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With all the talk of shidduch crisis and boys getting married younger I think yhe first step is to stop the trend of going for a year plus to E”y after 4 years in local Bais Medrash.
It used to be the place where American boys from unyeshivishe families got their Tirah hashkofo. But B”H achshir dori.
The reason it still exists is because you are considered odd if you didn”t…..
But all Roshei Yeshiva get together to stop it than that would become the norm. In Israeli Yeshivos the bacharim get married straight from their original Yeshivas.
Then BMG would be Kollel only. No freezer problem.
That is your opinion.
Rather than look to do away with Torah learning, which is completely the wrong hashkafa, perhaps we should look at our forefathers during this crisis for a solution (as Klal Yisroel has always done). If you do I think you’ll find polygamy to be the answer.
I agree that if someone is matzliach in an American yeshiva, there’s no need to go to eretz yisroel. I know many bochurim who did just that – they had a bit of a hard time in shidduchim, but only minor hiccups, because in my yeshiva it was more accepted than elsewhere.
Many boys from yeshivish backgrounds still need the extra shot of intensity that brisket yeshivos offer, especially rav tzvi kaplan, for instance. Many others need a Torah Ohr type of atmosphere. There definitely are yeshivos in EY that cater to bochurim who haven’t found their place in American yeshivos.
My rosh yeshiva told me it was a good idea to go to EY after a long conversation. It wasn’t automatic. I had a strong tzad not to go.
> we should look at our forefathers during this crisis for a solution (as Klal Yisroel has always done)
a good approach! Do we have examples of Klal Isroel using polygamy as an emergency solution? Or at least, at the times before R Gershom increasing polygamy from a rare occurrence to a frequent practice?
Note that we had this problem at least once: when Jewish numbers were increasing dramatically during Yetziyas Mitzraim! Maybe it was mitigated by men being killed off directly or in labor camps.
Maybe that is why Amram marries his aunt? (presumably older than, say, a niece)Here are several possible solutions for parity under rapid growth, what do you think?
1) re-institute a 2-stage marriage with 1-2 years in between. I don’t think R Gershom forbade that!
This still means that the shidduch is done for immature people, but at least they are matched up and mature at the time of the chuppah. This is very similar to what was done in Eastern Europe in troubled times when children were matched up way early.2) nudge men to marry earlier. This goes against the trend of delaying maturity (of which extra yeshiva time is just one manifestation). Solution would be to teach in the yeshiva how to be a good husband and support the family. Sign up prenups that the boy can continue learning.
3) nudge women to marry later. This would lead to more mature marriages, but goes both against girls’ instincts and social pressure and also boys preferring “younger”. Maybe Roshei yeshiva can order their students not just to stay in the “freezer” but also no brides under 22 or pay back previously subsidized tuition (say, $1K multiplied by months before kallah’s 22).
4) focus kiruv on college women more than men. Pay shadchanus fee to college Hillel and Chabad Rabbis.
AAQ: Do we have examples of Klal Isroel using polygamy as an emergency solution? Or at least, at the times before R Gershom increasing polygamy from a rare occurrence to a frequent practice?
No one suggested making polygamy a “frequent practice”. Even permitting it on an infrequent basis, as needed only with rabbinical approval, can alleviate the disparity in numbers. If even a small percentage of husbands took a second wife, that should correct the current imbalance to a great degree.
AAQ: The idea of asking women to marry later is way off base. With the current issue of a solid percentage of women not being able to get married altogether due to a shortage of men to marry, any woman asked to wait to get married will recoil in horror and panicked fear that a delay may be an indefinite one. From her perspective, the best shot at avoiding being left at the altar with no one, is to get married as early as possible (much like Chazal say and is the Torah way.) She will not accept any suggestions from anyone to delay marriage for an alleged societal benefit, but to her great indefinite detriment.
“If all Roshei Yeshiva would get together and….” would solve like 99% of all internal problems in Klal Yisroel today. However, not only do too many people (including many Roshei Yeshivos) have too much riding on our current system, it’s also really really difficult to turn the ship that is our community in a different direction, no matter how many people are pulling at the rudder.
American, bochurim go to rav tzvi after 3 or 4 years in BM – Torah Ohr is after high school or one year of BM.
> intensity that brisket yeshivos offer,
I think file mignon yeshivas are more intense, at least from the point of view of required shechita.
> From her perspective, the best shot at avoiding being left at the altar with no one, is to get married as early as possible
exactly, that is why this is not going to work out on it’s own, but requires leadership. I think I read Telshe yeshiva in the 70s saying that early marriages are the main causes of family problems in the frum community of that time…
YS > If all Roshei Yeshiva would get together and….”
Rav Steinsaltz wondered aloud why we simply not follow the Gemora that says when all Talmidei Chachamaim would daven together on the same street of Yerushalaim, Moschiach will come.
He also answered – we misunderstand it, It is only when Moschiach will come, such event will happen …
What?!? Because of the 0.06% of learning boys are who wait two years to get into Brisk? Get a life. Or a calculator.
You mean your math fails because you lack the other option?
