July 25, 2022 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #2108759Avram in MDParticipant
“scientists themselves acknowledge that it is impossible for them to prove one way or the other (according to Einstein’s theory of relativity)”
I don’t think the issue is that they cannot prove one or the other – but rather either can be chosen as a valid frame of reference. Also, you and ujm are bringing in Einstein, but this form of relativity is older and applicable in Newtonian physics. Einstein’s special relativity showed that our observations of time and mass are also dependent on the frame of reference, and general relativity addresses gravity.July 25, 2022 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #2108801
Avram in Md,
Nu nu, point remains the same.
The ikar is that we try to stay away from פירושים דחוקים in Torah and apologetics, especially when אין מקרא יוצא מידי פשוטו is not a contradiction to modern science.
מנחם שמוJuly 25, 2022 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #2108845
Menachem, you give too much credence to modern science. EVEN IF modern science categorically declared with great unequivocality a certain “fact” that didn’t comport with what the Torah or Chazal wrote, we would have absolutely no reason to no longer take what the Torah or Chazal declares as absolute literal truth, or doubt it even in the slightest, despite the “science” to the contrary.
Science can be, and often is, overturned.July 25, 2022 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #2108886
You are absolutely right.
“Science can be, and often is, overturned.”
As it was, with the theory of relativity, flat earth, etc.
At the same time, it is even more ridiculous when the people who try to reinterpret the Torah to fit with the science are עמי הארץ in science as well.
Hashem helped the scientists discover new theories that support the Torah, and if we take notice of this, it can give us tremendous chizzuk that also in other areas where current science seems to contradict Torah (e.g., age of the universe, etc.) – we shouldn’t be ashamed to believe in the Torah’s view.
מנחם שמוJuly 25, 2022 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #2108895
a simple example that we can comprehend: if you are in a train with closed windows, it is impossible to know whether the train is stopped or moving with perfect constant velocity, with no acceleration. So, it makes no sense to ask “am I truly at rest”? being at rest is same as moving at constant velocity.
the reason we think there is a “center”, because the center is “stationary” while the rest are moving with acceleration around it.
BUT similarly to the above (from memory, not gonna to revisit Einsteinian physics until the kids get there 🙂 turns out when there is acceleration, you will not be able to distinguish it from gravity. At the end, you can write down equations using any accelerating point as a “center” (0,0,0) and describe all other movements relative to that.July 25, 2022 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #2108896
It may be that we are rarely revisiting what we learned in the cheder. Yes, Rashi says that yom is 24 hours, but there are other rishonim also.July 25, 2022 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #2108930
Always, question out of ignorance: Which Rashi? Which rishonim?July 26, 2022 12:02 am at 12:02 am #2108937
If the world was created in six days when was Shabbos created? I saw somewhere that each day was created originally 28 hours and each day gave up 4 hours to form Shabbos.July 26, 2022 12:18 am at 12:18 am #2108941
According to Einstein we can explain that the nothing that the world was created from was energy. If matter can be converted to energy then energy could be converted to matter.July 26, 2022 9:12 am at 9:12 am #2108981
The Torah says the world was created in 6 days. And that Rashi says explicitly that when the Torah says Vayehi Erev Vayehi Voker Yom Echad it means 24 hours.
The 6 days of creation were in fact 24 hours. How could they not be? Aren’t days 24 hours now? So when did this change? Where does it indicate in the slightest that the first Sunday after creation (or the first Shabbos?) was suddenly shorter than previous days?
On the contrary – it’s clear that on the fourth day Hashem said the sun should shine during the time-period that was called “day” and the stars/darkness should rule during the time-period called “night”. Since then, that hasn’t changed, and obviously as we can see today, the sun and the stars have decided that the time period called day plus the time period called night, are 24 hours.
The Gemora says this explicitly. It describes 10 things that were created on the first day of creation, one of which is the “length of the day and night” – as it says, “vayehi erev vayehi voke yom echad”. So the time span of the day was created on the first day of creation. And, as Rashi states, it means “[the day and night together] – i.e. 24 hours between them”.July 26, 2022 11:34 am at 11:34 am #2109048
If the six days of creation weren’t literal 24 hour days, then maybe also Shabbos isn’t literally every seven 24-hour days? Maybe we should rest every 7 thousand years? Or every 7 million years? Or billion?
