Stop the trend of post going to Brisk and its proxies

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  • #2156247
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    With all the talk of shidduch crisis and boys getting married younger I think yhe first step is to stop the trend of going for a year plus to E”y after 4 years in local Bais Medrash.

    It used to be the place where American boys from unyeshivishe families got their Tirah hashkofo. But B”H achshir dori.

    The reason it still exists is because you are considered odd if you didn”t…..

    But all Roshei Yeshiva get together to stop it than that would become the norm. In Israeli Yeshivos the bacharim get married straight from their original Yeshivas.

    Then BMG would be Kollel only. No freezer problem.

    #2156361
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    I left a detailed plea in the comments to mailbag writer. I would like to reiterate what I wrote there.

    The whole going to E”Y after 3 to 4 years in Bais Medrash is in my opinion the main cause of the shidduch crisis.

    There is no reason for this trend to still exist.

    It is a chokehold that the Yeshivos of Brisk have on our American bachurim and on the American Roshei Yeshiva.

    No Rosh Yeshiva in America can get “top” boys unless he can promise that he has a working “reshima” for Brisk.

    This is totally absurd and crazy that one man in E”Y can manipulate our whole yeshiva system.

    Today all the young R”Y have already the “brisker mehalach” in learning and there is absolutely no reason for this trend to still be.

    If all the American R”Y would put up one stand together we could brake this chokehold and have our bachurim stay here and go straight to BMG or get engaged right out of their respective American yeshivos.

    LET THEM STAND TOGETHER AND PUT A STOP TO THIS CRAZINESS NOW!!!

    #2156489
    Quayboardwarrior
    Participant

    That is your opinion.

    Rather than look to do away with Torah learning, which is completely the wrong hashkafa, perhaps we should look at our forefathers during this crisis for a solution (as Klal Yisroel has always done). If you do I think you’ll find polygamy to be the answer.

    #2156519
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I agree that if someone is matzliach in an American yeshiva, there’s no need to go to eretz yisroel. I know many bochurim who did just that – they had a bit of a hard time in shidduchim, but only minor hiccups, because in my yeshiva it was more accepted than elsewhere.

    Many boys from yeshivish backgrounds still need the extra shot of intensity that brisket yeshivos offer, especially rav tzvi kaplan, for instance. Many others need a Torah Ohr type of atmosphere. There definitely are yeshivos in EY that cater to bochurim who haven’t found their place in American yeshivos.

    My rosh yeshiva told me it was a good idea to go to EY after a long conversation. It wasn’t automatic. I had a strong tzad not to go.

    #2156552

    > we should look at our forefathers during this crisis for a solution (as Klal Yisroel has always done)

    a good approach! Do we have examples of Klal Isroel using polygamy as an emergency solution? Or at least, at the times before R Gershom increasing polygamy from a rare occurrence to a frequent practice?

    Note that we had this problem at least once: when Jewish numbers were increasing dramatically during Yetziyas Mitzraim! Maybe it was mitigated by men being killed off directly or in labor camps.
    Maybe that is why Amram marries his aunt? (presumably older than, say, a niece)

    Here are several possible solutions for parity under rapid growth, what do you think?

    1) re-institute a 2-stage marriage with 1-2 years in between. I don’t think R Gershom forbade that!
    This still means that the shidduch is done for immature people, but at least they are matched up and mature at the time of the chuppah. This is very similar to what was done in Eastern Europe in troubled times when children were matched up way early.

    2) nudge men to marry earlier. This goes against the trend of delaying maturity (of which extra yeshiva time is just one manifestation). Solution would be to teach in the yeshiva how to be a good husband and support the family. Sign up prenups that the boy can continue learning.

    3) nudge women to marry later. This would lead to more mature marriages, but goes both against girls’ instincts and social pressure and also boys preferring “younger”. Maybe Roshei yeshiva can order their students not just to stay in the “freezer” but also no brides under 22 or pay back previously subsidized tuition (say, $1K multiplied by months before kallah’s 22).

    4) focus kiruv on college women more than men. Pay shadchanus fee to college Hillel and Chabad Rabbis.

