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One of the largest landlords in New York City is Trinity Church, an Episcopal church located in downtown Manhattan by Wall Street. They own numerous commercial buildings around the city — including the one where I work and where I am sitting at this very moment.
The company I work for, of course, pays rent to Trinity for the use of the building. I do my part to support the company by adding economic value through my labor (as every employee should). Of course, this leads to the fact that I, somewhat indirectly, am supporting Trinity Church.
One could argue that my position within the company is not indispensable. If I got hit by a bus tomorrow, the business wouldn’t close. But the same could be said for each and every person in my office. In the aggregate, we all support the company which enables them to pay rent to Trinity. I, as a person who provides economic value to my company, has a small portion in that aggregate.
That being the case, I’m wondering how much suffering I’m going to be due in the afterlife for the years that I’ve put in here, supporting (to a small extent — but still supporting) Avoda Zara.
The Wolf
how much suffering I’m going to be due in the afterlife
On a scale of 1 to 10, I couldn’t rate it.
You can make the same argument for pretty much anyone who isnt a Jew. If they are Christian and you work for them and they give money to a Church in essence your money is in part going to that Church.
We live in Golus.
sac thats a real stretch.
Is a church a”z?
What is the issur of supporting avodah zara? We are afraid that your business will cause them to be thankful to their god. An issur of lifney iver.
Subject to all of the gedarim of lifney iver.
however, I believe we rely on tosfos in chullin & places in avodah zara that today people are not really dedicated to their various gods.
and goyim are not forbidden from shituf l’halacha (machlokes rambam tosfos, see yechaveh daas chelek 6/60) ( god+man) and trinity would got into that catergory.
so I think you’re good.
top of head, subject to fabrication 🙂
and look both ways before you cross the street
Moq: The Noda B’Yehuda says shituf is pure Avoda Zora for goyim.
arc
“sac thats a real stretch”
Not any more than the original OP. Wolf isnt working for Trinity he is working for a company that rents space from Trinity, his productivity has nothing to do with the support of the Church.
The lease with the landlord for office space is not contingent on how much revenue is generated by the tennant (As opposed to a lease in a mall). Even if they were to move out during the term of the lease, the tennant would still be obligated to the landlord for the lease payments.
The economic benefit you add to your employer is thus unrelated to their obligation to pay the landlord.
The time spent posting on the internet is not hurting the landlord either, so there would not be any l’shem shomayim in spending lots of time doing that to decrease the benefit to Trinity
A brief wikipedia search reveals that this church believes the all three shviggers are really one big shvigger. Is that better or worse? the shver, the shvigger, and the holy roast , are really one big chulent.
Is that real God + shvigger? Doesn’t sound like it. And I don’t think anyone could give us a clear answer. Or that real God, but we call him a shvigger occasionally? Or is that, the shvigger is really god?
As far the Nodah BYehudah, it’s true, but I believe that most poskim are lenient. Top of the head, R’ Ovadia comes out this way from four million different places. As far as the other heter – do we apply that to a religious institution itself? Maybe they are really dedicated? I mean, does the Pope believe in the shvigger, with all of his kiskhes?
You working for a company though, in Lifney Iver, is not trey avrey d’nahar, hard to see you being over on lifney iver, even if it avodah zara. You are easily replaceable as far as there rent, certainly in such a high demand neighborhood. Certainly as far as your personal economic contribution.
Wolf
“Sure it does. I produce part of the economic value that I know (for certain) goes directly to Trinity”
Are you their land developer?
No Wolf. They are obligated to pay their rent even if you do not do a thing. Their lease is not tied to performance.
Also, I doubt the Church is really making much off the rent. More likely, its going for building upkeep.
Wolf
“No. But I produce part of the revenues that go towards the rent”
How do you know?
SJS
Noooo, Trinity makes a lot off rent, they have quite the RE empire in the city. Besides, they probably get a write off for being part of a “Religious Institution”
come on SJS landlords make money.
Your company wouldn’t go bankrupt without you. I am sure they would even turn a profit. Therefore, you are not contributing to the rent really.
Arc, yes landlords make money, but not as much as people think. There are taxes, mortgages, building upkeep, code requirements etc.
Wolf can safely assume that any part of his company profit, if it even affects his companies rent (which it doesn’t really) can be going to the upkeep part.
Wolf
You could as easily be paying for the toilet paper as you are paying the rent.
Most leases have a personal obligor on them or some other form of secuity put up, there are many instances of sublets just for this reason.
Even if your place of employment went of business the landlord would be able to collect.
And, do you really believe that your work puts your company over the top? Or even comes close to doing so?
I am sure Trinity is making quite a bit of income, no different than any other landlord in the city. As far as it being tax exempt income, it depends if there is financing on the property and certain other factors. Even tax exempt organizations are subject to income tax at the regular corporate rates for unrelated income. You may be able to google and see if they file a 990T.
Money is not an object, it doesn’t matter which money they use, it doesn’t have anything to do with you.
If I were a Posek, I would bring a rayah from YD 139:8&13 as well as 149:4.
