Talking With Members of The Opposite Gender

Home Forums Inspiration / Mussar Talking With Members of The Opposite Gender

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 210 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #663025

    myshadow
    Member

    SJS, 🙂 nope not at all!! I know I gave it away. I gota make a new sn or start keeping my mouth shut

    #663026

    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    You’re probably referring to cases of Ones (one is essentially forced to do so). In my professional career, I was always able to avoid shaking womens hands in a cordial manner. So why would shaking a non-Jewish female’s hand not be 100% assur?

    But, let’s hear it for childish name calling!!!!

    #663027

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Mayan_Dvash: Huh? Unless youre not talking to me.

    #663030

    anon for this
    Participant

    Mayan_Davash,

    You wrote, “You’re probably referring to cases of Ones (one is essentially forced to do so). In my professional career, I was always able to avoid shaking womens hands in a cordial manner. So why would shaking a non-Jewish female’s hand not be 100% assur?”

    Are you saying that because you were always able to avoid shaking hands with a non-Jewish woman in your career, no other Jewish man is permitted to shake hands in a business setting with a non-Jewish woman? Or are you just saying it would be assur for you to do it?

    #663033

    Joseph
    Participant

    anon,

    Because it says in the Igros Moshe (Choshem Mishpat volume 2, siman 32,

    sub heading 9 ?) that it is assur to shake a woman’s hand. (It also says in the IM it is prohibited to chat with women, like ujm provided the mekor yesterday.)

    #663034

    kiruvwife
    Member

    I should probably put this in the “why do you come to the CR thread”, but I have to say it’s such a pleasure reading this thread. It’s so nice to see how yidden have such a sensitivity to real true tznius and it really means something. Halevai the people that I work with will one day have an appreciation for what is being discussed here.

    #663035

    anon for this
    Participant

    Actually, Joseph, I was just trying to make sure I understood what Mayan_Dvash was saying.

    #663036

    anonymisss
    Participant

    ames, you probably should ask your rabbi, if it’s something that you really need to know. The cr cannot give you a psak halacha.

    Good Luck!

    ~a~

    #663037

    Bemused
    Participant

    Striving,

    Good point. I too wondered about the seeming discrepancy of frum site/casual, social interaction between the genders.

    #663041

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Ames, for this you really have to ask your LOR. For a woman to shake a non-Jewish man’s hand is less problematic than vice versa. I know when I started work, my Rav told me that I was allowed to if the situation called for it. But I work in a company thats 85% male and its very hard to avoid.

    #663042

    tzippi
    Member

    I haven’t been following the thread, but if it focuses on hand shaking, I invite people to track down Rabbi Reisman’s motzei Shabbos shiur of two weeks ago about living in golus. He mentions common shailos of the work place, including hand shaking. Besides the actual psak, our mindsets are crucials.

    #663043

    myshadow
    Member

    ames, the cr is great but please don’t get a psak from here! It’s not so simple the whole concept of handshaking.

    #663044

    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    anon for this: I’m saying that in a case of Oiness is different. For example, a friend of mine went to his graduation when he got his master’s degree. Everyone is dressed in their caps and gowns. Part of the march from backstage to their seats, they were going to shake “the dean’s” hand and a photographer was there to capture the moment. The way it was set up, the dean was just beyond a door. So he’s walking along, gets to the door and the dean who is a woman (this is the moment he finds that out) sticks out her hand. So he shakes her hand because he didn’t even have time to think about what was going on. However, if I am walking in to a job interview and the manager happens to be a woman, I always excused myself for not shaking their hand, and in EVERY case they respected that.

    #663045

    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    Sorry if I missed someone’s response, I am not ignoring anyone. I am just relaying what I was taught in Yeshiva (post high school). Every situation is different and needs to be assessed on the spot. That’s why you need to know the dinim well. I know of a frum guy who owns a big company. It seems that when he gives out the annual awards to his employees he does shake women’s hands. I am pretty sure he asked a shailah from a well respected rav (I know where he davens).

    #663046

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    If you are firm but remain mentchlach in your position not to shake hands it’s usually not a problem. Most goiyim are aware of this by now. You just smile and say politely, “I’m sorry, we don’t shake hands.” Keep it simple. It does not matter if they think you are a bit strange. You are saying it in a very pleasant manner and you conduct yourself professionally and respectfully the rest of the meeting. They will not even remember this small incident.

