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  • #596772

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    How are those who are learning full time now going to marry off their daughters and support their sons-in-law in learning? Who’s going to pay their kids’ yeshiva tuition? Who’s going to pay to marry off their grandchildren? Who’s going to pay their great-grandkids’ yeshiva tuition and pay to marry them off and support them and when they start having kids…

    Or will one generation finally become disillusioned because there is no money for them to be able to sit and learn, and they feel they should be entitled to what their parents had*? What if the son also has to work so that the kids can be supported in their new lives and their parents are supported in their old age? Will this be the next off-the-derech crisis when the women can no longer shoulder the burden of financially supporting several generations?

    *I’m not talking about fancy strollers and 3K sheitels. I’m talking about food on the table and clothes for many kids for many years…

    #766251

    Pac-Man
    Member

    What’s new about this compared to 40 years ago? Somehow it works.

    #766252

    yid.period
    Member

    Assuming this system was in place 40 years ago (not my area of expertise), the job market has changed, as has the standard/cost of living. To get a decent paying job capable of supporting a family, one needs formal schooling these days, usually grad school as well. The system also needs to support more people now, because forty years ago (here’s where the high school math comes in), which may be two generations ago for some families, society had that (x amount of children times the number of families, possibly squared) many less children/people to employ and support.

    #766253

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    wanderingchana: There’s a reason I don’t have calculators!!!

    #766254

    Should we worry about what will be 20, 30 years down the line?

    Firstly, we don’t know what we should be worrying about. There are so many possible external variables that can affect the economic outcome. We cannot plan it, nor can we predict it. Even if we all worked 18 hours a day and stashed away money, is that a guarantee that there will be wealth for the next generation?

    Secondly, we don’t need to worry – we’re being looked after. Remember, Hashem’s in charge and He’s running things according to His plan, not ours.

    So we should be concentrating on behaving in a way that He wants us to behave. Yes, we should behave in a responsible manner, make responsible decisions and take into account our family’s future, but don’t worry about the next generation as a whole.

    #766255

    charliehall
    Participant

    “don’t worry about the next generation as a whole. “

    Such is the attitude that gives us our huge government budget deficit.

    #766256

    charliehall. I was assuming wanderingchana wasn’t the President. I would give him other advice.

    #766257

    um
    Member

    Finally someone with Sechiel!! Thank you!! Torah is the most amazing thing in the world!! but people have to understand that this system of support was not an accepted thing 40 years ago. the great tzaddikim worked to e.g. the Chofetz chaim. this system is a very nice system in the idylic world but we are not living there. R’ Aaron Kotler was not setting up this system for the masses this is for a select few ppl who are willing to be MESIR NEFESH for torah and be happy with less. but instead it is everyone wants torah and all their fancy things.

    THIS WILL NOT WORK LONG TERM!! especially not when parents are being forced to support against their capabilities!!

    These children are killing their parents with all their unreasonable demands and parents are scared to say they can’t afford to support their kids cause otherwise they will not be able to marry off thier girls!

    #766258

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    See the story on pages 202-203 of “In their Shadow” Vol.III (by Rabbi Shlomo Lorincz), for the Gerrer Rebbe’s (The Beis Yisroel) response to this very question.

    #766259

    ZachKessin
    Member

    Should we worry about what will be 20, 30 years down the line?

    THere is an old saying “Failing to plan is planning to fail” I think that covers it. Yes the Almighty is in charge, but that does not mean that bad choices don’t have consequences. If you make a huge mess out of your finances it will catch up with you sooner or later.

    #766260

    boredinoffice
    Participant

    I think it is cyclical. Most of the guys in yeshiva kollel that are in the mid 20′ and upwards were mostly raised in homes where parents worked (as was the custom) in the 1970’s through recently. Lots of them grew up with modern comforts and therefore when the time came to get married wanted it continued (nice car, support gifts etc..) This group will not be able to give the same to the chidlren that they are raising. Those kids will end up going to work to break out of the lifestyle of living on the basics. Their kids will go back to yeshiva. This is not blanket rule but rather the “norm” Lots of kids growing up want to be different from the way they grew up.

    its a never ending cycle……….

    enjoy the ride

    #766261

    zaidy78
    Participant

    It is not a question of 20 – 30 years. It is the current situation. How many people in Klei Kodesh WITH JOBS commit themselves to a number of years of support (because they want to marry off their kids) and at the same time are collecting money for the chasunah. If they can’t afford one wedding, how will they support a few daughters support at the same time?

