Summer and Winter

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  • #2107992
    rightwriter
    Participant

    What makes some days/years hotter and some days colder than others? Isn’t the sun at the same distance every summer and every winter?

    #2107999
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    No. it is not in a circle that the earth travels but an ellipse.

    #2108000
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    No

    The sun goes closer and then further away as the year goes on

    #2108001
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    The earth tilts toward and from the Sun, depending on the season

    #2108004
    shebbesonian
    Participant

    The earth is tilted on its axis, so during the winter the sun is lower in the sky and shines on earth on a shallower angle, spreading its light over a greater area and less heat hits any given spot. Also days are shorter and there is less time for Earth to heat up during the day.
    During summer, the sun is higher in the sky, shines at a steeper angle and days are longer.

    #2108037

    Interestingly, earth 🌎 is furthest away from the sun 😎 in early January, by just 5 mln km than in July. So, their calendar 📆 had indeed solar shoresh. Ironically, they are the furthest distance away from their avoda zara, while Jews are closest to Hashem at Rosh Hashanah!

    #2108020

    Who said the day is getting shorter? The watches simply go faster during the day during winter and slower at night due to changes in gravitation. The proof is that I am as hungry for shaloshseudos during the winter as I am during the summer.

    Anyway it is asur to delve into this, as it may lead you to internet search, library or high school physics. All of them lead many people to mixed dancing hvsh

    #2108016
    rightwriter
    Participant

    Guys i know the sun is closer to earth is summer and farther in winter i didnt ask why its hot in summer and cold in winter. I asked what makes some summers hotter and some winters colder.

    #2108015
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Different distances and different angles.

    #2108052

    Rw, for America specifically pacific current la Nina and oto haish determine a pattern of earm and cold for a year… Given that these current names are so crudely gendered, they will surely be verboten in the near future

    And that is why they are called “currents” . So when they will bam these sexist currents, climate change will cease and all years will be equally cool. Omen.
    Ps my Freudian spell check tried to change omen to women

    #2108134
    ujm
    Participant

    Wait, none of the usual suspects reprimanded the OP yet for an allegedly poor education?

    Hello, huju and company, where are you?

    #2108140
    ymribiat
    Participant

    The moderator needs to do a better jos on blocking trolls from attacking Yeshiva education.

    #2108141
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    You guys are all a bunch of amaratzim.
    The sun is actually CLOSER to us during the NORTHERN WINTER. How come NOBODY thought about the Southern half which is ALWAYS opposite of the north?? no one even mentioned it!!
    Summer and Winter comes from the 23.5 degree tilt of Earth. When south is tilted toward the sun = southern summer and northern winter, and vice versa.
    basic science, come on guys and gals.

    #2108145
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ujm,

    Trump wasn’t mentioned

    Rightwriter,

    There is winds and cloud covering involved too

    #2108154
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Guys i know the sun is closer to earth is summer and farther in winter”

    This is only correct in the Southern hemisphere.
    Perihelion, when the earth is closes to the sun is about Jan 3, this is during the winter in the Northern hemisphere.
    Apehilion, when the earth is furthest from the sun is July 4 (this year) , this is during the summer in the Northern hemisphere.

    “Interestingly, earth 🌎 is furthest away from the sun 😎 in early January, by just 5 mln km than in July. So, their calendar 📆 had indeed solar shoresh. Ironically, they are the furthest distance away from their avoda zara, while Jews are closest to Hashem at Rosh Hashanah!”

    Aside for the first sentence being incorrect, I don’t get the Hashem reference, Hashem lives in the sun?

    As to the OP’s question I don’t know the answer, the trend towards hotter summers is well as to why, well that is well documented and easy to find

    #2108155

    All, Hashem created the world 🌎 for us to enjoy and put all heavenly bodies at the right distances, velocities, eccentricity, inclination… Show hakaras hatov and check out how all of this works! You would not take a psak on halav hacompanies from internet, but you would trust it on maase bereshis!?

    #2108164
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “Rw, for America specifically pacific current la Nina and oto haish determine a pattern of earm and cold for a year…”

    El Nino and La Nina are not currents.