    #2156565
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    @ Avira

    Those yeshivos you mentioned are usually after 1 to 2 years in American B”M. I am refering to the boys who stay 3 to 4 years just to get on the reshima to get in to Brisk. They are usually the muztlach bachurim who just feel the need to have Brisk on their shidduch resume.

    #2156568
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    And please all the trolls who keep on bringing up their polygamy nonsense. You know and everyone knows it will never happen. So it is just a not so cute distraction from any real conversation.

    #2156587
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ: Do we have examples of Klal Isroel using polygamy as an emergency solution? Or at least, at the times before R Gershom increasing polygamy from a rare occurrence to a frequent practice?

    No one suggested making polygamy a “frequent practice”. Even permitting it on an infrequent basis, as needed only with rabbinical approval, can alleviate the disparity in numbers. If even a small percentage of husbands took a second wife, that should correct the current imbalance to a great degree.

    #2156588
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ: The idea of asking women to marry later is way off base. With the current issue of a solid percentage of women not being able to get married altogether due to a shortage of men to marry, any woman asked to wait to get married will recoil in horror and panicked fear that a delay may be an indefinite one. From her perspective, the best shot at avoiding being left at the altar with no one, is to get married as early as possible (much like Chazal say and is the Torah way.) She will not accept any suggestions from anyone to delay marriage for an alleged societal benefit, but to her great indefinite detriment.

    #2156630
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    “If all Roshei Yeshiva would get together and….” would solve like 99% of all internal problems in Klal Yisroel today. However, not only do too many people (including many Roshei Yeshivos) have too much riding on our current system, it’s also really really difficult to turn the ship that is our community in a different direction, no matter how many people are pulling at the rudder.

    #2156666
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    To clarify:
    There are 700 plus bachurim in Brisk of R A. Y.
    Another approx 700 in what is called Praegers who are there because they didn’t get in to Brisk.
    Another couple of hundred in other places like Yagdil and such for the same reason. E.g. They didn’t have pull or didn’t stay till 4th year in their respective American yeshiva to get on the “reshima”

    All these fine boys are only in EY because its just what you have to do.

    Totally ludicrous. Absolutely crazy. We are being led by our nose by a couple of Chaims Berels and Shmerels [to quote one famous American RY]

    #2156667
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    American, bochurim go to rav tzvi after 3 or 4 years in BM – Torah Ohr is after high school or one year of BM.

    #2156675

    > intensity that brisket yeshivos offer,

    I think file mignon yeshivas are more intense, at least from the point of view of required shechita.

    #2156677

    > From her perspective, the best shot at avoiding being left at the altar with no one, is to get married as early as possible

    exactly, that is why this is not going to work out on it’s own, but requires leadership. I think I read Telshe yeshiva in the 70s saying that early marriages are the main causes of family problems in the frum community of that time…

    #2156678

    YS > If all Roshei Yeshiva would get together and….”

    Rav Steinsaltz wondered aloud why we simply not follow the Gemora that says when all Talmidei Chachamaim would daven together on the same street of Yerushalaim, Moschiach will come.

    He also answered – we misunderstand it, It is only when Moschiach will come, such event will happen …

    #2157120
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    What?!? Because of the 0.06% of learning boys are who wait two years to get into Brisk? Get a life. Or a calculator.

    #2157241
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    We are tallking about thousand plus boys.
    I think you are without the calculator.

    #2157252
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    You mean your math fails because you lack the other option?

    #2157320
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    nomesorah
    I understand you relish in the fact that mesorah and anyone who cares about authentic yiddishkeit means didley squat to you.
    I have no idea how you came to your eqation of bachurim who want to go to Brisk is 0.06% of learning boys population.
    Did you google it?
    But one thing I do know is that they comprise a very big bulk of the serious lomdei torah in the yeshiva circles of the next generation.
    So make fun and leitzonus all you want. You are after all a self proclaimed No Mesorahnik who probably goes into the catagory of soinei talmidei chachomim and soinei torah which the last I heard is based on our mesorah for genarations up to Har Sinai.

    #2157439
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear American,

    Sorry for going so tough on you. You deserve a better welcome.

    The topic you started here, is not coherent. If you have an issue with the Brisk factor, than discuss that. If you want to insinuate that learning boys are destroying their lives because their are not groveling to marry at 17, than join the choir. If you hate that so many active minds are in service of their Roshei Yeshiva, then meet with YAFFED. Or go real extreme and meet with LIBBY.