Dear American,
Sorry for going so tough on you. You deserve a better welcome.
The topic you started here, is not coherent. If you have an issue with the Brisk factor, than discuss that. If you want to insinuate that learning boys are destroying their lives because their are not groveling to marry at 17, than join the choir. If you hate that so many active minds are in service of their Roshei Yeshiva, then meet with YAFFED. Or go real extreme and meet with LIBBY.
I’m responding to your theory that boys are delaying moving on with their life just to get into Brisk. While some may wait an extra zman, most won’t pause endlessly just to get into Brisk. Your whole theory is shaky to begin with. But at least start of with a true reckoning of the facts. The amount of bachurim that spend two years just waiting to get into Brisk, is miniscule.
Guys guys guys
let’s set a few thing straight
1) there is undoubtedly a point that boys are delaying marriage to learn in e”y
2) There is undoubtedly a tremendous amount to gain by learning in e”y, both in terms of intensity, in terms of hashkapha, and in terms of kodshim
Both points are true.
Does anyone have a solution to these two points to try and fix things?
Don’t get this
If I’m the last poster why is my name not on the list.
Dear Zushy,
Both points are doubtful.
What is the authoritative Brisk hierarchy?
Reb Avrohom Yehoshua is at the top.
Where do Reb Yechiels, Yagdil, Reb Tzvi’s, reb Shalom Shechter, praeger’s fit in?PS It is bizarre how values changed over time.
This is discussed in the end of Nedarim: a guy makes a neder not to get benefit from anyone in the world if he were to marry until he finishes learning the whole mishna. Apparently, marriage in those times required people to work, so he wanted to learn first full time and used neder to strengthen himself. Apparently, he needed chizuk as it was not “a thing”…
Then, turns out, he is not that capable, so he was not able to finish Mishna so far. Apparently, there was no social promotion at the time.
So, now he is sitting and “learning” and not able to get married. Apparently, learning to avoid social obligations was frown upon at the time, so all amoraim rush to trick the guy into marrying and then throw dirt on him, so he now needs a cleaner (apparently, he did not learn cleaning skills also), so he goes to do hatarat nedarim.
I know in the past Reb Meshulam Dovid was viewed as #2 behind RAY. I heard that Reb Shalom Shechter was a tier behind that. But if you had to make a list in order of preference, what would it be? EG your typical “not aleph aleph” bachur with no pull to get into RAY.
The exception to that is rav tzvi kaplan; no one goes there by default after not getting into rav avrohom yehoshua. You’re there because you want to be in a pressure cooker with hardcore mussar that will break every American notion in your head
Being that people are so concerned…
Why not give the girls something to do instead of pressuring boys and telling them when to get married when there is already a big enough yetzer without the extra pressure.Concerned man.
Being that people are so concerned…
Why not give the girls something to do for an extra year or two and make a rule that boys and girls should only marry with in their age instead of pressuring boys and telling them when to get married when there is already a big enough yetzer without the extra pressure.Secondly there are psychological reasons why older boys and younger girls are better matches
Concerned man.
Why is there a ranking of different yeshivos? It should be about which one is the best fit for each person. They’re not one size fits all.
I had heard also that RAY was considered “better” than R’ Dovid. A friend told me he was going to R’ Dovid’s yeshiva, and I jokingly said, “You couldn’t get into RAY?” He replied, “Why should I learn by a grandson of the Brisker Rav when I can learn by his son?”
One of my Rabbeim from Darchei had an extremely low opinion of RAY. He used to refer to him as AJ. Someone once asked him what the issue was, and he replied, “My mother taught me, if you have nothing nice to say, don’t say anything at all.” The boy asked, “Rebbe, there’s nothing good to say?” The Rebbe replied, “His father was a big talmud chacham.”There was a story told when I was in yeshiva about RAY. Supposedly he strongly disagreed with a psak that R’ Moshe Feinstein had given, and wasn’t shy about saying so. Once, in shiur, he was talking about it, and he yelled out, “ah Feinstein hut gemacht a churban in America!”
R’ Elya Svei’s son (I believe that’s who it was) was in the shiur. He stood up and yelled back, “I heard it was a Soloveitchik!” Then he walked out of the room.DaMoshe: Did you hear any other bubbe maisas that you want to share?
Ujm, happens to be I’ve heard the story about rav avrohom yehoshua criticizing, or in the brisker lingo, levying “bikores” on rav Moshe. He had no problem doing so publicly in his 30s when ue came out shtark against rav shach, the gadol hador. It’s not that he didn’t hold of them, it’s a brisker mahalach which is commonly misunderstood. And I’ve heard the part about a bochur saying “in America we say that a soloveitchik made a churban”
But…it also got brisker talmidim blacklisted in the rest of the israeli yeshiva world. Not so in America; quite the opposite, actually.
As for a rebbe publicly calling rav avrohom yehoshua by his English initials…does he call rabbi yoshe ber JB? Probably not. It’s an insult to kovod Hatorah. Whatever you think of rav avrohom yehoshua, he was respected by the brisker inner circles, despite there being plenty of politics. Darchei is a great Yeshiva, but that’s not something a talmid chacham would do – if for nothing else than for the position rav avrohom yehoshua occupies. It’s a bizayon Hatorah.