    #2108170

    Apologies for mixing up my hellions! That makes sense then no irony, the goyim are close to their avoda zara during their holiday
    I am comparing/contrasting their physical proximity to their idol with our closeness to Hashem at the Rosh Hashanah

    #2108171

    Ok, surface temperature 🌡️ conditions.

    #2108343
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    According to science the earth has two revolutions. One, around the sun and two, around its own axis, the equator.

    #2108355
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The second revolution above is creating the seasons by the way it is tilting towards the sun.

    #2108360
    ujm
    Participant

    According to Albert Einstein, the sun revolves around the earth.

    #2108370
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    “According to Albert Einstein, the sun revolves around the earth.”

    And Rabbi Moses Maimonides as well.

    #2108378
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    How can a bigger body revolve around the smaller body and not pull it towards itself? From the Torah is no proof, as dibra Torah kalashan bnei adam as people see it and where does Einstein say that?

    #2108394

    RebE > bigger body revolve around the smaller body

    what ujm is saying, that you can write equations from the POV of any one body. Ptolemaic concentric circles were correct, practically speaking. Applied math works based on observations, no need to know the physics completely. Same way as modern AI/machine learning can develop useful patterns using observations, without understanding the mechanism.

    #2108388
    Ray Kaufman
    Participant

    Some of these posts are good arguments for secular studies in yeshiva

    #2108386
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, if you learn the Theory of Relativity, you’ll farshtay.

    #2108410
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Reb Eliezer, RE Torah’s approach, in addition to the Rambam’s position that the sun revolves around the earth, see ספר התכונה of Reb Chaim Vital (prime student of the Arizal) where he has an entire section proving that Copernicus’s opinion that the earth revolves the sun is complete מינות ואפיקורסות.

    https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22193&st=&pgnum=116

    Now, if there would be definite scientific proof that the earth revolves around the sun, we might have a problem. However, any modern day scientist agrees that there is no way to prove which is the correct way.
    The reason why the Copernicus model is so widely accepted is because it makes the entire system much simpler to explain.
    (for example, google: pressconnects earth revolves around sun)

    Why must we be דוחק to say that the Torah wasn’t literal when it fits perfectly with the science?

    See also the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s 2 letters to a “secular” Jew who was in shock and disbelief to hear that the Rebbe held that the sun revolves around the earth:
    no outside links
    (if the link doesn’t go through, google: Rebbe sun revolves around earth)

    (Excerpt from his letter to the Rebbe: “It is however, more than obvious to me that the Rebbe will not, in any way make such a ridiculous statement, because: (a) he does not wish to be labeled as a fool. (b) he himself is not as foolish as some of his ardent but hypnotized followers.”)

    #2108415

    Menachem, thanks for the reference to the letters referring to Einstein relatively theory indeed as saying that you can use any point as a reference to do computations. Maybe people are confused by their sentiment of “revolving”, somehow hinting to importance/centrality of the object. Revolving is simply an orbit that one needs to compute and “revolving about” is what is in coordinate (0,0,0). As we delegate those computations to the computer, we could care less about revolving. There are way more fascinating topics in the history of science/Torah interaction, such as was world created or existed eternally (ok, cheating, chose a winning topic, but it is still interesting). Look it up.

    As to the letters, I wonder:
    1) did the OP actually start keeping mitzvos after receiving the public response as he threatened.

    2) what is the Soviet opposition to Einstein’s theory that Lubavitcher Rebbe is mentioning. I presume this is before they started working on stolen atomic bomb?!

    #2108423
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “It is however, more than obvious to me that the [L] Rebbe will not, in any way make such a ridiculous statement, because he does not wish to be labeled as a fool…”

    Menachem: If the Rebbe, Z’l, did not wish to be labeled as a fool, why would you be so anxious to do do so by suggesting that we still cannot prove the rotational dynamics of our solar system.

    #2108428
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Why would Hashem create something complicated when it can be made simple?

    #2108429
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If we can understand something the simple way, even if the truth is the complicated way, we can use the simple way for our understanding than having to use those concentric circles.

    #2108445
    ujm
    Participant

    In this case the simple way is the truthful way.

