July 4, 2013 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #1040097
yytz – again, I don’t disagree with those chazal. You entirely misunderstood the point of my OP.July 4, 2013 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1040098eclipseMember
Not to minimize anyone’s argument, but if you want a moment of comic relief, please scroll up to my little off-the-battlefield post.
Aren’t the 3 weeks an an odd time for posters to be INSULTING each other? Why HURT other people? Even if you are defending kovod hatorah, kindly consider kovod habriyos.July 5, 2013 8:14 am at 8:14 am #1040099
Morally, human beings take precedence over animals. If a person would donate to the ASPCA before doing anything to help people, they’re denying the idea that humans are made in imitatio Dei, not animals, who lack rationality and the Divine imprint that humans have.
I do donate to the ASPCA, but I also do donate to groups that actually feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and liberate the oppressed.July 5, 2013 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1040100
Rebdoniel, let’s say you first gave $99 to poor, sick, and needy people and to support Torah learning, and then you gave one dollar to the ASPCA or a similar organization. Do you not reckon that there is a poor widow or lonely orphan somewhere which could really use that dollar, but which you instead chose to give to the ASPCA to help a streetcat?July 5, 2013 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1040101ChaimyParticipant
The aspca is an organization that could be compared to the red cross. It is not run by the city or a gov. entity, it just has non profit status. You can donate to the red cross they help people.July 5, 2013 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1040102
Animals relationship to humans, when a human is actually looking at an animal, is an emotional experience.
The commercials appeal to emotions to get results, even if they do so in a syrupy manner.
Someone has to care about the animals.
The Torah contains the oldest and best animal rights statutes to be found anywhere.
Long story short, we are here, in part, due to animals.
When Noach’s son was asked what they did on the tayva to merit existing and surviving the flood, he responded that they took care of the animals.
Too often we respond to caring about animals by pitting them against humans, which is absurd. In most cases a human life in more valuable (exceptions would be various stripes of y’mach shemom), but by saying humans (for the most part) are more valuable, too often leads to the neglect of caring for animals.
Let people who want to care about animals do so without prejudice.July 5, 2013 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1040103
I’m sorry, but your statements are not in line with Torah thought. As difficult as it is to understand, even the most vile, lowlife “yemach shmo” is intrinsically worth more than a boat full of the largest, rarest, and most magnificent of animals. Also, Noach’s sons in no way survived in the merit of animals, but rather in the merit of the chessed they performed on the animals and in helping Noach with his duties. Humans are ALWAYS more valuable than animals, and animals were only created as natural-resources to help humans in the service of God. Though they do contain some lower level of soul (nefesh) – their purpose in being created is no different than that of a carrot’s.July 5, 2013 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1040104
I’d suggest people read R’ Dovid Sears’ book on Compassion for Animals and Judaism for a better insight into these matters.July 5, 2013 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1040105HealthParticipant
Curiosity -“I’m sorry, but your statements are not in line with Torah thought.”
Actually your line isn’t in jist with the Torah, as I’ll explain. I did somewhat agree with your OP, but now you’re getting out of line.
“As difficult as it is to understand, even the most vile, lowlife “yemach shmo” is intrinsically worth more than a boat full of the largest, rarest, and most magnificent of animals.”
You see clearly not like that from Parshas Noach. While Hashem had to destroy most of the animals because some say they were Mushpah from the humans, clearly he felt it important to save every kind of his animals and even more Tahor animals than all the Reshayim then.
“their purpose in being created is no different than that of a carrot’s.”
This statement is ridiculous. You don’t have to have Rachmonus on a carrot, but you do on animals -even more than just Tzar Baalei Chaim. There is a Maseh in the Gemorra where Rebbi (I think) didn’t have mercy on a cow and was punished until he showed mercy on cats (or Chuldas/weasels).July 5, 2013 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1040106
Health. I disagree. You cannot use Hashem’s cheshbonos of who he saves and who he punishes to decide who has more worth. The Torah and chazal are very, very clear that a human being had a tzelem Elokim which animals do not have. That makes a human being’s life intrinsically more worthy than that of an animal’s. I did not say more “deserving,” only more inherently worthy.
Secondly, you misinterpret my carrot statement. I am not saying you have the same responsibility towards an animal as you do towards a carrot. I am only saying that their end goals are just the same: To be used by mankind to serve God. Whether that service is in the form of being used to feed anee’im, or in the form of being the means by which mankind exercises their compassion, is completely irrelevant. I am well aware of that Gemara and am not refuting it. The reason I made this statement was to refute rebdoniel’s implication that somehow evil human beings depreciate in value until they are worth less than animals. As proof, I propose you take a look back at parshas Balak and the Chazal discussing the reason for the death of Bilaam’s ancient and miraculous talking donkey, which happened as to not slight the honor of Bilaam- the Hitler of his days- who set out to commit genocidal annihilation against klal Israel.July 5, 2013 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1040107zeeshanaayan07Member
what is the meaning of stupid aspca commercial…?July 7, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #1040108HealthParticipant
Curiosity -“Health. I disagree. That makes a human being’s life intrinsically more worthy than that of an animal’s. I did not say more “deserving,” only more inherently worthy.”
Ya’see what you did was call him out on something when he was correct. Instead of admitting you’re wrong -you start with mind games. NOONE was talking about “intrinsically more worth”.
“In most cases a human life in more valuable (exceptions would be various stripes of y’mach shemom),”
This is correct.
“Curiosity – BTGuy-
I’m sorry, but your statements are not in line with Torah thought.”