    Once or twice I’ve had to explain “for religious reasons”, just to respond to a questioning look. In this day and age everyone has their own beliefs and nobody will look down upon you for sticking to them. Usually, it’s even the opposite- you are looked up to.

    Good luck

    #663047

    myshadow
    Member

    ames, don’t feel stupid!! Tell your rabbi some people were discussing that it might actually be muttar and you were wondering if there’s any truth to that…

    Let us know what he says

    #663048

    Joseph
    Participant

    It is an issur d’oraysah. Reb Moshe, in the Igros Moshe, states that Lo Sikrevu means you can’t talk to girls. Rav Moshe is quoting a statment of Chazal in Avos D’Reb Nosson and rulings of the Ran and others. Avos: “Al tarbeh sichah im haishah” – Do not talk more than necessary with women. The Mishnah continues: “Whoever does talk more than necessary with women causes bad for himself . . . and in the end will end up in Gehinnom!” Re derech chibah: The Halachah (Rambam) prohibits negiyah even in a non-affectionate manner. Casual negiyah is also prohibited — see the Steipler’s Letters quoting the Chazon Ish for details — even if it doesn’t “mean anything”. Even regarding a simple handshake between strangers, Rav Moshe writes that you should not rely on this as a heter.

    Lo Sikrevu – the Torah prohibition of touching – is referring even to non-affectionate touching, according to the Rambam. The Ramban argues, and holds that non-affectionate touching is not included in the possuk, but is assur nonetheless m’drabbanan. The prohibition of Lo Sikravu applies to all ages equally. There is no logic in saying that an explicit Torah prohibition is “not talking” about certain ages.

    Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer:

    “A person must stay far, far away from the women, and it is prohibited to signal with your hand, to hint with your eyes, to any prohibited women. It is furthermore prohibited to laugh together with them and to be frivolous in her presence, or to watch her beauty. Even to smell her perfume is forbidden….”

    Rav Moshe addressed the Derech Chibah issue in his Teshuva, saying that whenever boys and girls are friends, even innocently, that is considered Assur, like Derech Chibah. R. Moshe Feinstein repeatedly (Iggeros Moshe, Orach Chaim vol. 1 no. 113; Even Ha-Ezer vol. 1 no. 56) ruled that a man enjoys shaking a woman’s hand and it is therefore

    prohibited. The Steipler writes in his letters in the name of the Chazon Ish that it is absolutely prohibited. Regarding a so-called heter that you will embarass her if you don’t shake hands, it’s simple logic: If someone asked you to call them on Shabbos and you telligng them sorry I cant do that would embarrass them for asking, would you be mechalel shabbos to prevent their embarrassment? Or if someone offered you non-kosher food and refusing would embarrass them would you eat treif?

    #663049

    TJ
    Member

    Some poskim were mattir returning a brief handshake in a professional context based on the Yerushalmi that says “ain yetzer hara matzui l’sha’ah” and that the such a handshake would not be considered “derech chiba.” R’ Reuvein Feinstein, shlit”a, reportedly said that R’ Moshe, zt”l, was mattir returning a woman’s handshake in a case where she would otherwise be embarrassed. R’ Ya’akov Kaminetzky, zt”l, wrote “tzarich iyun” in such a case where returning a handshake would be necessary to avoid embarrassing someone. As Areivim wrote, refusing to return a handshake won’t necessarily cause embarrassment, in which case both R’ Moshe and R’ Ya’akov were inclined to assur returning the handshake.

    #663050

    anon for this
    Participant

    Mayan_Dvash, thanks for clarifying. I’m glad that not shaking hands has worked out well for you.

    #663051

    Joseph
    Participant

    TJ, I don’t believe Reb Yaakov ever said any such thing regarding a heter for embarrassment. Do you have a mekor for that? I think not. The most “authoritative” source to claim a heter for embarrassment is supposedly Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchek; but even that is mere claims and no mekor. Reb Moshe wrote befeirush in the quoted IM that shaking hands is always assur under all circumstances. Period. It is an issur d’oraysah.

    #663052

    TJ
    Member

    Joseph wrote: “Lo Sikrevu – the Torah prohibition of touching – is referring even to non-affectionate touching, according to the Rambam. The Ramban argues, and holds that non-affectionate touching is not included in the possuk, but is assur nonetheless m’drabbanan.”

