elu shibbut malchios bilvad”. (gemoro sanhedrin and according to shmuel)

    It is crystal clear from the gemoro and the rambam that moshiach is a lving person and nothing- NOTHING- will be different in jemos hamoshiach except the “yoke of the oppressors” -exactly as it is today!

    SO, why can’t moshiach die? if ‘jemos hamoshiach’ continues to be a natural world, why indeed can’t moshaich die, the midrash of dan nothwithstanding.There are other opposing midrashim,including the gemoro itself.

    I am not saying anything about the person of Moshaich or about the rebbe zz’l, but all of you go directly against the gemoro and the rambam. But I imagine you don’t care, because your torah is”vajoel moshe” (which I did learn ,incidentally)

    Let me throw a live grenade in this whole deabte about the “evil zionists’ the neturey karta.etc…WHy did Hashem Ysiborach punish primarily the chareidim? Most of the Polishe yidden were frum ,certainly many of the litvishe ydden were of chareidi persusasion and especially the hungarian jews were extreme chareidim. Hakodesh Buroch huh punished these communities the most. (remember, the hated German “reform’ jews escaped with their lives-as most were expelled, not killed) Why???? Just ask yourself that question and then read Rav Teichtal zz’ l sefer ‘ Eim habonim semeichah”

    Matisjohus words are the worst and the most ignorant. One example- he flatly denies the right to women/girls to learn gemoro. OK, can you give the mekor for this???? We’ll see if you know anything beyind “Vajoel moshe”

    #621436

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    A few additonal comments on earlier postings…To mariner- I admire yo ustadning up for reb joiseh ber but i must tell yo u, you are dead wrong about moshiach and lubavitch. There a slew of maaorei chazal, zoahr, and afterwards who conclusively tell us that there will be a slow awakening of the “jemosa hamoshiach”. You don’t belive me? Go and learn the sefer of Rav Zvi Hirsch Kalisher zz’l (written, by the way, in the 1850’s!) “Derishat Zion’ and you will see how he brings down hundreds of mmamorei chaal who absolutely mirror the derech of the religious zionists (the “failed’ mizrachi”)e wrote this fifty years before zionism even existed,. But for zalman and matisjohu, he is nothing. All that counts is Toras “vajoel Moshe”.

    As far as asking why not the Maggid ,why not other gedolim, “ein hochi nami”. You can ask this time and time again. Maybe it is more current today because, for the first time since bar Kochba (as you know, he was called Moshiach by Rabbi Akiva) we have Eretz Yisroel back in our own hands, Boruch hashem. Hence, more emphasis on Moshiach today. And, please, you are too intelligent to even dare compare for one milli-second Lubavitch with -chas vecholilo- x-anity.

    As far as the rantings of zalman and matisjohu against the zionists, against the medianah,etc…that’s OK, stay here in the US and get consumed with jealousy and envy at the success of the “treifene medianh”. Hakodesh boruch knew what He was doing and ,of course, you have the bechira to be stupid.

    #621437

    Zalman
    Participant

    cantor, it is also a statement of your hypocrisy that on one hand you harshly critique Rav Elchanan Wasserman for NOT saving his life in WWII, and criticize the Satmar Rebbe FOR saving his life. With your ilk the Rabbonim can do no right.

    Without doubt you would’ve been the first to denounce Rebi Yochanon ben Zakki for his dealings with Vesapian vis-a-vis saving the Rabbonim at Yavneh.

    #621439

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    i have carefully re-read Matisjohu’s and zalman’s comments about zionism, alyah, the mizrachi, rav kook, etc.I rarely insult people so i shall only ask one very simple question? DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF FOR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING???

    I CHALLENGE you to bring any REALl sources for your drivel, except, of course, your toras “vajoel moshe”.

    Not only are you showing your ignorance but you are insulting tannaim,ammoroim and rishonim when you write that “alyah’ is a “secular nationalistic idea’ SHAME ON YOU !!!! tannaim, amoiroim ,rishonim ad achronim did all they could to go live in israel and make ‘alyah” !!! What ignoble and excerable comments to cast all these gedolim in this light!

    SHAME ON YOU to call gedolim vechachomim “apikorsim”.And for yo u to call the “medianh’ the great “avoidoh zoroh” is TRULY motzi shem rah on hundreds of thousands of ehrliche yidden who have done more for Klal Yisroel in their little figner than you in your whole miserable life!

    Not only can’t you provide any real sources for the garbage (your words) you spout but then you put words in Rav Hutner’s mouth which have nothing to do with the rebbe zz’l. He NEVER said this about lubavitch in thsat context and I am a talmid of his! Bring your proof before you quote a godol!

    You are both despicable examples of a “zoken amareh”, although you are both too young to know what that means.

    This may be a so-called “chareidi’ website, but REAL SHEKER- REAL LIES should not be allowed to be printed without being challenged !

    #621440

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    It is absolutely amazing how closed minded and ignorant people can be. Now, I actually learned the “vajoel Moshe” and I actually read reb Elchonon’s words in “kobetz Shiurim” and I actually read many of the Agudah Sages.And I also read Rav Kook and Rav zvi Hirch Kalisher and Rav teichtal and the seridei Eish,amongst many others. Zalman and Matisjohu can only spout insults and all they can do is to be “mevazeh” gedolim. They have not read anything besides their Toras’Vajoel Moshe’.Zalman is totally wrong in saying that virtually everyone agreed with the Satmarer Rov. Actually, almost NO ONE agreed with him. Not the Gerrer rebbe, the imrei emess, not the vishnitzer rebbe, the imrei chaim, not the Ponevitzer rov, not Reb Chaim Shmulewitz and virtually al lthe gedolim of the Agudah, NO ONE agreed with him as far as the medinah goes. R”Itshe meir levin ,the Bais Ysorel’s brother-in-law signed the declaration of Independence. It is totally ridiculous to assert the truth of any of his comments. Thye are flatly a lie.AndIi have never seen any so-called religious Zionist Rov vilifying any chareidi Rov. You, of course, feel free to spout rechilus and hotzoas shem rah. How “frum”.Noe of you two know anything about the real issues underlying the debate. You issue declarations that you cannot suport, like saying (Matisjohu) “a woman/girl is not allowed to learn gemoro”. OK= PROVE IT! show me the source for that (false) assumption.

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