Aveirah, I don’t think I ever heard that Rebbe talk about R’ Yoshe Ber, so I can’t really answer your question. I definitely remember him saying some very negative things about RAY.
I also remember hearing that RAY used to daven Mincha b’yichidus somewhat often, instead of davening with the yeshiva. Someone told me he heard another Rav say “If RAY would daven b’rabim and say lashon hara b’yichidus, instead of the other way around, he’d be much better off!”Da, there are conditions upon which brisker roshei yeshiva were historically very maikil with tefilah betzibur; rav avrohom yehoshua doing so under those circumstances is not a surprise to me at all.
One of the rabbonim from the Brog family, i forget which one, gave a drasha about the importance of having a rebbe to us bochurim in camp about 8 years ago. He mentioned his literal adventures with rav dovid soloveitchik, who he developed a close relationship with. He offered to take rav dovid on a bein hazmanim trip, which rav dovid surprisingly agreed to! When it became time to daven mincha, he chose to daven alone, because he was makpid to wear talis and tefilin by mincha, and he didn’t want people around him to think he was a member of a certain chasidus that I’d rather not mention.
Rav chaim brisker held that minyan is not a chiyuv, which is part of why brisker roshei yeshiva aren’t as makpid on it as other segments of the Torah world.
Respecting the position of rosh yeshiva when talking to impressionable bochurim is extremely important. It’s like how parents must respect their children’s rebbeim even if they think that they’re mistaken, because of the position they occupy. Now you can switch your kid’s rebbe, but as long as he’s in the class, he needs to have a high impression of the rebbe, as representative of Torah. For a rebbe in darchei to publicly disparage noy just a rosh Yeshiva, but someone many of his talmidim will go to to learn from, is against his duties as a rebbe. To me, it’s enough to make him upgefreight; disqualifying.
Moshe was even told to show kovod malchus to paroh….is rav avrohom yehoshua worse??
Again, brisker “bikores” is misunderstood, the same way your rebbe misunderstood davening beyechidus. Maybe he should learn the brisker toros before talking about things he clearly has no idea about.
Avira, please explain what “Brisker Bikores” is, and why it differs from any other big gadol publicly bashing other gedolim. Some chassidishe rebbes go out of their way to publicly bash other gedolim. Is this also bikores or is it different? As well, where is this heter arupp gebracht in halacha ?
Thank you very much.
How’s it any different than other Gedolim having very strong words against the actions of other Gedolim? i.e. In Ponovezh, Chaim Berlin, Rav Yaakov Emden and Rav Yonosan Eybeschutz, Rambam, etc.
Without getting into any specific situations, one thing that is always true is that just because someone yarshens a shtelle doesn’t mean they are on their father’s or father-in-law’s madreiga.
American, that was a well put explanation of bikores – thank you.
I also find it ironic that damoshe is fine with his rebbe, who is not from the gedolei hador, criticizing rav avrohom yeshoshua, but is not ok with rav avrohom yehoshua criticizing other rabbonim…
i suppose it’s ok because it’s your own rebbe, and maybe it gives damoshe a little more comfort in rejecting the frummest elements of klal yisroe, in favor of the fabric-wearing crowd.
American Yeshivish, the Mirrer rosh yeshiva was likely Rav Chaim Shmulevitz zt”l who told people to hug a soldier after the 6 Day War.
Most of those who attend RAY from America are just there for a year or 2 for “shidduchim”. As such:
1. They don’t absorb the derech of bikores except to quote it on occasion
2. they eat hand matza
3. They fast on taaneisim.So most of this is not nogeiah .
Lernt, brisk is a torah community. Rav avrohom yehoshua wouldn’t have been accepted if he weren’t reoi lekach.
Lernt, there are a lot of brisker hangahos which have become popular among Yeshivaleit, mostly because so many go to brisker affiliated yeshivos. This includes the brisker rov’s chumros on daled minim, particularly the “chut” for hadasim and a very strict standard for yavesh on Lulavim, as well as taking multiple types of Esrogim. Also included are chumros in tekias shofar, and having thick payos. There are a lot of other examples, but i can’t think of them off the top of my head.
Thanks all for explaining how to understand gedolim talking about each other. I don’t think this is anything new, we have strong machlokets all over Gemora and history.
a couple of side comments:
Chumros are nedorim, stay away. Note that none of the chumros mentioned are bein adam l’havero or personal middos. If there are any at any part of your head, pls quote them, I am interested.> Now you can switch your kid’s rebbe, but as long as he’s in the class, he needs to have a high impression of the rebbe, as representative of Torah.
This may be true in a free market environment, when you freely choose a yeshiva. But when there is a limited choice of schools and school chooses teachers, I am not sure it is correct. I tried to follow that to the “T”, and it may lead to bad results. In some cases (and ages), it may become healthier to set boundaries. for example, if Avira were a teacher, I would tell kids – listen to your teacher about Rashi and brisker, and bring everything related to Zionism and college back to me so that we could discuss.
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