    It is not poshut bichlal to say that the Rambam was referring to “non-affectionate touching.” The poshut understanding of the Rambam is not like that, though the Beis Yosef did understand the Rambam like you, but the Shach disagrees completely (Yoreh De’ah 157:10). R’ Moshe in his teshuva paskened like the Shach. Also, I don’t think that the Ramban mentioned “non-affectionate touching,” either. Perhaps you got that confused with the Teshuvos HaRashba.

    Joseph wrote: “TJ, I don’t believe Reb Yaakov ever said any such thing regarding a heter for embarrassment. Do you have a mekor for that? I think not.”

    Actually, I do. Emes L’Ya’akov on the Tur and Shulchan Aruch, p.405 n. 4.

    Joseph wrote: “Reb Moshe wrote befeirush in the quoted IM that shaking hands is always assur under all circumstances. Period.”

    True that R’ Moshe asured handshaking, though he was lomeid zechus for those who hold that it isn’t derech chiba. I just wrote what R’ Reuven reported about his father’s shita, in a case where there is the additional issue of embarrassment.

    #663053

    labochur
    Member

    Joseph, Reb Osher Weiss was just in Los Angeles, a doctor asked him if he’s about to do a surgery on a lady or on her husband and the lady puts out her hand to shake it, is he aloud to shake it- if not, she’ll be extremely insulted. R’ Weiss said that he doesn’t see how you can’t shake it if she’ll be embarassed. When I asked the doctor what he spoke to the Rov about, he told me this.

    #663054

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, I have heard that for women its less problematic (I was given a heter to shake mens hands at work). I would guess that might stem from “…a man enjoys shaking a woman’s hand and it is therefore prohibited.” Do you anything about that either way?

    As for comparing it to mechalel shabbos or treif – many different jobs have requirements that force you to violate halacha in some form. We couldnt have Jewish doctors otherwise. Its not like there arent plenty of doctors around nowadays that Jews need to enter that profession.

    #663055

    Joseph
    Participant

    TJ, thanks for the mekor. I’ll have to check it. Regarding a possible heter for embarrasing, aside for the illogical tainas against it I listed and Reb Moshe paskening against it, such a heter wouldnt even be plausible with shaking with a goy – as there is no issur to embarass a goy.

    #663056

    yossiea
    Member

    Holy Mods, I’m not sure why you keep censoring my posts.

    Joseph, look at the Badei Hashulchan. He (or one of the commentaries on the bottom) discuss this and end result, it’s not clear cut that it’s 100% assur (at least for a non-Jew).

    #663057

    Joseph
    Participant

    TJ, Actually you are incorrect regarding Reb Yaakov paskening it permissable to shake hands to avoid embarasement. In the mekor provided, Reb Yaakov states “Regarding returning a handshake to women when they extend their hand first in greeting, not in an affectionate manner, this is a very serious question and it is difficult to be lenient.” Reb Yaakov goes on to state that in a situation where there will cause embarasement, it requires further study whether it is permissable to be lenient or not. He never paskened one may be lenient in such a situation.

    There is two prohibitions about this: 1) The Torah commanded to avoid all women with the status of nidah (Vayikra 18:19). and 2) It might lead to improper thoughts, which are prohibited (Kesuvos 46a; Shulhan Aruch, Even Haezer 23:3).

    Reb Moshe, multiple times in the Igros Moshe, is very clear that it is assur:

    1) EH I #56 page 144

    “Concerning that which you saw people being lenient even those who are

    yirei shamayim – to offer their hand to a woman when she stuck her hand

    out. Perhaps they reasoned that this is not derech chibah and taavah –

    but l’maaseh this is difficult to rely on.”

    2) OC I 113 page 177

    “To offer one’s hand to a woman in the manner of those greeting others

    upon meeting. It is pashut that it is prohibited even for an unmarried

    woman since they are niddah and surely it is prohibited for a married

    woman”.

    3) EH IV 32.9 page 76

    “To offer one’s hand to a woman in the manner of those greeting others

    upon meeting. It is definitely pashut that it is prohibited as I have

    written OC I 113. That is because one needs to be concerned for the issue

    of derech chibah and taavah. But I wrote in EH I #56…that one is to

    dan l’kaf zechus those who are relying that it is not derech chibah and

    taavah to shake hands. But there I wrote that l’maashe it is difficult

    to rely on this. Furthermore I don’t see any inconsistency at all with

    that which I permitted a person to travel on a bus because there –

    there is basically no issue of chibah.”