Ayin Shom, but I am not a Posek.
Wolf-
As usual, for any halachic questions one should consult a rav.
That being said, I will express my opinion on the matter, in the context of an intellectual discussion.
I do not wish to enter right now into the age-old debate of whether or not Christianity is Avodah Zara and for whom, but either way I think it is ok in your case, being that first of all, even if it was actually you paying rent it isn’t definite or even probable that the money you give is being used directly for Avoda Zara, as most of it probably goes to the maintenance of the church property, other properties it owns, and to various charities this institution supports. See SA YD 149:4-5 and the sugya in Avoda Zara. Moreover, there is a tzad to say that there is no such thing as lifnei iver on the lav of lifnei iver. It’s one way to understand a gemara in Avoda Zara that says ????? ????? ?? ???????. Therefore since your company is at most being over on lifnei iver by supporting this institution, you would only be doing ???? ?????. Moreover, I agree with what everyone has been saying, that the company is paying regardless of your involvement, and thus there is certainly no lifnei iver d’oraisa on your part. However this alone I think is a weak arguement, because as Tosafos says in Shabbos 3a, even when it isn’t ??? ???? ????? there is still an issur d’rabbanan. Though if you’re ????? in that Tosafos I think one could be mechaleik and say your case is not even assur mi’d’rabanan. At any rate, IMHO you have nothing to worry about and it is no problem.
BTW with regard to my first point I forgot to mention the gemara is mefurash that lifnei iver only applies by a vaday, or at least a strong umdena.
yitayningwut – what first point?
I’m guessing that something happened and my second post went up first and that’s all you saw, but just in case, I was referring to –
“most of it probably goes to the maintenance of the church property…”
Ben Torah
Clearly his other name is Moq
Haha Sac, I’m not Moq, though I respect his knowledge very much and am honored to be confused with him.
Moq has a completely different style.
for the sake of parnoooooooooseh anything is mutar, dont worry about it 😛
Helpful
Not if he was trying to be two different people…
yitay, I was just preparing an answer and you beat me to it. Exactly. In addition, there are 3 main ways of avodo zoro. 1. bowing or kneeling – this is always ossur, no matter which AZ it is. This includes Xianity, although that may be mi’derabonon.
2. Sacrificing – bringing a korbon, killing the animal le’sheim the AZ, also always ossur. Even though Xtianity has no animal sacrifice, this still applies although again mi’derabonon.
3. Derech avodoh, the normal way of serving the AZ – this is only ossur by doing the service particularly required for that AZ. For Xtianity this will depend on the psak if its a real AZ or only shituf. Thus going for Communion during the Eucharistic Mass may be AZ. Paying rent isn’t any part of any of these AZ ways. And here we go back to what Yitay said about lifnei ivur of lifnei ivur that isn’t ossur. And the company itself paying rent isn’t ossur either. This is because the Church itself, in other words the actual Xtianity concept, doesn’t own the buildings. An American corporation, albeit non-profit, owns it all, including the actual church building. That corporation is “owned” by the board of trustees, some lay people and some clergy. So Wolf, go back to work.
Wolf, if I understood you correctly, you are employed by someone who rents from the church. YOU are not supporting the church. Would you feel that way if you were a doctor in St. Johns Episcopal Hospital?
prof-
Thank you. Though I really do not want to get involved in the dicussion of Christianity per se even just in regard to what you’ve mentioned, I just wish to point out that there is another issue of giving money for ???? ?”?, besides for sacrificing and worshiping.
Gotta go to second seder.
Ben Torah??- Huh? Since when do we pasken like the Noda B’yehudah over the Rema? If you want to be machmir fine, but don’t make it like it’s the halacha! So Wolf, if you want to be machmir for yourself on xianity -fine; but you have no right to be machmir on the cheshbon of your family!
“The Noda B’Yehuda says shituf is pure Avoda Zora for goyim. “
The Noda B’Yehuda is entitled to his opinion, but he is paskening against Rashi, Tosafot, HaMeiri, and the Rema.
In any case, indirect support of A”Z is extensively discussed in the talmud tractate of that name that we just finished in the Daf Yomi. I’m not a posek (!) but there is certainly room for a posek to find ways to be meikel in the situation described, particularly based on the comments of the rishonim I just mentioned. CYLOR.
The Rambam (Machalos Asuros 11) writes that the Christians are plain avoda zora worshippers.
The Noda B’Yehuda writes (YD 148) that it is a common mistake to think that Goyim are not commanded against schituf. The reality is they are. The error, he says, comes from a Rama that says you are allowed to cause a non-Jew to swear to his god, since he is not swearing to an idol but just adding his idol to Hashem, meaning schituf.
But the NB”Y points out that all this means is that the Goy does NOT declare the idol to be a deity in the oath, but the belief itself that a deity shares power with G-d is really idolatry. Only the oath is permitted, since it does not express his real belief.
Other poskim concur with the Noda Beyehuda.
