Stop the SHLEPPING In Shul! πŸ›‘πŸ’πŸŒπŸ•

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  • #1388199

    EinOdMilvado
    Participant

    I am very big fan of the “Stop the talking in shul” movement going on nowadays. However, there’s a couple of things that I’ve noticed that have made come to a slightly different conclusion.
    Firstly, the talking in Shul problem is more prevalent on Shabbos than during the week.
    Secondly, the minyan I daven in on Shabbos goes quite fast – takes us usually between an hour and a quarter to an hour and a half and theres hardly any problems of talking.
    Thirdly, I’ve been to many shuls on shabbos where the davening and leining are shlepped bec of the many songs, the leining is very slow, the long mi sheberachs, the long speeches etc… and there they have lots of problems of people talking.
    Bekitzur, I think you know where I’m heading with this. In my humble opinion, the first step to take to help the issue of people talking in Shul, is to stop the shlepping in shul. If people know that they are coming to shul and are going to be there for at least two and a half hours, of course they are going to talk!! What can you expect?? Not only that, but theyre not going to wait till they are bored to talk, theyll start talking right away! Not only that, but theyre also going to come late to shul as well because who wants to be there for so long so might as well come late.
    On the other hand, if somebody knows that they are coming to shul for an hour and a half, and the whole time they will be only davening/ leining etc… then not only will they make sure to come on time, but they will also just daven and not talk.
    Its all common sense and based on chazal. The possuk says Χ•Χ”Χ‘Χ•Χ¨ Χ¨Χ§ ΧΧ™ΧŸ Χ‘Χ• ΧžΧ™Χ. I would like to humbly submit that that doesnt only refer to physical space but also time. If you fill the time in shul with davening etc, then thats what will happen. However, if theres alot of time wasting in shul, then the emptyness will become filled with talking – spiritual snakes and scorpions.
    I’m not claiming that thats the only issue, but I believe that its a big issue.
    Behatzlacha to all and may we be zoche to see this big problem solved speedily in our days – Amen!!

    #1388221

    Joseph
    Participant

    Are you in a rush to get back to work after shul on Shabbos?

    #1388228

    Meno
    Participant

    Joseph,

    He explained quite clearly the problems with a dragged out davening. It has nothing to do with being in a rush.

    #1388304

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    The real problem is that many people are not familiar with the pirush hamilos of davening and brochos. If you actually understood what you are saying when u daven then it would a whole different davening. This problem can be blamed on schools for concentrating mostly on Gemara. Zero nach little or no mussar and little else. What do u expect ?

    #1388303

    adocs
    Participant

    Perhaps he’s in a rush so he can…

    Spend more time learning with his children
    Spend more time learning himself
    Get home to help his wife with kids

    There we go. Glass half full.

    #1388313

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Shabbos davening in my shul averages 2 hours including the 10 – 15 minutes for the Rov’s drasha. We only recite a Mi Shehbeyrach for the “oleh aliya”.

    One thing that can’t totally be controlled is “the leining is very slow”. A baal koreh can try to speed but if he is swallowing words or reading words baal peh to increase his speed nobody is yotzeh. I agree that some baalei kriah are “agonizingly slow”. However, I would like to give an analogy. You are driving and someone in the car is being a backseat driver: “slow down, speed up”. Do you listen or ignore it? As a bal koreh, I ignore such messages. I am in the driver’s seat and I can go as fast or as slow as I please, as long as the Rav and the gaboim are satisfied with my speed. One cannot lein the parsha like he his reading the names of the 10 sons of Haman.

    #1388340

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    EinOdMilvado,

    On Shabbos I daven at a hashkoma minyan that lasts about an hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes with a kiddush afterwards, and there is still a problem with talking. And it’s the same people every week. As much as we want to be nice and blame circumstances for the talking, I feel that, unfortunately, the problem is due to a lack of respect on the part of the talkers. Lack of respect for the minyan, for the other mispallelim, and for Hashem. Yom Kippur davening lasts all day, and there is no talking problem. I think that’s because on Yom Kippur, everyone is aware that we are going to shul to daven.

    #1388349

    DaasYochid β˜•
    Participant

    On Shabbos I daven at a hashkoma minyan that lasts about an hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes with a kiddush afterwards, and there is still a problem with talking.

    Just imagine how bad the talking problem would be if they shlepped!

    #1388366

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    Just imagine how bad the talking problem would be if they shlepped!

    Maybe they’d form a kiddush club and leave.

    #1388351

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Joe asks….”Are you in a rush to get back to work after shul on Shabbos?”

