Ta’aruvos in YWN Coffee Room?

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  • #590600

    theShtayger
    Member

    Is there a place to be extra cautious, for example, not to respond directly to a comment made by a female in order to be careful with “Al Tarbeh Sicha im Isha”?

    #667654

    Gezuntheit
    Member

    Maybe you could make a thread for MEN ONLY! or just don’t write in the CR; b/c you will probably answer directly to a woman!

    #667655

    Jax
    Member

    Joseph: go post the link to the other thread! this is an honor that i’m leaving for you!

    #667656

    Joseph
    Participant
    #667657

    Jax
    Member

    Joseph: i knew i could count on you!

    #667658

    israelbochur
    Member

    ahh yes, b/c the men only thread will only atract male respondents

    in any case, i think we all (me too) need to be more worried about bitul zman

    tarbeh sicha? really?? just relax everyone

    #667659

    tzippi
    Member

    Personally, when I remember, I usually respond directly to someone by saying, To Ploni, or Re Ploni. Though if it’s someone I suspect I’m a bit older than, I’ve done it directly.

    #667660

    cherrybim
    Participant

    And I’m b’emes the Pope.

    #667661

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    And I am really a gorilla. I faked being a bear all this time so as to avoid fueling any debates regarding evolution especially as pertaining to Al Sharpton.

    #667662

    YW Moderator-72
    Participant

    If we make a Men Only thread, does that mean that the men will only be allowed to post to that thread and women will only be allowed to post to the ladies only thread?

    If there are going to be gender neutral threads, what is the point of the separate threads.

    here is the Poll question of the day:

    1) Do we designate all new threads as Male or Female use only and close all previous threads?

    2) Do we designate all new threads as Male or Female use only and label all previous threads appropriately?

    3) Do we designate all new threads as Male or Female use and allow all previous threads to remain gender neutral?

    4) Do we scrap the whole labeling of threads with the exception of The Women’s Tznius Support Group?

    #667663

    NY Mom
    Member

    Since women’s suffrage and the 19th Amendment was passed in 1920, I assume I can vote on this one. I hereby vote for #4.

    OK, so far we have 1/2 a vote for option “4” — just kidding, we count all votes equally, but I couldn’t resist!

    #667664

    theShtayger
    Member

    But where do we draw the line? How do we differentiate between mix-gender discussion in an online chat room (which I’m assuming is assur right everyone?) and some of the less- serious threads in the coffee room?

    True there is a moderator in YWN. Is that enough to halachakly say al tarbeh sicha does not apply here?

    If you are assuming it is assur. why are you here?

    #667665

    artchill
    Participant

    Moderator 72:

    Creating gender specific pages will be the worst thing possible for a frum site. This will cause people with criminal minds to portray themselves as the opposite danger and cause much worse trouble.

    As hard as it is to moderate a site where everyone at least tries to act like a yeshiva person, it will be infinitely harder once you open the door for double identities. Baruch Hashem you probably have no experience with criminal minds. Try keeping it that way, and keep an open, neutral forum for discussion.

    so… is that a vote for option “4” or a request for option “5” with no gender specifc sites at all and a scrapping of the Tznius support group?

    #667666

    theShtayger
    Member

    I’m not assuming its assur. I’m putting up a hypothetical question to the greater YWN public.

    I must have been confused by the following statement of yours (which I’m assuming is assur right everyone?) go figure…

    #667667

    NY Mom
    Member

    theShtayger: How do we differentiate between mix-gender discussion in an online chat room (which I’m assuming is assur right everyone?) and some of the less- serious threads in the coffee room?

    Are you serious? Why are you assuming this is assur? Ask your own shailah from your LOR.

    #667668

    squeak
    Participant

    Most sock puppets are gender neutral. Will there also be a gender neutral thread/forum?

    that is option 4. the other options are regarding uniform knee sock puppets discussing current events in the athletic sock puppet thread

    #667669

    artchill
    Participant

    Moderator 72:

    Door #4

    #667670

    theShtayger
    Member

    Oh so there’s no issue with chat rooms? I didnt realize. I thought that would be more of a controversial issue. Nevermind. My logic would seem to fall apart on that comment then.

    I stand corrected.

    #667671

    NY Mom
    Member

    Mod 72: LOL, you are mamesh on a roll today!

    #667672

    Joseph
    Participant

    theShtayger brought up a valuable discussion. The sarcasm towards him was unwarranted.

    If theShtayger feels that the YW Coffee Room is an inappropriate site because the anonymous posting of opinions (sometimes labeled as facts) are coming from both men and women, then I cordially invite him and anyone else who feels that way (yes, even you Joseph, if you so feel that way) to stop reading and posting in the CR. There you go, no sarcasm – just a simple statement.

    #667673

    NY Mom
    Member

    theShtayger: Oh so there’s no issue with chat rooms? I didnt realize.