And although there are some poskim who do hold that Goyim are not commanded against schituf, but it doesn’t make a difference anyway, because that only means that the Goyim are not sinning for being idol worshipers, which is between them and Hashem, but as far as we are concerned, we are commanded against schituf, and that makes them idol worshippers to us (Responsa Binyan Tzion I:63).
Christianity is Avoda Zora because they worship a god who impregnates women, and other characteristics such as a trinity that constitutes idolatry as opposed to worshiping the real G-d.
To better understand the issue you may want to distinguish between Christianity as a religion and medieval Gentiles who professed Christianity.
Christianity as a religion was just as much Avoda Zara to the Baalei Tosafos as it was to the Rambam. A simple proof of this is found in Avoda Zara 14b, d”h hatzav, where it is stated that it is forbidden to sell wax to the Goyim (for fear they will make votive candles). The issur is based on the verse “Lifnei Iver lo titen mikhshol” which is understood to mean that a Jew is not permitted to cause another (Jew or Gentile) to sin. We see from this that lighting a votive candle is a sin , i.e. avoda zara, even for a Gentile.
That the Baalei Tosafos allowed business with Goyim on religious
holidays, despite the Mishna to the contrary (2a, d”h asur), does not contradict the above. Rather, they held that Goyim do not take their own (idolatrous) religion seriously enough to offer thanksgiving for the profit they make from such commerce. That is, they made a distinction between the religion as such and its devotees. Because of this many rishonim (Rashi, Rabbenu Tam, etc.) ruled that Gentile wine is not forbidden in benefit (not assur behana’ah)– Goyim today are mostly not priests and do not carry out the mass.
The “proof” that the Baalei Tosafos did not hold that Christianity is avoda zara comes from the statement that Goyim are not commanded to avoid “shituf.” However the commentators from the world of Torah (i.e. Chazon Ish, etc.) [and even from the academic world (like David Berger, etc.)] have proved that this discussion (in Sanhedrin) is relevant only to oath taking (i.e. swearing to Hashem but having somebody else in mind as well), which is the usual meaning of “shituf shem shamayim im davar aher” in the Talmud. Christian worship as carried out in the medieval Catholic Church was regarded as avoda zora, period, for Jew and Gentile alike.
Christianity is pure avodah zarah! First of all their trinity, second of all their icons and statues of saints theyliterally bow down to! About this particular shayla if it’s mutar to do business I don’t know. But it seems to me that you’re not doing busness with them, you’re just employed by a company that does business. or am i wrong?
Ben Torah -Thank you for the shiur. But, all the Nosay Kaylim on S’A seem to learn in the Rema that shituf is mutter. As a matter of fact -they learn this pshat in many Remas. So they seem to hold that the Rema held this way in many places, not just by swearing. (Not like the N. B’yehudah.) I’m not going to quote all the places because you SEEM to be a learned guy and I’m sure you know them or can easily find them. BTW, when they say shituf -they’re talking about Christianity! As far as “Responsa Binyan Tzion I:63”, I don’t know what your point is, if you have one, but if you want to discuss it, please quote the whole thing preferably in Hebrew and I’ll be happy to.
Support for BT (11:4):
? [?] ?? ????, ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????–???? ???? ??????, ????? ?????; ???????? ???? ???, ???? ??????? ???? ???. ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???, ???? ??? ??????????–???? ???? ??????, ????? ?????; ??? ???? ?? ???????. ??? ????????–????? ????? ??? ??, ???? ???? ???? ?????.
First of all their trinity,
Guess you don’t sing Askinu Sudasa by Shalus Shudis (Seudat Shelishit)?
second of all their icons and statues of saints they literally bow down to!
But they do not ascribe divinity to it/them. That is Halacha Pesuka.
The reason why it would be Avoda Zara is because they worship a human.
Gavra you got it all wrong. It is avodah zarah to daven to something even if you believe its just and intermediary. Like davening to the sun to take up your tefillos to Hashem! And what shaychus askinu seudasa? Don’t tell me you’re one of those ppl who hold the ZOhar is a christian text! What shtusim! Don’t get involved in sisrei Torah! The zohar also seems to say Hashem has an image chas veshalom but it is not meant to be interpreted by us commoners literally!
Tam:
When you do the research needed in comparative religion (which for you would probably be Assur), get back to me.
??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??????
(Nedarim 66b)
And I did not say anything that you claim I did, but for others who may be reading this, if anything, they stole the concept from us. And it (the concept) does not contradict Yichud Hashaim.
Gav, for your info I do know A LOT about other religions, and no christianity did not steal the concept of the trinity from us. The zohar was not made public until the 13th century, and christianity was present at least in the first century, maybe even earlier (of course they deny that). The zohar is not talking about a father son and ghost, it talks about the Atika Kadisha, Chakal Tapuchin,and Z’eir Anpin. If you go to wikipedia.org on the zohar, i shlugged up the whole christian-zohar entry there. I don’t want be mayrich here, but if you go to wikipedia (if not, i’ll write it here if asked) go to zohar and zohar in christian mythology, see the junk they wrote and see my shlugg up which they never erased!
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