ששת ימים תעבוד . .ויום השביעי שבת . . כי ששת ימים עשה ה’ . . וינח ביום השביעי
(ראה פרקי דרבי אליעזר פ”ג ואילך; מדרש רבה בראשית; סנהדרין לח, ב. ובכמה מקומות)
מנחם שמוJuly 26, 2022 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #2109147
The 4 hours given up by each of the 6 days adds up to 24 hours for Shabbos. So Shabbos was also created in the 6 days but given up and created before the world was created.July 26, 2022 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2109260rightwriterParticipant
How do we know a day is 24 hours. Isnt time as we know it today a new concept? Who decided an hour should be the hour we know of today? Why are there 24 hours in a day and not less or more?July 26, 2022 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #2109270
RW: Because that’s what Hashem set and created during maase bereishis. It’s been that way since Day 1.July 27, 2022 3:34 am at 3:34 am #2109284
Saying that yom is 24 hours is anachronism. At the Chumash times, Jews probably used Talmudic uneven hours: dividing day in 12 parts. Not sure what Egyptians used. Night didn’t have a sundial for such precision so it has 3-4 shifts. Possibly 12 hours correspond to 12 months or general Babylonian method of dividing 6, 60, etc
Interestingly French revolution converted space and weight to metric but they couldn’t concur Jewish time: ten day week and ten hour day wasn’t accepted, but they triedJuly 27, 2022 10:15 am at 10:15 am #2109361
This 24 hour argument is out of context.
The discussion is not how Adam Harishon built his clock/sundial (if he divided the day into 24 parts or 12 parts or 2 parts), the discussion is if ששת ימי בראשית were 100 billion years (ר”ל) or six days.
Apologetics vs. Literal understanding of chumash, midrash, gemara, rashi, etc.
I still wonder: Do the apologists celebrate Shabbos with their families every 7 billion years?
I once met a staunch מאמין in science who didn’t keep Shabbos ר”ל. When I asked him why, he said that of course he keeps Shabbos! But according to the orthodox Jews he spoke to, the six days of creation cannot be taken literally, so they must have been billions of years.
“Don’t worry,” he said, “today is still Sunday for me. In 6 billion years I’ll start preparing for Shabbos!”
When I tried explaining him that Shabbos is definitely literal, he argued:
“Don’t lie to me! I know the 10 commandments: Work for six days and rest on the seventh, BECAUSE G-d created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. Whatever 7 days means in creation is what it means with regards to Shabbos!”
[מעשה שהי’ יכול להיות]
מנחם שמוJuly 27, 2022 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2109396
Your question is absurd and story made me laugh at loud
I genuinly don;lt understand the conncection why does the length of Shabbos have to mirror the length of the days of brias haolam.
Hashem said rest every seventh day, so we do. period. the Why is interesting but it doesnt affect the practice
In order to celebrate Pesach, do you have to believe Hashem walked around Mitzrayim and physically jumped over (the literal definition) every house r”l ?
Are you saying the Rambam didn’t avoid Gid Hanasha because he did not believe Yaakov’s thigh was literally struck (he writes it was a dream, sure the Ramban argues) After all in your view if something didn’t literally happen it makes no sense.
According to the Reb Eliezer (the Tanna,) that Basukos hoshvti are not literal Sukkos, does that mean he holds we dont need to sit in a Sukkah on Sukkos?
I’m not big into this idea that days are million years, but your problem with it is silly .
There are several examples where we commemorate something not literal* (Ribono shel olam passing over us, Anneini Hakovod as Sukkos) in a literal physical way. So it is possible Hashem created the world in 6 “days” lasting billlions of years that we commemorate every 7th day in the literal sense. IT isn’t even a tiny stretch to say this
*Note please don’t confuse “not literal” for fake ch”v. Hashem’s Zeroa Netuah is not literal (to say it is is kefira) nonetheless it is real., Similarly Hashem doesn’t literally pass over a house, nonetheless He did. A Ananei hakovod is not literally a sukkah (obviously) it is still real thing Hashem protected us withJuly 27, 2022 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2109429
The Rav Malbim says that the mabul created a chemical change so the carbon test does not work as things are older than they seem. According to this that a day of creation might not have been 24 hours we understand why the goyim think that the world is billions of years old.July 27, 2022 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2109431
To add to my comment
the very notion that Hashem “worked” and “rested” are obviously not literal. Hashem speaks in a way that we understand, and we commemorate what we are told using human expressions and practices.
So IF Hashem created the world in 6 “days” lasting 6 billion years. IT would be nonsensical to commemorate this by keeping 6 billion years of weekday Rather we commemorate it using human terms of literal days. Just as we observe by resting even if this is different than Hashem’s “resting”
UJM’s questions are harder to dismiss, and I don’t have a good answerJuly 27, 2022 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2109448Avram in MDParticipant
Did Adam harishon have a navel?July 27, 2022 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2109459
ubiq: Which questions of mine are you referring to?July 27, 2022 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #2109531GadolhadorahParticipant
And on a related note, some may recall the discussion here several months ago after the Senate nearly unanimously passed a bill calling for year-round daylight savings time. This would have created a bit of a challenge for daveners since sunrise in the midwest would not occcur until 8 AM for over 135 days/year and after 9 AM for roughly 30 days a year. (whether the earth rotated around the sun or vice versa). For those ehrliche yidden who have already received permission to leave early on Fridays to get home before licht benchen, asking the boss to arrive an hour late 1/3 days of the year (and even later on Mondays and Thursdays) might have been a strech.
