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according to latest reports and pictures…the radical group of ultra-Orthodox women dressed in cloaks/Burkas has now begun wearing a cloth-covered tube on their heads in order to conceal their human figure…
the stricter members have decided that the veil is not enough, as the form of their face can still be seen. The solution found is a sort of pipe in the form of a funnel, which they wear on their heads under the veil….
I don’t even know what to say, but I think Tznius this is not, This group seems to be following a whole new set of laws that have nothing to do with Jewish Law with regards to Tznius…..
Live and let live. We don’t want them to tell us how to.dress, and we shouldn’t tell them.
Rabbi Falk would say if its the minhag of the community then Kol hakovod, if its not it could show gaava.
This is nothing new. They’re a group of women based out of Ramat Beit Shemesh that have been promoting this “Taliban Tzniyus” for the past few years. There already have been numerous statements by rabbonim decrying their lifestyle, and one of the leaders was arrested on child neglect and abuse charges.
mikehall, you are right. ITs not only NOT tznius. its not even what the Torah is asking of us. Those people have been ostracized in almost every kehilla for a reason. My personal experience with them is that its no longer about tznius or torah but oppression. In body, mind and soul. I personally had friends involved there.
theyre crazy. no live and let live thing here. thats a treif hashkafa. thats not shalom. thats a lack of caring for how Hashem’s torah is to be observed. if chillul shabbos bothers you this should, too.
It has actually been declared against halacha. I don’t know. I usually say to each his own, but this is becoming more and more weird.
Not sure why, but the first thing that came to mind when reading “a cloth-covered tube on their heads” was; My name is Beldar I come from France.
This is just extreme feminism applied to religion.
It’s the opposite of Tzniyus. Clearly they want to draw attention to themselves and that they have. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be talking about it here.
Its not just the dress that is a problem. I wont get into it, but suffice it to say I know first hand! And I bet this thread is soon going to be closed. By the way they do not come from beit shemesh. Lets just confirm here, we are talking about the group from northern quebec right?
AMI Magazine had an article on these folks in this weeks issue. Specifically, why the Badatz came out strongly against them.
What proof did they bring?
AMI Magazine had an article on these folks in this weeks issue. Specifically, why the Badatz came out strongly against them.
Because they insisted on their husband behaving in accordance with the Shulchan Aruch OH 240?
?????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??
Offen a Shulchan Aruch.
If you need to be so machmir on other things, the women will empower themselves to be makpid on what they want to be machmir on.
GAW, I’m not sure what you are saying, or if you are even addressing me.
GAW, I’m not sure what you are saying, or if you are even addressing me.
I can’t print more than I did here (and I am not specificly addressing you, just the (real) reasons that I have heard).
Look it up for yourself.
These women are living in a different world. I saw an article about one of them; how they won’t let their husband come home from kollel until 11:30 pm so he won’t see his 12 year old daughter in pajamas. That’s ridiculous! These women are like kids who go to Israel after high school and flip out and take on all of these stringencys. Hopefully just like these “flip outs” flip in when they return to America, so will these crazy taliban women.
These women are living in a different world. I saw an article about one of them; how they won’t let their husband come home from kollel until 11:30 pm so he won’t see his 12 year old daughter in pajamas.
What do you expect when these women are told that they are not allowed to be seen by men? That they are the “protectors” of their husbands’ virtue?
This is a logical outgrowth of the separated buses and opposite side sidewalks.
This isn’t about chumras, and is not a logical outgrowth of other chumras.
It’s about women asserting themselves to the extent of being dominant over men. They won’t be happy until we grovel at their feet. This is feminism on steroids.
No. IMHO this is a logical outgrowth of BTs thinking they’re holier than thou and being unused to submit to Daas Torah, which applies to the leaders of both the Bet Shemesh cult and the Quebec cult. (Not ch”v to paint all upstanding BTs, for whom I have the utmost respect.)
MichaelC: “Rabbi Falk would say if its the minhag of the community then Kol hakovod, if its not it could show gaava. “
No he wouldn’t. Stop putting rediculous quotes into Rabbi Falk’s mouth.
I am going to protest MichaelC’s statements. While I personally have serious issues with Rabbi Falk, I don’t think (and I certainly hope not) that he would go that far.
G.A.W.,
I finally found your reference in S.A. Understand the topic somewhat, but don’t the phrase or what it is referring to… Need some help….. Can you direct me to an English sefer? Or explain to trak443 on the “heis” mail domain.
I am not an expert but it seems to me that these women have OCD in which they take religion to the extreme. They need to be seen by a professional and take medication. I pity them.
this is when it becomes cult. Its no more free will invovled here. Its turning over one’s neshama to the “rebbe leader”. And that is the sin.
