September 20, 2010 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #592401g73Member
I always put a tablecloth on the dinning room table on sukkos to make it more yomtivdik (obviously I also use a tablecloth in the sukkah). But, I just saw in a sefer that the Chazon Ish was makpid not to cover the tables in the house to show that the sukkah is the diras kevah.
The Pri megaddim also indicates that this is the correct thing to do (although he points out that is not the accepted minhag).
What do you do in your families? Have you ever discussed it with your rov?September 20, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #698030
Never discussed with anyone. Growing up, and today in my own home, we put a tablecloth on the table because it looks nice, likovod yom tov. Its the same reason we vacuum the carpet, clean up the toys and generally straighten up the house before yom tov (succos included). Does the Pri Migadim or Chazon Ish discuss cleaning the rest of the house? Shouldnt the same logic be applied to the entire house?September 20, 2010 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #698031theprof1Participant
We have a tablecloth in the dining room and kitchen tables. Even though it’s a diras aroi for men, it is the diras kevah for women and should look yomyovdik for the women too.September 20, 2010 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #698032d aMember
We put tablecloths on the tables because we have to serve the food.September 21, 2010 6:49 am at 6:49 am #698033g73Member
apushatayid – they do not discuss cleaning the rest of the house, or other things. But I think you can easily be mechalayk. I would always want areas that I spend any time in to be clean and organized. And that is why I will clean my office, garage, attic, etc. But I don’t have the need to create a shabbos/yomtov ambiance in my work office. That I would only want to do where I live – which is why it makes sense to specify tablecloths which create that atmosphere (as opposed to simply vacuuming and tidying up).
But nevertheless, I guess we can apply the rule ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??, and if Jews cover their tables their tables – then that would seem to be proper (which is how the pri megadim seems to conclude).September 21, 2010 11:34 am at 11:34 am #698034mamashtakahMember
The heilege Admor of Shaputnik, Moreinu v’Rabeinu HaGaon Shloimile Rosenbaum, of Tzfas, shlita, has commented on this issue in his sefer “Chalav u’Dvash.” He writes that one should be makpid NOT to cover the indoor table with a tablecloth, as one who is serving fleishig meals might, chv”sh, put a fleishig pot or plate on a milchig tablecloth that might be on the table in error.
The Shaptzniker, shlita, also mentions that we are noheig to serve fleishigs on Yontof, and refers to those who serve milchigs, r”l, as people who obviously do not follow the derech of their ancestors.September 21, 2010 11:48 am at 11:48 am #698035aries2756Participant
I cover the tables for yom tov because it is yom tov and because women are not mechuyav to eat in the Sukkah and you never know if we will wind up at the table sometime during yom tov. In addition, we never know if it will wind up raining or not during yom tov (which often happens) and the meal goes from outside to inside, Also the lecht goes out and in whether during the meal or after the meal, so we keep the table ready and waiting.September 21, 2010 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #698036
G7. I’m not certain you understood my point. If the sukkah is the diras kevah, why does it apply only to the table.
I also dont undersatand your chiluk. you wrote “I would always want areas that I spend any time in to be clean and organized. And that is why I will clean my office, garage, attic, etc.”. You dont spend time in your living room? Im timtza lomar not on succos because your succah is your living room, then why doesnt the svara of the chazon ish apply?September 22, 2010 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #698037
“The Shaptzniker, shlita, also mentions that we are noheig to serve fleishigs on Yontof, and refers to those who serve milchigs, r”l, as people who obviously do not follow the derech of their ancestors”
To use the words r”l is nothing short of nonsense (I’m trying to be careful here). The inyan on Yom Tov is simcha. Even though for most people simcha involves eating meat, for SOME PEOPLE it is the opposite. Some people abhor meat or chicken. Should they make themselves nauseated by eating meat and ruin their simchas Yom Tov, or should they have seichel and eat what they enjoy and makes them happy?September 22, 2010 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #698038YW Moderator-80Member
good question yanky.
perhaps one should ask a shaila from a posek, and not rely on his own limited logic and feelingsSeptember 24, 2010 5:32 am at 5:32 am #698039TzefatViewMember
I live in tzefas (near kikar ha’maginim) and i never heard of YOUR ‘admor’? Is he the admor that comes to town every now and than and dovens in the kosuv?
But everybody knows that what makes this town tick is that this town is just plain wacko, (na na’chs – Mashiach’ist – doped out balei teshuva – coverts who did so by simply stating ‘I AM A JEW’ ect. We are also a town of an incredibly high % of vegans and vegetarians.
So I am venturing a guess here (and this is pure speculation) But maybe YOUR admor owns a shechita factory?