Anyway, the House leadership announced yesterday that they have no plans to bring the Senate bill to a vote on the house floor in the foreseeable future (aka DST is DOA)July 27, 2022 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #2109479
“The 6 days of creation were in fact 24 hours. How could they not be? Aren’t days 24 hours now? So when did this change? Where does it indicate in the slightest that the first Sunday after creation (or the first Shabbos?) was suddenly shorter than previous days?”
The when did it change question,
In general this whole approach doesn’t appeal to me, it helps one “issue” and ignores others for example the order of creation, So you get all twisted into a pretzel for what exactly?
years ago I heard some fellow explain how the days are really billion years or whatever then when he was questioned on the long lifespans, he explained 700 years was really 70 or something like that.
So these days are abnormally long those years are abnormally quick the whole thing is odd to me.
But if some people gain from it, besder, I don’t understand why other people get all bent out of shape. This leading to not keeping Shabbos, concern is completely absurd
We keep Shabbos because Hashem told us to. Why? To remind us of brias haolam which we are told occurred in 7 days. does matter as far as observance if they were “really” 7 days or 7 billion years? No of course not
Similarly We keep Sukkos because Hashem told us to. Why? To remind us of Sukkos we were in in the midbar does matter as far as observance if they were real sukkos or the ananei hakovod ? No of course notJuly 27, 2022 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #2109477
Some say that Hashem created things with the words of His mouth, so we should be careful what we say on Shabbos as the mishna 4th Perek in Demai says that we trust people on Shabbos as they don’t lie.July 27, 2022 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #2109579
ubiquitin, I’m happy that you liked the story!
You’re right, even if the 7 days of creation wouldn’t be literal, we would still have to keep Shabbos every seven days (nice example you gave from sukkah!).
There is definitely no worry of people actually not keeping Shabbos because of this (the story was just for comical relief. Although I could imagine someone coming up with this סברה just to excuse himself, but that doesn’t make a difference).
The point I was trying to make (as I have seen written by gedolim) was that just as we take the 7 days of work literally, there is no reason not to take the 7 days of creation literally, unless we would have a true Torah’dike reason to think so.
The fact that currently there are scientific theories that “prove” otherwise shouldn’t make us learn apologetic interpretations in the simple pshat of the Torah, Midrash, Gemara, Rashi, etc.
(especially according to the Malbim (and many others) which Reb Eliezer brought)
However, your point is true that there are times when Torah tells us that something is a משל, and I wouldn’t say that believing this regarding ששת ימי בראשית is כפירה.
מנחם שמוJuly 27, 2022 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #2109590
interesting for the literal shabbos length.
if you are saying that belief in yom being always 24 years is needed to be shomer shabbos, h’V, then what do we do with shmitah that is shabbos for the eretz?! is shabbos a day? then what do we do with a year?July 27, 2022 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2109602
Obviously, the aforementioned belief is not NEEDED to be shomer shabbos, as I clarified in my last post.
To the best of my knowledge, the Torah doesn’t say that we rest in Shmita because Hashem rested on the seventh day. [Although this may be explained in other places, it is not the explicit reason given in Torah]. Whereas regarding weekly Shabbos this reason is stated explicitly in Torah.
[Maybe this is actually proof that ששת ימי בראשית are 24-hour days. If not, the Torah could have said regarding Shmita, “work for six years and rest in the seventh, because Hashem created the world in six years and rested in the seventh.”
After all, days, months, and years are just תקופות and shouldn’t be taken literally.
(This is obviously not a strong proof because we can’t dictate what the Torah “should have said,” but I’m just turning it back on you.)]
מנחם שמוJuly 27, 2022 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2109599
Shemitah is related to Shabbos according to the Yismach Moshe. In 7 years there are exactly 365 Shabbosim, adding up to a year. 7 X 52 = 364 and one left every year giving another Shabbos totaling 365 days. We rest the earth for one year to make up for the earth not resting in 7 years.July 28, 2022 12:18 am at 12:18 am #2109612GadolhadorahParticipant
I continue to be awed by the absolutely limitless scope of knowledge and insight that Reb E is able to share with us and the clear and insightful way in which his posts communicate.July 28, 2022 12:19 am at 12:19 am #2109615
Menachem, RebE, but what is the symbolism behind shmitah, and Torah seemingly means that this is symbolic, not just agricultural technology. If having something “seventh” is meaningful regardless of what it is, then any other “seventh” is also meaningful. The main argument “for” yom = 24 hours is based on preponderance of such statements in mesorah, although some sources may allow other allegories, and also reject other options based on the science of their days. As you read modern authors on both sides (some count actually 6 sides), each of them does not look fully proven (and that is why I am not bothering quoting any, sorry). I guess one lesson we can learn from history of science that sometimes one must suspend judgment until further information. Not everyone in history appreciated how much was still unknown and often “jumped to conclusions”.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.