    I believe the only solution is to make the young couple mary and survive ON THEIR OWN. Like has been done for past 5725 years. Suddenly, if the couple need to marry themselves off, diamond rings won’t be so popular, and Shul halls will be in demand and a chosson whose friend plays the harmonica will be a real catch.

    The problem is that that the one on the recieving end gives NOTHING and gives up nothing and expects EVERYTHING. This lifestyle leads to disaster, as ones dreams can never be fulfilled, unless he gives something.

    #766262

    oomis
    Participant

    Assuming this system was in place 40 years ago “

    Who says it was? I got married 34 years ago and was a child of the 60s, and it was not the norm for a typical frum chosson to take off a year or more to learn while his wife supported him, (though women had begun to enter the workforce in greater numbers). I am sure there were some, but not in the numbers that you see today.

    Frum guys learned part of the day and worked the rest of the day, and more women than not still stayed home to raise their families, until women’s lib caught up with the frum world and “stay at home moms” became a pejorative expression. We have seen the dangers of kids being raised by non-Jewish babysitters, however wonderful they might be. It has reached a point where women sometimes feel that unless they are working at a “meaningful” job, their efforts are worthless. When did it become worthless to prepare the next generation of klal Yisroel? When did Hashem tell men to stop earning “b’zayas apecha” and turn that responsibility over to the women? Most of all, who is going to pick up the slack for the next generation, which are ILL-PREPARED for real achrayus in life. There is no money tree in my back yard, and even if there is one in yours, what happens when there is a drought and it stops producing? None of us lives forever and the last grouop of earning parents will eventually be gone. What then?

    #766263

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Who’s going to pay their great-grandkids’ yeshiva tuition and pay to marry them off and support them and when they start having kids…

    I really don’t care who is going to pay my great-grandkids tuition.

    I think I am entitled to make decisions for myself, that are good for me and my generation, without worrying about the impact on my great-grandkids.

    #766264

    Just wanted to point out that just because a family’s not a “Kollel family” … learning … does NOT mean they have money. For some reason people are under the assumption that Kollel families = no means of income and working families are making it. In this economy and in this day and age (with expense of living being very high) it is very hard for most to make enough money, whether they’re learning or working. In most families, even with husband working, they’re not making enough. Everyone has to take one day at a times and try to make enough money for now. There’s no way to be “guaranteed” money in the future. Look at all the well-to-do businessmen who lost everything in this economy!

    #766265

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Who cares?

    Do the project dwellers plan on how to get out?

    So they live in the projects.

    #766267

    bpt
    Participant

    I think the key is a phase out system, where most people on support only get carried for x number of years.

    True, some stay on the payrole for 5+, and to a hefty tune, but many get a few $100 a week, and for a limited time only.

    The phase out doesn’t make headlines, but it does happen

    #766269

    yid.period
    Member

    popa,

    forgive me for saying this but if one cares about their children, then shouldn’t they care about their children’s children, and so on? Isn’t a big part of Yiddishkeit the continuation of our kind? While this in a a large part means providing for torah study, we should also bear in mind the changes to society’s normalities and their ramifications ie. if we are propagating an unsustainable system?

    Nobody is saying not to support limud torah, only addressing the problem with the attitude that one can expect all of these opportunities without a little effort and sacrifice.

    monsey review-

    But how many kollel members are supporting other kollel members? While going into the working world is no guarantee, it is at least an attempt at becoming “self sufficient”, and offers someone the possibility of paying their bills and providing for their families and communities (quotations because everything is from Hashem–but hishtadlus is expected)

    gavra at work-

    yes, we can generalize and say those living in the projects are content with their situation. However, nobody outside of the projects thinks very highly of people who live in the projects, and many have much angst against them, considering them parasites and “good for nothings”. IMHO that is not a role that is fitting of Am Yisroel as it would be a CHILLUL HASHEM and not an example of being Or Lagoyim, whether or not torah study is involved.