    I’m responding to your theory that boys are delaying moving on with their life just to get into Brisk. While some may wait an extra zman, most won’t pause endlessly just to get into Brisk. Your whole theory is shaky to begin with. But at least start of with a true reckoning of the facts. The amount of bachurim that spend two years just waiting to get into Brisk, is miniscule.

    #2159442
    Zushy
    Participant

    Guys guys guys

    let’s set a few thing straight

    1) there is undoubtedly a point that boys are delaying marriage to learn in e”y

    2) There is undoubtedly a tremendous amount to gain by learning in e”y, both in terms of intensity, in terms of hashkapha, and in terms of kodshim

    Both points are true.

    Does anyone have a solution to these two points to try and fix things?

    #2159496
    Zushy
    Participant

    Don’t get this

    If I’m the last poster why is my name not on the list.

    #2159586
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Zushy,

    Both points are doubtful.

    #2159626
    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    What is the authoritative Brisk hierarchy?
    Reb Avrohom Yehoshua is at the top.
    Where do Reb Yechiels, Yagdil, Reb Tzvi’s, reb Shalom Shechter, praeger’s fit in?

    #2159741

    PS It is bizarre how values changed over time.

    #2159739

    This is discussed in the end of Nedarim: a guy makes a neder not to get benefit from anyone in the world if he were to marry until he finishes learning the whole mishna. Apparently, marriage in those times required people to work, so he wanted to learn first full time and used neder to strengthen himself. Apparently, he needed chizuk as it was not “a thing”…

    Then, turns out, he is not that capable, so he was not able to finish Mishna so far. Apparently, there was no social promotion at the time.

    So, now he is sitting and “learning” and not able to get married. Apparently, learning to avoid social obligations was frown upon at the time, so all amoraim rush to trick the guy into marrying and then throw dirt on him, so he now needs a cleaner (apparently, he did not learn cleaning skills also), so he goes to do hatarat nedarim.

    #2159763
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    @YosefSeb

    They are places where bachurim go if they couldn’t get into R Avraham Y.
    Most of them are there only by default. Not all but most.

    #2159940
    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    I know in the past Reb Meshulam Dovid was viewed as #2 behind RAY. I heard that Reb Shalom Shechter was a tier behind that. But if you had to make a list in order of preference, what would it be? EG your typical “not aleph aleph” bachur with no pull to get into RAY.

    #2159981
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The exception to that is rav tzvi kaplan; no one goes there by default after not getting into rav avrohom yehoshua. You’re there because you want to be in a pressure cooker with hardcore mussar that will break every American notion in your head

    #2160036
    Ari256
    Participant

    Being that people are so concerned…
    Why not give the girls something to do instead of pressuring boys and telling them when to get married when there is already a big enough yetzer without the extra pressure.

    Concerned man.

    #2160037
    Ari256
    Participant

    Being that people are so concerned…
    Why not give the girls something to do for an extra year or two and make a rule that boys and girls should only marry with in their age instead of pressuring boys and telling them when to get married when there is already a big enough yetzer without the extra pressure.

    Secondly there are psychological reasons why older boys and younger girls are better matches

    Concerned man.

    #2160195
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Why is there a ranking of different yeshivos? It should be about which one is the best fit for each person. They’re not one size fits all.

    I had heard also that RAY was considered “better” than R’ Dovid. A friend told me he was going to R’ Dovid’s yeshiva, and I jokingly said, “You couldn’t get into RAY?” He replied, “Why should I learn by a grandson of the Brisker Rav when I can learn by his son?”
    One of my Rabbeim from Darchei had an extremely low opinion of RAY. He used to refer to him as AJ. Someone once asked him what the issue was, and he replied, “My mother taught me, if you have nothing nice to say, don’t say anything at all.” The boy asked, “Rebbe, there’s nothing good to say?” The Rebbe replied, “His father was a big talmud chacham.”