    No…actually its the problem of getting a tee time if the early minyan drags on much past 9:30 Am since after 10, the course is opened to the public.
    Seriously though, its quite possible to do a respectable davening on an ordinary Shabbos AM (not Shabbos rosh chodesh, parshas Nasso or the rebbe’s son’s aufruf) with kavanah in 90 minutes or 2 hours max…most yidden are fortunate enough to have several minyanim to choose from so they can find one that davens with a rhythm that matches their needs….as to the challenges posed by a “slow” baal koreh, its usually resolved by getting other daveners to volunteer to do the kariah (aka tell the gabbi its your bar mitzvah parasha etc.).

    #1388370

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Moving the Kiddush back to after musaf (rather than the “club”during the kiriah or the rav’s dvar where it belongs poses a separate risk because the drinkers also happen to be the more prolific and loudest talkers…the only “good” thing about a “vasikim Kiddush club” is that it draws these loudmouths out of the shul earlier in the deveningso the rest of us can hear the baal koreh and rav w/o the gabbai having to clop on the bimah every 2-3 minutes..

    #1388451

    groissechuchum
    Participant

    agree with Avram in MD, the schlepping is annoying for me but that’s not what MAKES people talk/not talk. People are lax in this inyan and some other guys made it they’re raison d’etre to wage jihad against it. In my opinion these shushers need a good frosk in punim and the talkers need to be educated and inspired…in my experience its not the talkers that are “shterring” its your lack of kavana…for some of these shushers its a power trip a to z, for others its easy way to frum on yenim’s cheshbon, for the yechidim it actually bothers – the erinsta aidele ones double their kavana – my guess is R’ Elyashiv a”h would have been oblivious to it

    #1388470

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “If people know that they are coming to shul and are going to be there for at least two and a half hours, of course they are going to talk!! ”

    Of course? If one had to sit through a dinner at the white house and 2 hours of boring speeches, would he talk to the guy sitting next to him? Why should hashems house be any different. Perhaps this person should move to a minyan that davens faster, so that he wont be bored in shul. Perhaps the person is bored because they have zero appreciation of what it means to be in shul in the presence of hashem. Perhaps this person sees tefilla as nothing short of a chore, chalila, and thats why he is bored. There are many, many people who attend such shuls and are not bored, and in fact enthusiatically sing along with the chazzan, or listen attentively to every word of chazaras hashatz and krias hatora because they appreciate what it means to be in shul.

    #1388561

    BoysWork
    Participant

    I have davened in many shuls in my life, and I can tell you in all honesty, that its not always the length of the davening. In some of the more modern shuls that I davened in, the mispalelim are much more respectful during davening and laining. For the past couple of years, I have been davening in a small minyan in someone’s home (out of convenience). This minyan has attracted many chasidish young married men, who seem to think that the minyan is a social club. There are quite a few who come only for the free food and booze.; I can tell you that these guys do not daven a single word. They don’t even fake it. The talking is so out of hand that anyone sitting right near the baal kora, can barely hear. And its not the length, the davening takes no more than 1.5 hours.

    #1388601

    Shtika
    Participant

    INCREASE THE SHLEPPING IN THE SHUL!
    I can’t believe it.. Instead of blaming everyone else, why don’t we try to really understand the basics. I’m not talking about chasidim harishonim that took 1 hour to prepare for davening, and 1 hour after, nobody is on that madrega obviously. But we do have to strive to improve our davening just like we need to improve our learning and middos. But even without that, what about basic mentshlechkeit. I daven in a minyan that goes for at least 3 hours on shabbos and nobody out of 200+people complain that it’s too slow and almost nobody talks during davening.
    For all you out there who feel davening is what you must do, so then a shul is just a place to be yotzi Zain, where you come and check off that you davened, well guess what, you didn’t. You just came and speed-red the words and left. No wonder you try to shave off time from davening. Instead of complaining like, get a sefer that explains davening and learn it when you’re waiting for everyone else to finish.

    #1388608

    EinOdMilvado
    Participant

    Just to clarify (i though this was quite clear in my original post) I’m not claiming that shlepping is the ONLY reason. Just that from my experience its ONE of the reasons and should be taken into account when trying to find a solution to this epidemic. I think its overlooked and I posted my original post just to put it on the map and see whether the olam agrees or disagrees.

    #1388602

    Meno
    Participant

    The way I see it, there are two types of people who talk in shul:

    1) There are the people who will talk in shul no matter what. They don’t take davening seriously, they aren’t really interested in davening, they come to shul because of social pressure or some other reason. The issues brought up by the OP have nothing to do with this type of person – they will keep talking no matter what.

    2) There are people who generally don’t talk in shul, and take davening seriously, and come to shul in order to daven. However, when certain parts of the “davening” (e.g. mi shebeirachs) are dragged out, these people feel that they are basically expected to sit there and do nothing, and therefore they turn to talking during those times (Of course they can do other productive things like learn during those times, but I think most people prefer to daven during davening and learn during their learning seder). For this type of person, cutting down on the “shlepping” very well may reduce the talking.