    Are chat rooms moderated like the CR? Even if they are, they are not moderated by frum people, and those moderators don’t care if people want to meet or communicate outside the chat room. Isn’t that a major part of the danger of chat rooms? Creating a relationship with someone and then taking it to the next level?

    The moderators are the major factor here, IMHO.

    You can also choose not to respond to female posters such as myself if you want to be makpid in “Al tarbeh”.

    #667674

    Nymom,

    I beg to differ. Mods are human like the rest of us, and not necessarily any stronger in this area that you or I. They are all subject to the same human frailties that we all suffer in this area.

    So while suggesting to not read the CR may be very good to many, how else does one influence his brothers who may have not realized his faults on this subject??

    #667675

    NY Mom
    Member

    Mezonos Maven: I am not sure what you are getting at. Please clarify.

    Maybe you misunderstood my meaning. What I meant to say was: The moderators prevent inappropriate posts regarding male-female interaction and inappropriate communication outside the CR. That is the difference between the YW CR and other chat rooms. This, I believe, mitigates the “issue with chat rooms” to which theShtayger is referring.

    #667676

    Nymom,

    I don’t mean to infer anything other than a general comment of who moderates the mods??

    #667677

    YW Moderator-72
    Participant

    MM, I can’t speak for the other mods, but I moderate “72”

    #667678

    YWMod72: C’V I didn’t mean to infer otherwise. Please be moichel if i came across that anyone doesn’t.

    But we must all ask ourselves this question, no? We dont allow everyone here to moderate themselves… only some have that privilege.

    And can we judge ourselves honestly?? Or do our taivos cloud our judgement sometimes?

    I wasn’t offended. I was making a joke. maybe we need a civilian review complaint board…

    #667679

    NY Mom
    Member

    Mezonos Maven: That is a question which should be directed to the mods themselves.

    But I would say that the mods do a great job, and often, I can not even tell if a mod is male or female, unless they say something which indicates it one way or the other. Also, I have never read anything inappropriate from a mod with regards to male-female interactions.

    Over and above that, I can’t really comment further.

    #667680

    mepal
    Member

    The fact that this topic keeps coming up again, perhaps proves something?

    #667681

    All I am suggesting is that perhaps, just perhaps, we need to do some introspection (did i spell that right?) on this issue rather than assume all is well.

    I hate to pick on the mods, but isn’t there a form of mod worship around here?? Everyone probably wants to be on the mods good side…

    wait… what’s wrong with admiration for the crack moderation team?

    #667682

    NY Mom
    Member

    Mezonos Maven: I really don’t know what you are getting at, and unless you can be more specific about what you feel is inappropriate or to which possible pitfall you are referring, I can’t comment further.

    BTW, you can always check spelling on dictionary.com.

    #667683

    mepal
    Member

    MM, I wouldn’t think that’s the problem.

    #667684

    How could you really know whether someone is a guy or a girl? I mean, even if our name has a gender-oriented name (mom, rebbe, seminary, yeshiva, BY, chosidishe guy, woman, male, shloimy, rivky, dad, girl, boy…just examples, dont know if all of these are really in names or not…) we could be faking it the whole time. Isnt that the problem with website-communication anyways? I mean, isnt that what we have been told (and our kids as well) that we should never trust anyone on the web to be who they say they are? How many unfortunate cases are there of people pretending to be a friend, about the same age as a kid, tries to meet up with them and ends up being a kidnapper or worse?

    How would you stop someone from posting on a forum that is “male only”? Would you really be able to sincerely say that so and so is a guy or a girl? For all you know I can be a teenage guy, a mother of 10 kids, a grandmother with 20 grandchildren, a father of 4, a 10 year old, an 80 year old, sefardi or chasidish or ashkenazi, or NOT EVEN JEWISH!! Yes, someone can spout the yeshivish or terminology but how do you know?

    I mean how do you really know?

    I am just trying to scare you that you dont even know who anyone on here is!

    #667685

    Nymom, I’m talking about the chummy attitude between posters that sometimes happens here. Yes, stuff that does make it to the big board. (Dictionary.com is great. I also use spellcheck.net.)

    mepal, You don’t see ppl fawning all over the mods all the time? fawning is fine, worship is too much… sending coffee and sugar-free donuts is the best. YW Moderator-72

    havesomeseichel, and that is a problem just as well!

    #667686

    Jothar
    Member

    What’s wrong with Taaruvos in YWN Coffee Room? Some yeshivish discussion of nosein taam lefgam, a thread of nat bar nat deheteira, kavush kemevushal, maybe even a thread discussing the various machloksin between the Shach and the Ketzos on Sfeik Sfeika…

    Oh. you mean THAT kind of Taaruvos. Never mind.

    #667687

    NY Mom
    Member

    Mezonos Maven: I have only been a member for a relatively short time, but I want to say, for the record, that I have never read anything inappropriate in regards to tznius from a mod. And again, for the most part, I cannot tell who is female and who is male amongst the mods. They are many times humorous, sometimes sarcastic, but professional, and I think that you are reading into things.