    Even if it causes embarassement it is assur according to Reb Moshe (see Halichos Bas Yisrael, vol. I, p. 110 n.33) and Nine to Five – A Guide to Modest Conduct for Today’s Workplace by Rav Shmuel Neiman, p.14 (“it has been rumored that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, zt”l, ruled that it is permissible for men and women to shake hands. Nothing could be further from the truth! In his responsa, he agonized over this unacceptable practice and repeatedly stated that it is forbidden and infringes on giluy arayos”).

    The Chazon Ish stated [re: a man shaking a woman’s hand who is not his spouse, his mother, his daughter, or his granddaughter] [p.p. 130-131])

    A Yeshiva student from England refused to shake hands with his step-mother when greeting her. His father was extremely upset with his refusal. He demanded his son display “derech eretz” towards his step-mother and shake her hand. The son refused stating he was taught it was impermissable with a non close blood relative. This affected the fathers relationship with the son. Some family members told the son to give in al sholom bayis. The son asked a shaila from the Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish responded with a short and sharp answer – “Chok V’lo Yaavor, Issur Gamur” (It is a prohibition that one dare not violate; It is absolutely forbidden,) Violating this halacha was out of the question despite sholom bayis and kibud av. (Oz Vehadar, p. 494).

    Its also paskened assur in Responsa Be’er Moshe 4:130, and the Od Yosef Chai (by the Gaon Ben Ish Chai zt’l) Shoftim #22 where they rule it is totally assur. The Sefer Chassidim # 1090 writes one should not shake hands even if the person of the opposite gender is not Jewish.

    Rav Shmuel Neiman, in Nine to Five: A Guide to Modest Conduct for Today’s Workplace writes regarding male-female interaction in the workplace:

    It is forbidden to make small talk about matters unrelated to business. Men and women working together should not discuss politics, current events, recent tragedies or gossip, even if they do not do so regularly. Discussing these matters on a daily basis, is a violation of halachos that border on giluy arayos, which requires one to sacrifice his life rather than transgress. (p. 9)

    When conversing with female employees or co-workers, one must be careful not to us the word “we,” so that the man and woman are not referred to as one unit. For example, one should not say, “We must talk with the editor,” or “We must purchase that software program.” Rather, he should say, “The editor must be consulted,” or “Please purchase that program.” (pp. 10-11)

    It is a custom amongst yirei shomayim not to call a woman other than one’s wife or immediate family member by her first name, thus keeping a respectful distance between the two parties. Referring to a woman by her first name brings inappropriate familiarity into the relationship. Similarly, a woman should refrain from addressing a man other than her husband or immediate family member by his first name. (p. 20)

    It is appropriate for male and female employees [to] refrain from all conversation when they meet anywhere outside of the office. This includes not discussing even job-related matters when meeting in the hallway or elevator at work.

    #663058

    TJ
    Member

    Joseph wrote: “there is no issur to embarass a goy”

    Public humiliation is a very serious sin (“kol hamalbin… k’eelu shofeich damim”). Even though the issur b’etzem refers to chaveiro, chilul Hashem is an important consideration here. Possibly even mishoom eivah, as well. (In addition, a goyah is not exactly in the same category of arayos d’oraisa as a Bas Yisrael. As such, the parameters of lo sikrevu as applying to a goyah are not necessarily so clear cut).

    P.S. To Joseph, and to the mods: This forum is a reshus harabim. V’dai l’chakima birmiza.

    #663059

    Joseph
    Participant

    TJ, Actually you are incorrect regarding Reb Yaakov paskening it permissable to shake hands to avoid embarasement. In the mekor provided, Reb Yaakov states “Regarding returning a handshake to women when they extend their hand first in greeting, not in an affectionate manner, this is a very serious question and it is difficult to be lenient.” Reb Yaakov goes on to state that in a situation where there will cause embarasement, it requires further study whether it is permissable to be lenient or not. He never paskened one may be lenient in such a situation.

    There is two prohibitions about this: 1) The Torah commanded to avoid all women with the status of nidah (Vayikra 18:19). and 2) It might lead to improper thoughts, which are prohibited (Kesuvos 46a; Shulhan Aruch, Even Haezer 23:3).