Because to say r’l on such a thing is a distortion of halacha and Torah
See you at SanzSeptember 24, 2010 8:16 am at 8:16 am #698040justsomeguyMember
who are you to question Gedloei Toirah like the Shaptzniker, shlita?? such simple minded people like you who “like” one thing over another.
The Toirah is pretty black & white and I’m sorry if you don’t like th psak of the Shaptzniker, shlita, but that is based on solid writings of our chazal.
To question him makes you worse than the person who does not properly celebrate yom tif with basar v’yayin.September 26, 2010 2:01 am at 2:01 am #698041
It is my understanding that the Shaptznicker Shlita is descended from the FullaBulla dynasty that originated somewhere deep in Transylvania.September 26, 2010 2:28 am at 2:28 am #698042
Who am I? I am a yid “mit seichel”.
One of the biggest problems with yeshivos today, is that they are producing young men (or sheep) who can’t figure out the most simple issue for themselves. For every little thing they have to run to the Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva.
There are times when a Rav is not available and it is critical that benei Torah be able to make some decisions for themselves. But these guys are unable to, because they are purposely trained NOT TO THINK!!!!
Justsomeguy- you are dead wrong. The Torah is NOT black and white. There are many grey areas. Here’s an example. Lying. The Torah says “Midvar sheker tirchok”. According to you it’s black and white that if you are a guest at someone’s house and you think a certain dish is disgusting, you should say so (if the host asks you). Common sense dictates that YOU SHOULD LIE AND SAY IT IS DELICIOUS. I teach my kids all the time that there are situations when it is okay to lie. So you see, it is NOT black and white at all.
There are times when seichel has to take precedence over the halacha. Eating milchigs if that makes you happier on Yom Tov (as opposed to fleishigs that nauseates you) is one of them. There is NO CHIYUV TO FEEL ILL ON YOM TOV.
And further, I have very right to question the “heiligeh” Shapzniker who I never even heard of.
Mod 80- I am a yodei’ah sefer. As I stated above I don’t believe I need to bother my Rav with every ridiculus question. If one understands WHY chazal recommended basar v’yayin, there is no need to ask any shaylos.September 26, 2010 2:35 am at 2:35 am #698043
Yanky55: Please do not refer to things said by menmor learned than me and you as “nonsense”. We may disagree with him, but that doesn’t mean we can’t show some respect.
justsomeguy: Please show me where the Torah says “black & white” that one must eat fleishigs on Yom Tov.
apushatayid: I’m sorry, did you just say that a Rebbe is “full of bull****”?!September 26, 2010 2:52 am at 2:52 am #698044
I don’t believe the “heilger” admor of shaputnik or the shapitzniker or whatever he called them exist. I think some people are getting carried away and getting all excited by the remarks made by a non existent “heiliger admor”.
With that said, no, I didn’t say that the fictional admor was full of bull, I did say that this fictional admor is descended from a long like of fullabulla rebbes.September 26, 2010 3:32 am at 3:32 am #698045
No, I did not say that the rebbe is full of anything. I said he stems from a long line of “fullabulla rebbes”. The “heiliger admor” whose quotes are being debated so heatedly doesn’t exist. He and his heiliger forbearers are basicly a bunch of bull.September 26, 2010 5:18 am at 5:18 am #698046
“One of the biggest problems with yeshivos today, is that they are producing young men (or sheep) who can’t figure out the most simple issue for themselves. For every little thing they have to run to the Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva.”
Yes, what a terrible problem. People consulting Rebbeim and Roshei Yeshivos. Terrible.
I’m sorry, did I miss something? What exactly is the problem here?
“There are times when a Rav is not available and it is critical that benei Torah be able to make some decisions for themselves.”
Yes, it is crucial that bnei Torah know what the basic halachos are. However, anything more serious can and should be asked to a Rav.
“The Torah is NOT black and white. There are many grey areas. Here’s an example. Lying. The Torah says “Midvar sheker tirchok”. According to you it’s black and white that if you are a guest at someone’s house and you think a certain dish is disgusting, you should say so (if the host asks you). Common sense dictates that YOU SHOULD LIE AND SAY IT IS DELICIOUS. I teach my kids all the time that there are situations when it is okay to lie. So you see, it is NOT black and white at all.”
Of course one should not tell their host that a dish is disgusting: the halacha clearly states that one can and should lie for the sake of sholom.
“There are times when seichel has to take precedence over the halacha.”
Not in Orthodox Judaism, there isn’t. Ever. Period.