    There was a story told when I was in yeshiva about RAY. Supposedly he strongly disagreed with a psak that R’ Moshe Feinstein had given, and wasn’t shy about saying so. Once, in shiur, he was talking about it, and he yelled out, “ah Feinstein hut gemacht a churban in America!”
    R’ Elya Svei’s son (I believe that’s who it was) was in the shiur. He stood up and yelled back, “I heard it was a Soloveitchik!” Then he walked out of the room.

    #2160246
    ujm
    Participant

    DaMoshe: Did you hear any other bubbe maisas that you want to share?

    #2160405
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ujm, happens to be I’ve heard the story about rav avrohom yehoshua criticizing, or in the brisker lingo, levying “bikores” on rav Moshe. He had no problem doing so publicly in his 30s when ue came out shtark against rav shach, the gadol hador. It’s not that he didn’t hold of them, it’s a brisker mahalach which is commonly misunderstood. And I’ve heard the part about a bochur saying “in America we say that a soloveitchik made a churban”

    But…it also got brisker talmidim blacklisted in the rest of the israeli yeshiva world. Not so in America; quite the opposite, actually.

    As for a rebbe publicly calling rav avrohom yehoshua by his English initials…does he call rabbi yoshe ber JB? Probably not. It’s an insult to kovod Hatorah. Whatever you think of rav avrohom yehoshua, he was respected by the brisker inner circles, despite there being plenty of politics. Darchei is a great Yeshiva, but that’s not something a talmid chacham would do – if for nothing else than for the position rav avrohom yehoshua occupies. It’s a bizayon Hatorah.

    #2160400
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    It was Rabbi Pini LIpshitz not Reb Elya Svei’s son

    #2160576
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Aveirah, I don’t think I ever heard that Rebbe talk about R’ Yoshe Ber, so I can’t really answer your question. I definitely remember him saying some very negative things about RAY.
    I also remember hearing that RAY used to daven Mincha b’yichidus somewhat often, instead of davening with the yeshiva. Someone told me he heard another Rav say “If RAY would daven b’rabim and say lashon hara b’yichidus, instead of the other way around, he’d be much better off!”

    #2160660
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    Moderator
    you are forgetting to update the thread

    #2160644
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Da, there are conditions upon which brisker roshei yeshiva were historically very maikil with tefilah betzibur; rav avrohom yehoshua doing so under those circumstances is not a surprise to me at all.

    One of the rabbonim from the Brog family, i forget which one, gave a drasha about the importance of having a rebbe to us bochurim in camp about 8 years ago. He mentioned his literal adventures with rav dovid soloveitchik, who he developed a close relationship with. He offered to take rav dovid on a bein hazmanim trip, which rav dovid surprisingly agreed to! When it became time to daven mincha, he chose to daven alone, because he was makpid to wear talis and tefilin by mincha, and he didn’t want people around him to think he was a member of a certain chasidus that I’d rather not mention.

    Rav chaim brisker held that minyan is not a chiyuv, which is part of why brisker roshei yeshiva aren’t as makpid on it as other segments of the Torah world.

    Respecting the position of rosh yeshiva when talking to impressionable bochurim is extremely important. It’s like how parents must respect their children’s rebbeim even if they think that they’re mistaken, because of the position they occupy. Now you can switch your kid’s rebbe, but as long as he’s in the class, he needs to have a high impression of the rebbe, as representative of Torah. For a rebbe in darchei to publicly disparage noy just a rosh Yeshiva, but someone many of his talmidim will go to to learn from, is against his duties as a rebbe. To me, it’s enough to make him upgefreight; disqualifying.

    Moshe was even told to show kovod malchus to paroh….is rav avrohom yehoshua worse??

    Again, brisker “bikores” is misunderstood, the same way your rebbe misunderstood davening beyechidus. Maybe he should learn the brisker toros before talking about things he clearly has no idea about.

    #2160716
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Avira, please explain what “Brisker Bikores” is, and why it differs from any other big gadol publicly bashing other gedolim. Some chassidishe rebbes go out of their way to publicly bash other gedolim. Is this also bikores or is it different? As well, where is this heter arupp gebracht in halacha ?

    Thank you very much.

    #2160753
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    Some 25 years ago RAY gave a chumash shiur in which he explained the Briskar shita of “Bikoires”

    He said that having “bikoires” on another gadol doesn’t in any way mean to disqualify that persons greatness. It is just their mesorah to teach bachurim what they feel is right and wrong according to their own Briskar mesoirah and point out where others went astray from what they concider correct.