He didn’t talk about “intrinsically more worth”, so his statements are in line with the Torah!July 7, 2013 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1040109
While we’re supposed to avoid tzaar baalei hayyim, there is a long-standing halakhic tradition (Tosafot mentions that it is mutar to kick the legs of a beheima you capture in war, IIRC, and the Rema paskened that it was ok to pluck a feather out of a live goose for use as a quill) upholding a utalitarian view of our relationship to animals; as with the rest of creation, man’s relation to beast is one of both stewardship and utility. Animals do not have rights and personifying them weakens the distinction between animals and humans, who alone are created be tzelem elokim.July 7, 2013 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1040110WIYMember
“What is funny about animals dying on the street?
Animals dying in the street is funny?
That it doesn’t matter at all if animals die in the street. Of course they die in the street–they also live in the street! Where would you want them to live? In a house? They don’t live in houses–they’re animals!
animals “dying on the street” is not simply a description of the location of their death. It is also indicative of their lifestyle and cause of death. It means that the animal did not find a place with a family or even a shelter, and instead scavenged scraps on the street, was likely disease-ridden, and almost certainly died of starvation.
Animals don’t need a home! They don’t need a human family! They are supposed to eat scraps. That is what they naturally do!
Did you hear about the poor deer? It lived in the forest without even a tent, and then it was murdered by a wolf and eaten alive! What a pity–lololol”
I guess you didnt read last weeks parsha about the godros for the tzon and how about Yakov Avinu building succos for his animals?October 22, 2014 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1040111
Animal cruelty and abandonment is a very real and tragic thing. The ASPCA is doing “some” part (as I believe they do selective euthanization – and are not a no-kill organization). PETA does a much better job at lessening tzar balei chaim.
For those not so conditioned to think animals are not just “animals”, if someone wants to work on behalf of animals, or someone wants to help animals, G-d bless them.October 22, 2014 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1040112
PETA kills animals for no reason.October 22, 2014 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1040113
Curiosity, I am sorry but your views are not in line with the Torah. They are the cultural and predictable party line of those whom I have heard from before, with little concern, experience, or understanding of animals to begin with.
Because I dont have the time to expound on all the laws of precious thoughtfulness to precious animals, or examples of our ancestors and their delicate and thoughtful care of animals, I will go on to say, in brief, the greatest guidelines for animal rights, as well as examples of kindness to animals, as well as the Creator’s loving view of animals, are all contained within our own Holy Torah!October 29, 2014 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1040115
Hi RebbYidd23. I feel its unbecoming of Jews to participate in big lies. Historically, we have been victims of this like no other.
I understand it is not your fault. There is a “cultural” phenomenon in our community of people conditioned to parrot a particular spin on things with a sense of righteousness, even though they have zero direct experience, or have done any research.
Peta has done tremendous work to prosecute animal abusers and save the lives of animals used for experimentation, such as in the case of John Hopkins University adopting computer imagery over dissection of cats and pigs for students not really at the stage of declaring a specialty. And cosmetic companies using placenta to test ingredients instead of wiring up rabbits and monkeys.
Animal Liberation Front has also done some nice work, saving the rest of us time from having to work on solving tzar balei chaim injustices in this world.
In my experience, the only animals I see killed for no reason are the families who get their kinderlach pets like hamsters, gerbils, rabbits, etc., and when the kids stop feeding them for about a week, they release these “pet shop” pets into the woods, where they will not survive. Additionally, boys like to do things such as cover baby squirrels in Purell. Older boys like to throw bird eggs in the parking lot until all of them are broken, or they like to have contests throwing bricks to see who can joyfully knock a birds nest out of the tree first, whether the nest is occupied or not.
Other than those scenarios, I dont think Peta or ALF kill animals. They save them.October 29, 2014 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1040116ari-freeParticipant
Animals should absolutely be used for experimentation. It serves a human need.
The problem is only when someone tortures an animal just because he feels like it and doesn’t serve any other purpose.October 29, 2014 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1040117
With all due respect, that view is outmoded and part of the conditioning process whereby people have not done their own research on the matter.
I applaud those innovators who have advanced science with advanced methods to determine what is suitable for humans, and moved beyond thinking results from other species apply to the human condition, and in the process spared countless lives of innocent living creatures, whether it is for medical research or consumer products.October 29, 2014 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1040118
Believe or not I have a pet I got from a shelterOctober 29, 2014 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1040119
Awesome vayoel! 😀October 29, 2014 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1040120
Cat it’s good I don’t get a lot of visitors people are to afraid of a 10 year old cat lolOctober 29, 2014 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1040121
Cats are great! I always say, never underestimate the awareness of an animal. Cats are very cool and astute pets. Enjoy!
Incidentally, I believe I can safely say it is a mitzva for you to have rescued and now are taking care of your cat, even though it is a two-way street and our pets offer us a lot as well. Here is the ryah:
I dont recall the details, and you probably know better than I do, but I believe Avraham’s grandson or great-grandson had asked one of Noach’s children about what mitzvos they were able to do on the taiva to merit sustaining themselves and to merit surviving. He answered by saying, “We took care of the animals.”October 29, 2014 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1040122
I’m not anti-rescue, I just don’t think it’s right to kill innocent animals just because it’s hard to find a place for them.October 29, 2014 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1040123
My fellow chassidim think I’m nuts for having oneOctober 29, 2014 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1040124
Everyone should have a cat. Cats are seriously awesome.October 29, 2014 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1040125November 7, 2014 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1040126
BT Guy – I don’t think you understood my point of view before criticizing it – I’m as against unnecessary tza’ar ba’alei chayim as the next guy. Also, PETA are a bunch of extremists who do terrible things to people, animals, and society in the name of their “cause”. Any good that they do is heavily outweighed by the damage they cause.
As a side point, using the words “and I quote” gives you no credibility without citing where you got your quotes. Also, I know (personally and of) many researchers in academia still opt for animal trials for a plethora of reasons. It’s not as “outdated” as some may have you believe.
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