    Again, not saying to stop kollel or systems for learning torah, only to change the attitude and to emphasize the importance of planning for adequate yet sustainable alternatives.

    #766270

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    gavra at work-

    yes, we can generalize and say those living in the projects are content with their situation. However, nobody outside of the projects thinks very highly of people who live in the projects, and many have much angst against them, considering them parasites and “good for nothings”. IMHO that is not a role that is fitting of Am Yisroel as it would be a CHILLUL HASHEM and not an example of being Or Lagoyim, whether or not torah study is involved.

    In the opinion of The Gedolim, it has been decided on a mass basis that Yidden should take MOFES and sit (even to learn only part time and drey along) vs. going to work and college.

    IMHO just does not match up. Actually, IMHO, that sounds like something Dr. Lamm would say, and you know what The Gedolim feel about him.

    You are more than welcome to go to either the upstate or downstate NY communities (or the NJ community) and Shrai, for all the good that it will do.

    #766272

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa,

    forgive me for saying this but if one cares about their children, then shouldn’t they care about their children’s children, and so on? Isn’t a big part of Yiddishkeit the continuation of our kind? While this in a a large part means providing for torah study, we should also bear in mind the changes to society’s normalities and their ramifications ie. if we are propagating an unsustainable system?

    It would be different, if we were creating a system whereby we were cutting off options from future generations.

    That is happily not the case. Future generations will make the choices they need to make, and we will make the choices we need to make.

    Even if we were cutting off options from them, I still think I would disagree.

    We need to do what is appropriate today. G-d has enough money in his bank account to take care of our great grandchildren. I don’t think a part of this generations “hishtadlus” is to worry about 4 generations from now.

    #766273

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mods, I think it’s it’s time to change pba’s subtitle back, since he’s on target on this one.

    #766274

    yid.period
    Member

    How about one generation from now? I only used great great grandchildren because that was the example given by the poster… but the system is already on the brink of collapsing, what about the next generation.

    And avada Hashem has enough money, the question is whether or not He will spend it.

    #766275

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Thanks DY. (I was going to thank you for the support, but then I noticed the name of this thread, and I don’t do puns.)

    #766276

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    One point which I must add; someone who devotes his life to avodas Hashem is investing in the spiritual well-being of his future generations. This cannot be taken away from him; financial wealth can.

    #766278

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (I was going to thank you for the support, but then I noticed the name of this thread, and I don’t do puns.)

    Is that a paradox?

    (I know, you could claim not and say you only would have used that terminology had it not been a pun. But I wouldn’t have to believe you.)

    #766279

    gregaaron
    Member

    I think the name Poppa bar Abba intrisically lends itself to comments about support.

    #766280

    um
    Member

    What the point of this is for people to understand that no not every parent could/should support. yes as long as someone can make enough by working half day that is the most awesome thing to do. and just cause someone is “working” doesn’t mean he is a shigitz. he is being a responsible father. people are being shoved into molds that they are not! and no you don’t have to worry about your great great great grandkids but you do have to worry about your parent/grandparent. this system is just feeding into the “se kimpt tzo mich” generation. no your parents/in laws don’t owe you anything. they did more then enough for you till they married you off. if you are mature enough to get married and build a family it is up to you and your hubby to make fiancial decisions on your own.

    and thinking how you will need to marry off your kids is not thinking so much in advance. it will come around before you know it and at that point your parents may not be working any longer and you will have to fend for yourself and i wish you lots of hatzlocha at that point in your life!!

    #766281

    yid.period
    Member

    You’ll have to take my word for it (gavra) but my responses aren’t being allowed through and I’m not sure why

    #766282

    ZachKessin
    Member

    Secondly, we don’t need to worry – we’re being looked after. Remember, Hashem’s in charge and He’s running things according to His plan, not ours.