    He gave a poignant mashal of when by his own Bar Mitzva his father Rav Berel Zatzal took him to get a bracha from the then Mirrer RY ( I forget who it was) even though the day before his father shreid away about something that RY did.

    He understood that his father had utmost respect for him even though he disagreed with certain shitos of his.

    He went on to say that our problem is that we judge Gedolim by the news outlets (he specified one) and they “make” our gedolim. THerefore we feel if we made them than having taynos on them ultimately brakes them.

    Disclaimer: I am not saying I or others agree to their shita and explanation. But as he himself said that doesn’t necessarily disqualify them from gadlus.

    And despite my personal missgiving the mere fact HKBH gave him such success for so many years against all odds when other Yeshivos came and went many time over….seems to show a certain siyata deshmaya he must have.

    #2160756
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    Moderator please post last comment of mine I think it is very importand for people to understand the Briskar shitta.
    That is even though I was the one who started this thread of stopping the going to Brisk trend it is only because i feel it outlived its purpose and has direct effect on boys getting into shidducim 2 years later.

    #2160783
    ujm
    Participant

    How’s it any different than other Gedolim having very strong words against the actions of other Gedolim? i.e. In Ponovezh, Chaim Berlin, Rav Yaakov Emden and Rav Yonosan Eybeschutz, Rambam, etc.

    #2160842
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Without getting into any specific situations, one thing that is always true is that just because someone yarshens a shtelle doesn’t mean they are on their father’s or father-in-law’s madreiga.

    #2160823
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    American, that was a well put explanation of bikores – thank you.

    I also find it ironic that damoshe is fine with his rebbe, who is not from the gedolei hador, criticizing rav avrohom yeshoshua, but is not ok with rav avrohom yehoshua criticizing other rabbonim…

    i suppose it’s ok because it’s your own rebbe, and maybe it gives damoshe a little more comfort in rejecting the frummest elements of klal yisroe, in favor of the fabric-wearing crowd.

    #2160808
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    American Yeshivish, the Mirrer rosh yeshiva was likely Rav Chaim Shmulevitz zt”l who told people to hug a soldier after the 6 Day War.

    #2160858
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    @ Avira your welcome. I thought you would appreciate that

    @lernT I actually think it was Rav Leizer Yudel Zatzal but not sure. I heard this 25 years ago

    #2160860
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Most of those who attend RAY from America are just there for a year or 2 for “shidduchim”. As such:
    1. They don’t absorb the derech of bikores except to quote it on occasion
    2. they eat hand matza
    3. They fast on taaneisim.

    So most of this is not nogeiah .

    #2160861
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Lernt, brisk is a torah community. Rav avrohom yehoshua wouldn’t have been accepted if he weren’t reoi lekach.

    #2160915
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Lernt, there are a lot of brisker hangahos which have become popular among Yeshivaleit, mostly because so many go to brisker affiliated yeshivos. This includes the brisker rov’s chumros on daled minim, particularly the “chut” for hadasim and a very strict standard for yavesh on Lulavim, as well as taking multiple types of Esrogim. Also included are chumros in tekias shofar, and having thick payos. There are a lot of other examples, but i can’t think of them off the top of my head.

    #2161009

    Thanks all for explaining how to understand gedolim talking about each other. I don’t think this is anything new, we have strong machlokets all over Gemora and history.

    a couple of side comments:
    Chumros are nedorim, stay away. Note that none of the chumros mentioned are bein adam l’havero or personal middos. If there are any at any part of your head, pls quote them, I am interested.

    > Now you can switch your kid’s rebbe, but as long as he’s in the class, he needs to have a high impression of the rebbe, as representative of Torah.

    This may be true in a free market environment, when you freely choose a yeshiva. But when there is a limited choice of schools and school chooses teachers, I am not sure it is correct. I tried to follow that to the “T”, and it may lead to bad results. In some cases (and ages), it may become healthier to set boundaries. for example, if Avira were a teacher, I would tell kids – listen to your teacher about Rashi and brisker, and bring everything related to Zionism and college back to me so that we could discuss.

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