    #2108456
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Always,
    1) I hope so. Perhaps someone can reach out to relatives of Rabbi Rimmler (who is deceased) to learn the background of the correspondents.
    2) From Wikipedia: “In the Soviet Union (mostly in the 1920s), philosophical criticism was expressed on the basis of dialectic materialism. The theory of relativity was rejected as anti-materialistic and speculative, and a mechanistic worldview based on “common sense” was required as an alternative … (On the other hand, other philosophers considered relativity as being compatible with Marxism.)”


    @Gadolhadorah
    ,
    You seem to have misunderstood the quote, and you most definitely didn’t open up the chabad.org link that I attached.
    In short: A Brighton Beach doctor was told by his local shliach (Rabbi Rimmler) that the sun rotates around the earth. The doctor was shocked, and wrote to the shliach that the Rebbe definitely doesn’t agree with such views, for the reasons quoted above. This letter was forwarded to the Rebbe, and he explained the Torah view, and how it is compatible with science.
    Check out the link.


    @Reb
    Eliezer,
    The reason why scientists generally use the Copernicus model is because it is easier to use in diagrams and machinery.
    This has nothing to do with how it actually is.
    Why would Hashem make it like this? What a silly question! Why did Hashem make quantum physics so complicated? Why did Hashem make Gemara so complicated? Why can’t everything be simple and straightforward?

    And how do you know that this way is indeed the simplest? Maybe that’s only how it is for today’s scientists, and at another time the science will change (like much of science throughout history).
    To quote the PressConnects article that I mentioned above:
    “The universe doesn’t change its behavior whether we think the sun revolves around the earth or vice versa”.

    Boruch Hashem, we have the Torah that enlightens us on the truth of the universe, and there is no reason to argue, especially when it is fully compatible with modern science.

    מנחם שמו

    #2108462
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Correction: Rabbi Feivel Rimmler is not deceased

    #2108463
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Reb eliezer,

    You sound like someone that believes in flat earth

    #2108505

    RebE > Why would Hashem create something complicated when it can be made simple?

    this is a fascinating question. Actually two:
    1) would today’s world work if it would be a little simpler
    2) why complexity of the world in general

    On (1), the answer seems to be “no”. I read somewhere if a gravitational constant would be slightly different, the world would not exist… If you want Newtonian physics to be true, then there is no maximal speed of light and things will be very, very different… mabe big Bang (aka Creation) would not happen.

    On (2), we can of course only speculate. Maybe Hashem wants us to give reward for discovering the secrets of the world, both physical and spiritual, whether in science or Torah. One of the rishonim, I think, explains why early people in Chumash lives long lives – as there was no science literature, each of them needed to observe star movements for several centuries to develop understanding of how the stars work. This puts science as a primary reason for human life …

    #2108516
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Always, beautiful vort!

    Either way, “simple” is completely relative (no pun intended!):

    It’s easy to say, “Let Hashem create the world in the simple way” – but what is actually simple?

    In our case: If you open up the Tanach, Gemara, Rambam, etc. – it is much more simple to say that the sun goes around the earth.

    If you walk outside and look at the sky – it is much more simple to say that the sun goes around the earth.

    If you ask any scientist from before the times of Copernicus in the 1500s – they’ll tell you simply that the sun goes around the earth.

    If you ask Copernicus and the scientists until the 1900s – they’ll tell you simply that the earth goes around the sun.

    If you ask Einstein or any scientist since the 1900s – they’ll tell you that neither way is simple, and both models are very complicated due to the theory of relativity. However, when making a “Science made simple” video, or a simple astronomical diagram – it is more simple to portray the sun going around the earth.

    The only eternal truth that can tell us what lays beyond our simple knowledge is the Torah.

    מנחם שמו

    #2108515
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The gemora is complicated in order to be lefi tzareh agre, the reward is based on the effort as it has a greater value. If the earth would be flat than night and day would be the same both sides of the international date line.