    By this logic I should tell my wife to not bother cooking dinner, because Hashem will supply it ready made. I think we all know it does not work like that. I would prefer it not involve poverty if possible

    #766283

    ZachKessin. Read my entire post.

    #766284

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZachKessin,

    The fact that we do hishtadlus does not mean that we live as if there is no Ribono Shel Olam, c”v. Expecting manna to descend from heaven (nowadays) to obviate the need to prepare dinner is a far cry from not feeling the need to sacrifice one’s learning to “ensure” enough money to support future generations.

    #766285

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    According to the logic of the OP, nobody would ever learn full-time, because everyone would need to work to support the coming generation’s learning. Since that next generation, for who’s sake the previous generation sacrificed its learning, would need to do the same, this generation might as well learn full time!

    #766286

    Ofcourse
    Member

    um, I agree!

    IMHO the support situation of recent years has caused more heartache to families than could ever be imagined, aggravating the Shidduch crisis as well. Poorer girls are devalued.

    When Kollel life originated in America there were no demands from boys’ parents of minimal monthly figures. The couples managed on their own with much less needs. Kollel life was much more lishma. The current demand of support from the girls parents, wich became increasingly popular about 15 years ago, is a modernized version of Kollel life, bringing about stress and ill-health to many.

    #766287

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ofcourse,

    That’s not what the OP was referring to. The OP was talking about the intrinsic unsustainability of the “system”. You are bemoaning the abuse of the system. Those are two separate discussions.

    #766288

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    IMHO the support situation of recent years has caused more heartache to families than could ever be imagined, aggravating the Shidduch crisis as well. Poorer girls are devalued.

    And The Gedolim have said it is a worthwhile cost.

    Who says that the shidduch crisis is not part of the plan, so that the price of boys goes up, and they can sit and learn longer?

    I can’t think of any other reason why Lakewood Yeshiva has not implemented a “solution”, or even attempted one, for the “crisis”

    as of yet.

    And yes, they could unilaterally implement something, just like they have the Freezer, and everyone else will have no choice but to follow.

    DY is incorrect though. That poorer girls are not being considered is the second level already. Many of these girls are second generation (or third) Lakewood/Klei Kodesh.

    #766289

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And yes, they could unilaterally implement something, just like they have the Freezer, and everyone else will have no choice but to follow.

    The freezer, from a mathematical perspective, actually exacerbates the problem. What could BMG possibly implement (other than unplugging the freezer) to alleviate the problem? They’re not in a position to either force boys to marry earlier or girls to marry later.

    What statement of mine indicates that I disagree with your assertion that poorer girls, from kollel families, are less likely to get married? While we’re at it, do you have any evidence of this? (Yes, I know those two points seem contradictory, but I haven’t yet really consider it from that perspective.)

    #766290

    Ofcourse
    Member

    DY, yes and no. Sustainable, only as long as the Klal is willing to tolerate and SURVIVE the resulting stress and ill-health, decrease of Shalom Bayis and relationship with parents, etc.

    #766291

    agittayid
    Participant

    “..The current demand of support from the girls parents, wich became increasingly popular about 15 years ago, is a modernized version of Kollel life, bringing about stress and ill-health to many……”

    As far as I’m concerned, the welfare of the children is being mortgaged to satisfy the vanity of their parents.

    Let me amend that; the welfare of the children and their grandparents is being mortgaged to satisfy the vanity of the “se kimpt tzo mich generation.”

    #766292

    um
    Member

    gavra

    when you say *the gedolim* can you please specify exactly which Gedol???

    thanks.

    #766293

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I’m talking about food on the table and clothes for many kids for many years…

    it’s called government assistance

    #766294

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Um: Have you see a Gadol that disagrees? Or one that pushes for boys to go work & support their families? Rav Miller (who actually di push for working men) has lost out in the world of ideas.

    DY: Why not? As per an idea, how aboput implement the Freezer for boys for a year (or two), unless they go out with girls older than they are.

    As per the assertion, that was made by “ofcourse”.