    Reb Moshe, multiple times in the Igros Moshe, is very clear that it is assur:

    1) EH I #56 page 144

    “Concerning that which you saw people being lenient even those who are

    yirei shamayim – to offer their hand to a woman when she stuck her hand

    out. Perhaps they reasoned that this is not derech chibah and taavah –

    but l’maaseh this is difficult to rely on.”

    2) OC I 113 page 177

    “To offer one’s hand to a woman in the manner of those greeting others

    upon meeting. It is pashut that it is prohibited even for an unmarried

    woman since they are niddah and surely it is prohibited for a married

    woman”.

    3) EH IV 32.9 page 76

    “To offer one’s hand to a woman in the manner of those greeting others

    upon meeting. It is definitely pashut that it is prohibited as I have

    written OC I 113. That is because one needs to be concerned for the issue

    of derech chibah and taavah. But I wrote in EH I #56…that one is to

    dan l’kaf zechus those who are relying that it is not derech chibah and

    taavah to shake hands. But there I wrote that l’maashe it is difficult

    to rely on this. Furthermore I don’t see any inconsistency at all with

    that which I permitted a person to travel on a bus because there –

    there is basically no issue of chibah.”

    Even if it causes embarassement it is assur according to Reb Moshe (see Halichos Bas Yisrael, vol. I, p. 110 n.33) and Nine to Five – A Guide to Modest Conduct for Today’s Workplace by Rav Shmuel Neiman, p.14 (“it has been rumored that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, zt”l, ruled that it is permissible for men and women to shake hands. Nothing could be further from the truth! In his responsa, he agonized over this unacceptable practice and repeatedly stated that it is forbidden and infringes on giluy arayos”).

    The Chazon Ish stated [re: a man shaking a woman’s hand who is not his spouse, his mother, his daughter, or his granddaughter] [p.p. 130-131])

    A Yeshiva student from England refused to shake hands with his step-mother when greeting her. His father was extremely upset with his refusal. He demanded his son display “derech eretz” towards his step-mother and shake her hand. The son refused stating he was taught it was impermissable with a non close blood relative. This affected the fathers relationship with the son. Some family members told the son to give in al sholom bayis. The son asked a shaila from the Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish responded with a short and sharp answer – “Chok V’lo Yaavor, Issur Gamur” (It is a prohibition that one dare not violate; It is absolutely forbidden,) Violating this halacha was out of the question despite sholom bayis and kibud av. (Oz Vehadar, p. 494).

    Its also paskened assur in Responsa Be’er Moshe 4:130, and the Od Yosef Chai (by the Gaon Ben Ish Chai zt’l) Shoftim #22 where they rule it is totally assur. The Sefer Chassidim # 1090 writes one should not shake hands even if the person of the opposite gender is not Jewish.

    Rav Shmuel Neiman, in Nine to Five: A Guide to Modest Conduct for Today’s Workplace writes regarding male-female interaction in the workplace:

    It is forbidden to make small talk about matters unrelated to business. Men and women working together should not discuss politics, current events, recent tragedies or gossip, even if they do not do so regularly. Discussing these matters on a daily basis, is a violation of halachos that border on giluy arayos, which requires one to sacrifice his life rather than transgress. (p. 9)

    When conversing with female employees or co-workers, one must be careful not to us the word “we,” so that the man and woman are not referred to as one unit. For example, one should not say, “We must talk with the editor,” or “We must purchase that software program.” Rather, he should say, “The editor must be consulted,” or “Please purchase that program.” (pp. 10-11)

    It is a custom amongst yirei shomayim not to call a woman other than one’s wife or immediate family member by her first name, thus keeping a respectful distance between the two parties. Referring to a woman by her first name brings inappropriate familiarity into the relationship. Similarly, a woman should refrain from addressing a man other than her husband or immediate family member by his first name. (p. 20)

    It is appropriate for male and female employees [to] refrain from all conversation when they meet anywhere outside of the office. This includes not discussing even job-related matters when meeting in the hallway or elevator at work.

    #663060

    Joseph
    Participant

    TJ, If someone asked you to call them on Shabbos, and you telling them sorry I can’t do that would embarrass them for asking, would you be mechalel shabbos to prevent their embarrassment? Or if someone offered you non-kosher food and refusing would embarrass them, would you eat treif? You cannot be oiver an issur (especially d’oraisa) to avoid embarassing someone – no in these examples and not in negiah. Especially not for a nochri.

    #663061

    torahtziva
    Member

    the person has no idea who he is talking to. what is the issur.