    #1388625

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Meno: We found that cutting out the “family mi shehbeyrach’s” curtailed the talking “bein gavra l’gavra”and led to better decorum, overall.

    #1388636

    apushatayid
    Participant

    They are all excuses. a grown person should be able to keep his mouth shut for the three minutes it takes to make a mi-shebeirach in between aliyos.

    #1388640

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Usually people who think a davening is too long will vote with their feet and go elsewhere

    #1388642

    DovidBT
    Participant

    If someone is not giving his full attention to the davening, doesn’t that mean that he doesn’t really believe that Hashem is watching and listening? Maybe that’s the key to solving this problem.

    #1388658

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Personally, I think ADHD medication is vastly UNDER-PRESCRIBED amongst Frum adults.

    Because getting these folk to a psychiatrist is nigh near impossible, it falls to the PCP’s and pediatricians to rectify the problem.

    Corrected prescriptions would likely solve both (talking and perceived schlepping) problems.

    #1388682

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    I used to talk during davvening, but stopped.

    I now come late and davveing is 2 hours for me, with some of it catching up. I have no time to talk.

    In shamayim, if they ask why I came late to davvening, I will answer them that I followed Halacha where it says it is better to stay home than talk in shul. Shulchan Aruch Siman 124:7

    #1388683

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most people do not speak hebrew that well and even if they speak some, the words really are hard to understand. Even if someone really wants to daven hard ot hashem, praying in a foreign language can lose meaning to even the best of people and they get bored when the davening lasts several hours

    #1388698

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Davening is not in Hebrew, it is ΧœΧ©Χ•ΧŸ Χ§Χ•Χ“Χ©. Most people who learned a Yeshiva or Beis Yaakov know more than enough to understand the words. In addition many also teach peirush of davening. I know that mine and my children’s did.

    There are many readily available siddurim with translations in manor languages for those who do not understand ΧœΧ©Χ•ΧŸ Χ”Χ§Χ•Χ“Χ© well enough.

    More important than just understanding the words is meaning what one davens.

    Not understanding the words is often not the real reason why those who talk by davening do so. Most often it is Attitude. The same attitude which may be the reason why they do not know what they are saying. Even when they should know what the word mean.

    #1388729

    DaasYochid β˜•
    Participant

    In shamayim, if they ask why I came late to davvening, I will answer them that I followed Halacha where it says it is better to stay home than talk in shul. Shulchan Aruch Siman 124:7

    What if they ask you why you didn’t just come on time and not talk?

    #1388762

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Nisht, believe what you want and use any euphemism that makes you happy but it’s Hebrew.

    #1388763

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most people talk in shul because they are bored. For whatever they are bored in shul. Have you ever seen someone stop to talk when they are doing something they find exciting

    #1388871

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    DAAS: I couldn’t find a halacha on coming on-time to shul so I doubt they would ask that.
    Even if they do, my ahavas yisroel of not wanting to disturb other Jews from davvening will trump my selfishness of coming on-time and talking.

    I’m not worried πŸ™‚

    #1388883

    awarenessvaad
    Participant

    Most people talk in shul because they are forced to say words that they are not holding by. Its above their level. This applies to the majority of davening.
    Ex: In Shema; and you will see them, the tzitzis and remember all the mitzvohs and do them OR in Ashrai; Bechol yoim avorececho …
    Why is no one mentioning this blatant issue?

    #1388885

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    lesschumras,

    Nisht, believe what you want and use any euphemism that makes you happy but it’s Hebrew.

    By kaddish, berich shmei demarei alema, and yekum purkan on Shabbos I disagree. But for most everything else, yes, Hebrew πŸ™‚

    #1388886

    Joseph
    Participant

    Certain parts of davening, i.e. Shma, Baruch Sheamar and on, etc., there are greater restrictions against speaking that almost everyone honors.

    #1388891

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    awarenessvaad,

    Um…. what?

    #1389029

    awarenessvaad
    Participant

    Most people are not “with it” because they are saying words that Dovid Hamelech was on that level but not us in today’s generation. Therefore they are bored , come late, leave early and talk whenever it gets too much for them.

    #1388999

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Without debating the merits of going into a church, it is my experience that goyim generally tend to be considerably more respectful (in terms of not engaging in any chatter) during their services….there have even been postings here about conservative/reform not speaking so much but again, that will drag us into a debate if that’s the same (or worse) than going into a church.

    #1388902

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    BoysWork,

    In some of the more modern shuls that I davened in, the mispalelim are much more respectful during davening and laining. For the past couple of years, I have been davening in a small minyan in someone’s home (out of convenience). This minyan has attracted many chasidish young married men, who seem to think that the minyan is a social club.