GAW, that paragraph in Shulchan Aruch is a chumra which can not be imposed against a spouse’s will. And don’t even start — it is a chumra, not a chiyuv.
its not ‘daas torah’ ,its not tsnius, its some weird, unhealthy cult type obssession.
p.s. i’m also annoyed with these women because they’ve made perfectly nice looking shawls taboo. now i’ve got to go buy colorful shawls so noone should confuse me with them. b’emet!
I’m the first to say that these women are in desperate need of psychological treatment. However, when criticizing their tznius habits, it seems that the shoe is now on the other foot. To many fine Jewish people, separate seating or separate rooms for shabbos meals, separate sides of the sidewalk, shaving heads, thick black stockings and more of the same, all of these are just variations on the Taliban tznius theme.
The Taliban also have their rabbonim, and they don’t have to listen to anyone else’s. Many chassidishe/litvishe think of themselves as tzaddikim, but the Taliban group thinks those people will burn in hell. Maybe one day we’ll find out who was right, but in the meantime, we don’t really know, do we.
In the end, it’s all about where to draw the line. Don’t draw it for others because others will draw it for you.
GAW, that paragraph in Shulchan Aruch is a chumra which can not be imposed against a spouse’s will. And don’t even start — it is a chumra, not a chiyuv.
And so are all the other things that are being imposed on the women in Mea Shearim & Bait Shemesh. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I see many posters here that say chumrahs in Tznius by definition are a good thing, even when it affects others. What should they be any different?
This cult is the perfect example of Kav Hayashar ch. 52- if someone acts frummer than the rest of society, they are chashud for serious behavior.
Old man:; You have gone too far this time( Again). Seperate seating can NOT be equated to these CRACKPOTS!Just because you are not on the level of others who feel that seperate seating is a chiyuv, doesn’t mean you should make fun of them! Taliban women is another parsha altogether and so are those in Quebec, nebach. I truly feel sorry for them!
Imaofthree -“I am not an expert but it seems to me that these women have OCD in which they take religion to the extreme.”
Yes, you are not an expert – so be quiet. I have to make a Mechoh in name of all the people who have OCD. While some of these freaks could have OCD or OCD personality disorder, most people who suffer from OCD aren’t this crazy. OCD is Not like it’s portrayed on TV – like in shows such as Hoarders. These people have the most extreme cases. To reference OCD with these people is to malign most people that have OCD. These people are more likely psychotics or the very extreme cases of OCD. The avg. guy/gal with OCD isn’t a psychotic!
“They need to be seen by a professional and take medication.”
Yes, they do!
old man -Another well thought out post.
Health: I hope you are joking?
A Mamin. Everyone draws the line somewhere, where do you draw the line? If they wanted to form an amazon like community where only females were welcome is THAT going to far or should we indulge their yearnings for absolute tznius and separation from men?
A pushata Yid: You may be pashut but I think you have some common sense, so use it. I am not here to draw lines for anyone else, I try to stay in my own parimeters and take care of my own family.
A mamin: A higher level? You’re making the same judgment that these people are. You think that separate seating is a higher level. They think that burqas are a higher lever. Why should you make fun of them? They’re on a higher level than you, right? Do you see the problem with your argument?
Excellent. You do that. Why doesnt the Badatz follow your line of reasoning and stay out of it too? What do you think?
I am not here to draw lines for anyone else,
Just because you are not on the level of others who feel that seperate seating is a chiyuv, doesn’t mean you should make fun of them! Taliban women is another parsha
‘Nuff said.
YWN had a story last week that a Sephardic Rov said these women are correct, and this Is how yiddesha women used to dress in the mizrachi countries.
Apushata Yid: I’m not a Bais Din, Thank you!
Sam2 : Where did you see that I said I’m on a higher level???
Calling something a chiyuv doesn’t necessarily make it one. If the practice of your particular affinity group is to have, say, separate seating at weddings, fine. You and your group can consider it a requirement but in no way can it be considered an obligation min haTorah on anyone else. Also the idea that anyone who observes this or any other chumra is on a higher spiritual level than one who doesn’t is not only nonsense, it is a slander on that person. Take care of your own spiritual level and let others take care of their’s.
I think those of you who are unfamiliar with the rest of their lifestyle requirements may want to look into them before you continue. You may find that while you don’t like how its being said, you may not really disagree after all. One example is a requirement for all brides to be sampled before the wedding. There’s more but I probably shouldn’t of said that much.
You dont have to be one, to listen to one, or to agree with one.
the eidah has opposed this group of people strongly besides the burka theres many other halachic and human right abuse is going on in the group
Perhaps they dressed that way in mizrachi countries because their host rulers forbade them out in the street any other way. Almost 10 years ago 15 Saudi girls were forced back into a burning building by the saudi tznius police because they were not dressed according to sharia law (they were taking a gym class).
mikehall, just to fill you in, Health here thinks EVERYONE needs a mental health professional and meds. She/HE mentions it in other threads too.
I just don’t like the hostility and antagonistic personality.
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