The seichel can dictate what the halacha should be under x conditions, but nobody and nothing can ever CH”V “take precedence over the halacha”. The entirety of Yiddishkeit is to obey the Torah, and nothing else. If you don’t do that, I’m not entirely sure what gives you the right to consider yourself frum.
apushatayid: Got it. We’ll have to see what mamashtakah, the one who quoted this Rebbe (more than once, if I’m not mistaken), has to say to that.September 26, 2010 5:26 am at 5:26 am #698047Ben TorahParticipant
We’ll have to see what mamashtakah, the one who quoted this Rebbe (more than once, if I’m not mistaken), has to say to that.
More than once indeed. Except last time (4 months ago) Moreinu v’Rabeinu HaGaon Shloimala Rosenbaum, shlita was the “Admor of Sherputz”: CLICK HERE, before recently being instated as the “Admor of Shaputnik” (per above) by mamashtakah.September 26, 2010 5:59 am at 5:59 am #698048
Ben Torah: Hmmm… suspicious indeed…
Apparently, you were right except for one small detail: the FullaBulla dynasty appears to have originated in mamashtakah, not Transylvania.September 26, 2010 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #698049
Yes, it IS a problem that a Ben Torah cannot think for himself. My own Rav is overwhelmed with nahrisha kashes (partly) because of this.
Okay, my example of not embarrassing someone was not a good one. But if the Torah was black and white there would be no machlokess about anything. It is FAR from black and white.
On my last point, I should have phrased it “there are times when seichel has to take precedence over the halachah as written in Shulchan Aruch”. Yes, in Orthodox Judaism.September 26, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #698050HelpfulMember
Yanky: you’re so-called seichel NEVER takes precedence over S”A. PERIOD.September 26, 2010 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #698051
Okay, so that’s YOUR opinion…..call me an apikores if you like.September 27, 2010 3:35 am at 3:35 am #698052
“Yes, it IS a problem that a Ben Torah cannot think for himself. My own Rav is overwhelmed with nahrisha kashes (partly) because of this.”
Yes, I agree that bnei Torah should know the halachos on their own. However, the problem is in this lack of knowledge, not in the fact that they consult daas Torah when they do not know what to do.
“there are times when seichel has to take precedence over the halachah as written in Shulchan Aruch”
I’m not sure exactly how the added words “as written in Shulchan Aruch” change your comment. Care to elaborate? Or at least to name me such a case? Until then, my previous comment still stands.
“call me an apikores if you like”
No, an apikores is (among other things) somebody who denies the validity of the Torah. You surely agree that the Torah was given by Hashem, yet you appear (to the best of my understanding) to feel that one does not need to follow the Torah when one does not feel like it. This may make you somewhat of an idiot (if you believe the Torah is from Hashem, how can you possibly qualify what Hashem said? Do you think your smarter than God?!), not strictly “religious”, and a whole host of other things, but it doesn’t make you an apikores.September 27, 2010 8:27 am at 8:27 am #698053
Anyway, about the tablecloth. We had one on the dining room table likovod Yom Tov as we always do. When we went running in from the succah the first night as it started pouring, we had a “shulchan aruch” all ready to go to continue our seudah (which at that point meant basicly finishing up – we purposely rushed things due to the forcast).September 27, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #698055SacrilegeMember
I learned in BY (GO BY!!!) that you have to learn and be proficient in S”A, and all the Halachos, so that you should know when to ask your Rov.September 27, 2010 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #698056theprof1Participant
Chazal say that Chochme b’goyim taamin. You should believe that goyim have chochme, knowledge, expertise. One thing I learned from goyim is that what colleges generally term “core subjects” are those college subjects which should make a person into a “well-rounded” individual. That means they should be able to make educated decisions based on their studies. A bochur goes through 12 years of study before bais medrash or yeshiva gedola learning. Generally he’ll go through at least 4 more post high school learning, possibly also a semicha program. Can anyone please explain to me why such a yungerman needs to ask a rov the question about a tablecloth on succos? There are many seforim today, both in Hebrew and English, which will give you quite clear directions concerning almost every din and minhag. Hey guys, neisei sefer v’nechse, pull out a sefer and do some research. We aren’t talking here about big time shaylos of married couples or isur achilos. All you guys who made up long pilpulim about all sorts of sugyos in shas, go look up the easy stuff yourself.September 28, 2010 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #698057
Back to the tablecloth. Rav Zinner in his Nitay Gavriel, Siman Lamed Vav Sif Vav says as a matter of fact that the inside tables should be covered with a tablecloth Likovod Yom Tov. He brings down three sources in his footnotes. He doesn’t bring down a dissenting opinion.
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