    #2108520

    >> If you ask any scientist from before the times of Copernicus in the 1500s – they’ll tell you simply that the sun goes around the earth.

    this is strictly not true. Several Greeks – Aristarchus, prob most famous – considered Earth moving around the sun. This was soon post-Alexander times; septuaginta. Others, like Archimedes, quote this and disagree. Seems like biggest arguments for Earth being in the center for the Greeks was lack of star parallax: were the Earth moving, then there will be changes in how we see (stationary) stars. They did not appreciate how far stars are.

    As to Rambam, I don’t think he would hold by theories of his time now, he would probably have no problem accepting modern physics, so quoting him proves nothing.

    #2108526
    DovidBT
    Participant

    According to Albert Einstein, the sun revolves around the earth.

    Actually the sun and the earth revolve around their common center of mass.

    #2108537
    ujm
    Participant

    It’s a matter of description. You can use either frame of reference.

    #2108620
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AAQ and ujm, I asked a question and I did not get an answer. According to Newton and Ptolemy’s view as every heavenly body has a gravitational pull based on its size, so why does not the enormous gravitational pull of the sun dislodge the earth from being stationary in the center?

    #2108652
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Menachem Shmei,

    “Now, if there would be definite scientific proof that the earth revolves around the sun, we might have a problem. However, any modern day scientist agrees that there is no way to prove which is the correct way.”

    What would you consider to be “definite scientific proof”?

    #2108654
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, Einstein overturned the previous science. Describing the General Theory of Relativity isn’t easily accomplished in a forum such as this.

    #2108684
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “so why does not the enormous gravitational pull of the sun dislodge the earth from being stationary in the center?”

    Because the momentum and velocity pull it away. The sun keeps the earth in orbit.

    IF not fur the sun the earth would be moving through space in a straight line, the sun pulls the earth towards it. The result of the two forces is Earth moving around the sun.

    #2108687
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ubi, you missed the point. I have only a problem if the sun orbits around the earth being stationary in the center.

    #2108689
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Avram, I have very little comprehension of science, so I couldn’t exactly understand or come up with any specific proofs.

    What I meant was that if scientists claimed that the earth DEFINITELY rotates around the sun, then there might be room for some ספיקות in our belief in what the Torah says, and there might be a need for apologetics and taking the Torah out of its literal meaning (as Reb Eliezer did before).

    However, since according to my simple research (as I said before, google: “pressconnects earth revolves around sun”. ועוד), as well as according to the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s letters which I mentioned before (google: “Rebbe sun earth”) –
    scientists themselves acknowledge that it is impossible for them to prove one way or the other (according to Einstein’s theory of relativity) – I no longer have an issue with taking the Torah’s view literally.

    This is one of the many examples of things which in previous generations Torah seemed to contradict science, yet modern science supports the Torah beautifully.

    #2108711
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer,

    “According to Newton and Ptolemy’s view as every heavenly body has a gravitational pull based on its size, so why does not the enormous gravitational pull of the sun dislodge the earth from being stationary in the center?”

    If we choose our position on Earth to be a stationary frame of reference, which is a valid thing to do, then the sun is not stationary within that frame of reference. However, when constructing Newton’s Laws using Earth as a stationary frame of reference, we find some interesting forces that we must account for, such as a Coriolis Force that increases with latitude, centrifugal force, etc. These “fictitious” forces are why many people whine about Earth not being a true stationary frame of reference. A stationary Earth surface is useful for terrestrial-based calculations, such as weather models, flight paths, etc. But when launching a rocket to the Moon or Mars, or tracking asteriods and comets, it might be more useful to pick a different frame of reference.

    #2108712
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RE

    “I have only a problem if the sun orbits around the earth being stationary in the center.”

    Got it. Good question

    as an aside its worth noting that UJM contradicts himself a bit
    “According to Albert Einstein, the sun revolves around the earth”
    and
    “It’s a matter of description. You can use either frame of reference.”

    The first statement isn’t really true. OF course it is true that motion requires a frame of reference so it is no more true to say “the earth revolves around the sun” vs “the sun revolves aroung the earth”

    You cant have it both ways . IT doesn’t make sense to say “the sun revolves around the earth period” either no statement is objectively true so the staetment should read “According to Albert Einstein, either could be said to revolve around the other”

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