Talking to Cousins

I think you might be confusing hallacha with appropriate behavior. I never heard of anyone assuring talking to girls(of any type), but I did that it is not a thing a ben torah does. (obviously not including shidduchim)

I don’t see a big problem with talking to them. It helps families get together. I personally don’t talk much to my female cousin, but that is for completely different reasons.

Just remember not to be insulting. Shaming a person (even a female) is a serious Aveirah.

is it muttar for a ben torah to have a coversation with his female cousins?

🙂

By the the evry fact you ask about a “Ben Torah” vs. a normal Jew, you are asking about societal norms, not Halacha. As such, the answer is no. What if someone sees you and thinks you are a Mushchis, CV? You may be Passuled from life support!!

Stay away.

Why not?

My family’s really close and I’ve known my cousins forever, which honestly gives me squicky feelings about cousin marriage- I mean, seriously.

We played with each other when we were little and still play board games and stuff. I really don’t talk to them so much, especially as they’ve gotten older, but everyone’s nice and friendly, everyone says hi when they meet each other, etc.

A lot has to do with age- my 15 year old cousin (in a super-shtark yeshiva) is more likely to talk to me than my 18 year old cousin.

Look, whatever makes you and everyone else comfortable.

Most people today think of their cousins like they do a brother or sister, Its generally not socially acceptable to marry your cousin

SanityIsOverrated

Its a chidush to me that women are people and that it would be assur to shame one.

What does “socially acceptable” or “whatever makes you comfortable” have to do with taava? It doesn’t, and these are halachic matters, not whatever you think is for you.

Writer Soul, it is understandable if a younger male cousin (mistakenly, but still) believes you’re like a sister to him, more than one who is closer in age to you.

ZDad, thinking of a cousin as a brother or sister is a nice concept – until somehow one of them doesn’t any more think of the other as only a cousin when something about the other person appeals to them in a non-cousin type way.

Chazal knew a lot better than some people give them credit for. Ask a Rav, as I wrote above.

If your female cousins are fat, then by all means tell them. 😉

It is Muttar to talk to a cousin (unless you are in a family where you Mamash don’t know your cousing like you would a stranger).

The Mechaber very conspicuously leaves talking out of the list of Assur interactions with Arayos. Hence, talking is not inherently Derech Chibah (while other flirtatious actions are).

R’ Moshe says that in today’s society, if a guy is going to be friends with a girl while there are so many guys available to be friends with, there is an inherent psychological assumption that the reason he wants to have some form of relationship is because, well, she’s a girl. That, he says, makes even talking inherently Derech Chibah and Assur Min Hatorah.

By one’s cousins, this assumption doesn’t seem to apply, and certainly if the cousins grow up together. Thus, in this case, just talking (in a non-inappropriate way, obviously) should not be Assur.

SanityIsOverated wrote:

Just remember not to be insulting. Shaming a person (even a female) is a serious Aveirah.

I think popa_bar_abba would disagree with this because he holds women aren’t Jewish so there is no issur to shame them. This is also why it is assur to say Good Shabbos to them because you are in essence saying Good Shabbos to a non-Jew

As others have said, since a cousin is no less of an ervah than any other pinuyah, the same “lo siKrivu liGalos ervah” applies.

Actually, (barring niddah issues) neither is an ervah.

And lest you state that it is forbidden to talk to a cousin/unmarried woman because of one’s ervah status as a niddah), then it should be forbidden to talk to your own parent, sibling or child of the opposite gender, since they are intrinsically and permanently an ervah (unlike a cousin or otherwise unrelated, unmarried woman).

The Wolf

Why don’t you decide for yourself? The decision is up to you

HaKatan: The Issur of talking is not due to the possibility of attraction growing. If that were true, dating would be Assur. The Issur is because, Al Pi Hapsak Shel R’ Moshe, even friendly conversation between members of the opposite gender is inherently Derech Chibah (because since you could be having the same conversation with a guy, it follows that the reason you are having said conversation with a girl is because she is a girl). Read the T’shuvah (EH 4:60). It is clear. Therefore, it stands to reason that cousins, where it is not inherently Derech Chibah, is not an issue. I am saying this myself but it is more than obvious to anyone who reads the T’shuvah.

By your argument, it should be Assur M’ikar HaDin (or at least M’guneh) to speak to your sister.

Interestingly, the legality of first cousin marriages seems to be a red state blue state issue where red states generally prohibit them and blue states generally permit them.

Thank goodness we have guidance to subvert our use of common sense. I mean, really? Some gedarim are mandatory; some are appropriate in context. This one seems to border the ridiculous. Consider the environment – open, with other family members around; consider the people involved; bnei and bnos Torah, with all the benefit of their upbringing and education, so painstakingly created by the previous generation of gedolim, so expensively paid for by parents;

Have all their years of learning by example and in schools been for naught? Is this what we say – we immerse you in Torah, we teach you day and night, but we don’t trust you or the years of education we have provided for you to have a civil conversation with your cousin?

This is naarishkeit! It is the footnote to the creation of a generation of robots who can not make the simplest, most obvious proper choices for themselves not because they are incapable, but because the power structure of our families and communities demands that they not make choices as HKBH created them to do.

Yiddishkeit is NOT about the creation of a two tier society – decisors and sheep. The whole point of talmud torah from a young age is to create thinking Jews! So let them decide to have a conversation with a cousin, or not, and let them use everything they have been taught to recognize when and if it may become inappropriate.

The difference between 22 and 38 is some states dont allow it, but will recognize cousin marriages performed in other states.

Sam2: Thank you for the clarification. However, I still don’t see why R’ Moshe’s psak wouldn’t apply to cousins other than as FunnyBone mentioned.

Halakha does permit endogamous marriages, such as among cousins (I’d say that as part of ushmartem et nafshoteichem, there ought to be a takkanah banning these unions, due to genetic difficulties, as well as chillul hashem, since we view this as an Appalachian/backwards practice nowadays). It wouldn’t be unreasonable that a boy would have physical urges or impure thoughts towards such a cousin, especially if there was distance between them, and in such case, he should avoid idle chatter with them. But if the cousin is like a sister to him (and this is true in many families), I don’t see the harm in talking.

Wolf: The close relatives, i.e. mother sister etc. don’t have an issur ervah as there is no yetzer hora for them. A cousin has the halacha like a regular girl, where (as I understood my rav) you can ask your neighbor for a cup of flour, you can ask your cousin how she is. Shmoozing with a cousin is like shmoozing with anyone else and has the same halachos.

Most people do not have a Yetzer Harah for their cousin , most people consider it like incest.

Just remember – if you don’t talk to your cousin, your mother will get untzuhernisht from your aunt.

PBA, it depends what type of cousin they are. There is a biological instinct to not desire your cousin since it might result in birth defects.

HaKatan: I clearly made a distinction in my first post. I said if you don’t know your cousins that well then it could be true. I just said that by people who grow up with their cousins it isn’t necessarily true.

Obviously, people can be Over Issurim with cousins, just like I said earlier that it’s possible to be Over Issurim with a sister or a mother. The fact is, though, that by cousins (for most people), Stam talking between cousins does not <i>inherently</i>carry the same assumption that the main reason you are talking is because the person you are talking to is a member of the opposite gender. If one talks to their cousin in an Assur fashion, then it’s Assur. But if they don’t, it is not <i>inherently</> Assur.

PBA, there is. See (DeBruine, 2002)

Here’s a snippet:

PBA: You should say that it’s a B’feirush Rashi (I think in Sanhedrin) that people aren’t attracted to their mothers or sisters (Hevei Mashma that cousins they are).