    #667688

    truthsharer
    Member

    NY Mom, there has been flirting going on, people don’t realize it when they post. That is what happens when you have men and women posting in a forum.

    #667689

    NY Mom
    Member

    truthsharer: NY Mom, there has been flirting going on, people don’t realize it when they post

    I am a little unclear about what you are saying. What don’t they realize? They don’t realize that they are flirting? Maybe you’re just confusing joking with flirting.

    The definition of flirting in this context according to dictionary.com:

    I have read nothing which would apply to this definition.

    The definition of joking:

    “joke – to speak or act in a playful or merry way -OR- to say something in fun or teasing rather than in earnest; be facetious”

    You’re misinterpreting comments/posts. Joking is not flirting.

    #667690

    truthsharer
    Member

    Is there a halachic distinction between joking with members of the opposite gender and flirting? Someone as makpid as you are with tznius should know that.

    #667691

    truthsharer: None I am aware of.

    truthsharer is correct in both of his last 2 comments.

    #667692

    NY Mom
    Member

    So what are you saying? People are not allowed to make a joke to a member of the opposite gender? It is not tznius to make a joke? To make someone else smile?

    Well, now I know you are wrong! Because I have interacted with different respected Rabbonim and they actually said something in jest to me! Yes, they said something jokingly to me! And I never, in my wildest imagination thought that they were flirting with me! Imagine that! One Rav is actually almost 80 years old and he said something funny and I laughed.

    I guess it is all in the way you interpret the situation.

    #667693

    truthsharer
    Member

    I’m not yeshivish, but I could play one on TV, and there are times when after I read a post I have to wonder if the posters realize what is going on. And yes, I would call it flirting because in many cases it is NOT done with members of the same gender.

    #667694

    NYMom: And to add to what truthsharer wrote, do you chat with that Rav as frequently, or joke as much, as some folks do over here?

    #667695

    NY Mom
    Member

    Well, then maybe I am just more naive then you are.

    Or maybe you are just more skeptical than I am.

    Just realize that there is more than one way to interpret something and your interpretation may not be The Truth.

    #667696

    NYMom: I also second truthsharer’s observation that you seem to be seeking a loophole that clearly your stated level of tznius would dictate against.

    #667697

    NY Mom
    Member

    Certain expressions have definite connotations. But other things you can read connotations into it, which the writer may not actually have had in mind.

    #667698

    squeak
    Participant

    truthsharer

    Member

    I’m not yeshivish, but I could play one on TV,

    I’m not sure what TV is (and the wikipedia definition sounds too technical for me), but have you considered that perhaps other people here share your acting abilities, and play one on a blog?

    #667699

    NY Mom
    Member

    Mezonos Maven: Are you saying that some people in the CR have an inappropriate relationship?

    I’m going to have to ask my Rav about this one.

    #667700

    Bemused
    Participant

    I don’t know what The Truth is, but I do know that I’m with truthsharer on this one, and it has been a little startling for me for a long time.

    It’s a bit of a stretch to compare a Rav saying something jokingly to a forum full of mixed ages joking with each other. Try a more comparable situation: imagine a scenario in which your husband brought home a few friends/chavrusas one evening. Imagine you coming in to the kitchen and chatting away with them, pulling up a chair and enjoying the camaraderie, and throwing in some good well-timed jokes and making everyone laugh. From the way you described your husband, I think he would turn colors. Imagine a couple of your friends happened to come in at that time, and you all sat around the table enjoying a good shmooze. That may be fine in some circles, and it is not my place to judge or to determine if something is tznius or not. But from the way you describe yourself and your husband, it seems quite inconsistent.

    A lot of people make this mistake, and think the internet gives carte blanche for all things considered highly inappropriate for their own everyday behavior, so long at it is “anonymous”. As long as someone has identified themselves by gender (sorry haifagirl :)) either through screen name or through blog content, the scenario is not far from the one I painted in your kitchen. There are real live people behind each screen name.

    Again, I am not judging one’s personal tznius standards, do not give mussar on this topic- I’ve got loads to do on my own before I can turn around and offer criticism to the next person. It still remains that truthsharer assessment seems to me to be accurate, and those who don’t flirt/trade jokes (really, dictionaries don’t do justice to the everyday connotations of some words/actions) in person should realize that it’s much the same on the internet. I’m sure I can look back and find instances of where I’ve done this myself, I’m the last person to judge.

    #667701

    Bemused makes good points.

    One point I would like to add, while I think NY Mom’s position taken on this thread is mistaken, I do not think NY Mom has engaged in any of the referenced activity here. I do think those folks themselves, as Bemused pointed out, fail to recognize what they are doing at the very time it is happening.

    And who even knows whats going on outside this service, as a result of the contacts made. Some (very) limited contact I’ve seen has been tolerated if with no one else than the site admins.

    #667702

    truthsharer
    Member

    Squeak,

    I certainly hope so. To think otherwise makes me sad.

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