    That was a totally unnecessary juxtaposition. You could have contrasted long shul davening with no talking vs. quick davening in someone’s home with talking and made your point just fine, without disparaging other Jews.

    #1388890

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    Most people talk in shul because they are bored. For whatever they are bored in shul. Have you ever seen someone stop to talk when they are doing something they find exciting

    You may be partly right about this; however, is the problem with the davening itself, or with the bored people? Your initial post seemed to point a finger at the davening due to a language barrier, but, as nishtdayngesheft pointed out, one can use a translation, or work to improve their skills. One can also add his own thoughts and personal tefillos to the davening to make it more personal and less rote. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

    But all of that is really beside the point. One can be bored and yet still realize that davening is important and that it is assur to talk and disturb others. So really, talking in shul goes beyond boredom and reflects a lack of respect.

    #1389044

    Joseph
    Participant

    Christians and Conservative/Reform go to their Church or Temple once a week, if even that. Jews go three times a day. So to compare, is to miss the mark.

    #1389064

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Language is part of the boredom and the translation is really useless (Try reading it and see if it makes sense)

    Of course where there is a will, there is a way, but mussor really wont solve the problem here (I have no solutions..Only pointing out where the problem is) For whatever reason it tends to fall on deaf ears

    I have heard from Rabbanim that speeding up the davening does cut down on the talking so OP has backing when he posts that.

    #1389066

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Christians and Conservative/Reform go to their Church or Temple once a week, if even that. Jews go three times a day. So to compare, is to miss the mark.

    Things that are more of an event tend to get people more excited than things done at least once a day.

    Which excites you more a regular weekday at home meal (Not at a restaurant) or a Friday Night Shabbos meal which is more of an event

    There are plenty of Rabbanim who have discussed the Rote issue

    #1389072

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Christians and Conservative/Reform go to their Church or Temple once a week, if even that. Jews go three times a day. So to compare, is to miss the mark.

    That may be, but I think it has more to do with the structure and purpose of the respective services. Christian and Reform services are akin to performances – there is instrumental music, theatrical sermons, etc. and the congregants are largely a passive audience. The central aspect of Orthodox Jewish services, on the other hand, is tefilla, which is personal, and congregants must be active to fulfill their obligations.

    #1389075

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    The Language is part of the boredom and the translation is really useless (Try reading it and see if it makes sense)

    I actually perceive much of the Artscroll English translations to be very well done and powerful, and there are commentaries on the bottom of the pages of the English/Hebrew siddur that provide further explanations.

    Of course where there is a will, there is a way, but mussor really wont solve the problem here (I have no solutions..Only pointing out where the problem is) For whatever reason it tends to fall on deaf ears

    So if you could magically fix the problem, which route would you choose? Would you replace the Hebrew/Aramaic tefillos with some good, entertaining English stuff, or would you open people’s hearts to the traditional tefillos?

    I have heard from Rabbanim that speeding up the davening does cut down on the talking so OP has backing when he posts that.

    Sure, less talking can be accomplished in 2 hours than 3, and faster davening yields fewer talking opportunities for those who are actually trying to say all of the tefillos.

    #1389082

    DaasYochid β˜•
    Participant

    Sure, less talking can be accomplished in 2 hours than 3

    There you go, a simple mathematical explanation.

    #1389122

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Not every problem has a solution

    #1389170

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    Not every problem has a solution

    Cluck cluck cluck cluck bwaaaaaaaak! I’m referring to a hypothetical where there is a solution. Which would you choose?

    #1389184

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This is not going to Fly and may even be against Halacha, I dont know

    but if it were possible to do so within halacha I would propose the following

    But for the 15% or so people who are bored during daving, I would propose some sort of more exciting service. More Davening in native language , Shorter service and maybe with some sort of entertaining Choir .

    And even if it were legal according to Halacha, there would still be opposition to it

    #1389194

    Joseph
    Participant

    Reform/Conservative did exactly as you suggested, ZD.

    #1389201

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am well aware that was done by other denominations which is why even if it would be permitted by Halacha it would be frowned upon.

    I think I heard that Stoliner or Kaliner Chassidim yell during davening, but I’ve never seen it

    #1389212

    JJ2020
    Participant

    I think aish and ncsy do some kind education alternatives Some times. There are shuls who do more singing too. As far as out education goes there is not much time spent on tiffilah, connecting to Hashem.

    #1389215

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    ZD: See the Mishna Berurah 62:2 SK 3. Min hadin one can daven in any language but the mitzvah min hamuvchar is to daven in Loshon Hakodesh. However, in our times even mitzad hadin one should be mindful should not daven in any language but loshon hakodesh as many words cannot be translated well….

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49623&st=&pgnum=188

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