    #766295

    yid.period
    Member

    gavra

    Ive heard that a system like that already exists in lakewood, where someone can date out of bein hazmanim if the girl is older than x (either 20 or 22)

    But that doesn’t fix the support issue

    #766296

    um
    Member

    gavra: yes unmarried boys or boys that can manage ON THEIR KOLLEL STIPENT should stay in learning but relying on your parents health so you can take a free ride no that is not fair and is NOT CORRECT!!

    #766297

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY: Why not? As per an idea, how aboput implement the Freezer for boys for a year (or two), unless they go out with girls older than they are.

    A good idea in theory, but the bochurim wouldn’t stand for being limited for such a long period of time.

    As per the assertion, that was made by “ofcourse”.

    What did you call me incorrect about? (b’nichusa)

    #766298

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: They seem to be OK with the freezer concept, this is just an extension of it. To help so many girls, it would be worth a try (or other ideas, like opening the freezer for older girls), unless the result wanted is what is currently in place.

    In addition, there is no “second option” for most learners returning from EY who are looking for a shidduch. Until that option is created (and who exactly will be the Rosh Yeshiva to break Lakewood?) the boys will not go anywhere.

    Last on that point, the idea will/could open the freezer for going out with older girls. Granted it may be “Tagrei Lud”, but IMHO many boys will take that over the current situation.

    I believe you are incorrect (and apologize if the language offends you) regarding the shidduch crisis having nothing to do with the OP’s original point. The shidduch crisis is strengthened by the support issue. The first sentence of the OP:

    How are those who are learning full time now going to marry off their daughters and support their sons-in-law in learning?

    The simple answer is, marry boys who aren’t learning. However, that doesn’t seem to be an option at first, and when it does come around, the girls are already “older” (This is not to say girls looking for workers do not have similar issues).

    #766299

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    GAW,

    There was nothing offensive about the way you disagreed with me, I’m just trying to figure out what it is we’re disagreeing on. When I wrote “b’nichusa”, I was describing my tone, not giving mussar.

    I wasn’t saying that the shidduch crises has nothing to do with the OP (although it really doesn’t), I was saying that the spoiled young adults crises is unrelated.

    The shidduch crises is mostly unrelated, because the boys are, for the most part getting married, and almost [:)] every time a boy gets married, a girl does as well.

    In theory, financial considerations might shift the number of “leftover” girls more heavily to the kollel families, but the number of unmarried girls stays essentially the same. I also don’t know if that shift is factual or theoretical.

    As far as the freezer idea, sure there are many boys who would learn in BMG no matter what, but many would violate the freezer rules if they were too restrictive, and some boys would go elsewhere (and rumor has it that BMG wants high enrollment). I’m curious what AZ has to say about this idea.

    What’s the difference between keeping the freezer for younger girls 9your fist idea) and opening it for older ones (your second idea)?

    #766300

    twisted
    Participant

    The great missed point is that we are a bereft generation, particularly in the US, and no posek of today is going to undo the prescription of the post war Gedolim. Of course, we may say chacham adif minavi, and that there is no need to adapt to the current circumstance, but this is not borne out by the ‘suffering schver’ phenomenon. Without serious positive hachgocho, this is definitely not sustainable, and simple arithmetic is not on our side. For gloomy outlooks, using past historical templates, the US and its economy will crash hard, and Torah will be sustained by the few and the best, who will live on “some” potatoes, as was the case in Europe before the last churban.

    #766301

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: Just timing. The idea is to give the “older” girls a look before one can date the younger ones.

    As far as the # of unmarrieds, the idea is to increase it below a certain age (lets say 24, for arguments sake) and decrease it above that age. That way girls who are above the age have more hope of getting married, and are not “Avar U’Batel Min Haolam”.

    #766302

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’m curious as per what you mean by “spoiled young adults crises”?

    #766303

    adorable
    Participant

    there is a young girl shidduchim-age- that i know who told her father that she does not think he should go work so that she can marry a boy whos learning. she told him to stay in kollel and they (her and her husband) will work it out

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