    #663062

    TJ
    Member

    Joseph wrote: “TJ, Actually you are incorrect regarding Reb Yaakov paskening it permissable to shake hands to avoid embarasement. In the mekor provided, Reb Yaakov states “Regarding returning a handshake to women when they extend their hand first in greeting, not in an affectionate manner, this is a very serious question and it is difficult to be lenient.” Reb Yaakov goes on to state that in a situation where there will cause embarasement, it requires further study whether it is permissable to be lenient or not.”

    I never said that R’ Ya’akov “pasken[ed] it permissable to shake hands to avoid embarasement.” I refer you to what I wrote above: “[Where] return[ing] a handshake won’t cause embarrassment… R’ Ya’akov [was] inclined to assur returning the handshake.” I also wrote: “R’ Ya’akov wrote “tzarich iyun” in such a case where returning a handshake would be necessary to avoid embarrassing someone.” You are arguing against a phantom here.

    Joseph wrote: “Reb Moshe, multiple times in the Igros Moshe, is very clear that it is assur.”

    Again, I never disagreed with that. (However, as I mentioned before, he was lomeid zechus on those who hold that it is muttar.) At the risk of repeating myself, I was simply reporting what R’ Reuvein said about R’ Moshe giving a different p’sak when the person would be embarrassed. This p’sak wasn’t in Igros Moshe.

    Joseph wrote: “TJ, If someone asked you to call them on Shabbos, and you telling them sorry I can’t do that would embarrass them for asking, would you be mechalel shabbos to prevent their embarrassment?”

    I don’t know exactly how embarrassment factors into p’sak regarding handshaking, but I can offer some conjecture. (1.) According the preponderance of poskim, there is no inherent issur involved in physical contact with a woman – it is dependent on the type of contact and whether it is “derech chiba v’ta’avah.” In a case where the person would be embarrassed if you don’t shake their hand, that concern itself may affect the halachic nature of the handshake given that the circumstances are such that you are only handshaking to avoid the other person being humiliated. As such, such a handshake might not be considered “derech chiba.” (2.) The Taz and the Shach have a fairly meikel view of physical contact. The Shach, for example writes that physical contact is only assur if it is “derech ta’avah v’chibas bi’ah.” It seems like these opinions would mattir handshaking. Perhaps the threat of humiliation justifies following a more lenient opinion. (3.) The Yerushalmi’s consideration of “ain yetzer hara matzui l’sha’ah” is an additional factor that might be relied upon when there is a threat of embarrassing someone. (4.) A non-sakana type of mishoom eivah can override a d’rabanan. In the case of a goyah, she an ervah mid’rabbanan, and therefore lo sikrevu would only be d’rabbanan even l’fi HaRambam. As a result, avoiding embarrassing a goyah might be an additional factor to justify handshaking.

    You can’t violate lavim, but perhaps you can be someich on mitigating factors. Even R’ Ya’akov, who didn’t pasken either way in this case, thought that there MIGHT be a tzad l’hakeil. It is clearly not so poshut.

    #663063

    Joseph
    Participant
    #663064

    Bemused
    Participant

    I give credit to this site; truly a Makom of dignity and Yiras Shomayim.

    I have noticed a significant drop in the overly personal interaction here, and both the site and the posters are due kudos for modifying the tone of their posts and together increasing the quality of a really unique place.

    #663066

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    bemused- thank you for noticing the improvement (instead of bemoaning the improvement needed). We can use some positive reinforcement round here

    ps- I have no idea what gender you are…

    #663067

    cherrybim
    Participant

    TJ said – “I don’t know exactly how embarrassment factors into p’sak regarding handshaking, but I can offer some conjecture. (1.) According the preponderance of poskim, there is no inherent issur involved in physical contact with a woman – it is dependent on the type of contact and whether it is “derech chiba v’ta’avah.” In a case where the person would be embarrassed if you don’t shake their hand, that concern itself may affect the halachic nature of the handshake given that the circumstances are such that you are only handshaking to avoid the other person being humiliated. As such, such a handshake might not be considered “derech chiba.” (2.) The Taz and the Shach have a fairly meikel view of physical contact. The Shach, for example writes that physical contact is only assur if it is “derech ta’avah v’chibas bi’ah.” It seems like these opinions would mattir handshaking. Perhaps the threat of humiliation justifies following a more lenient opinion. (3.) The Yerushalmi’s consideration of “ain yetzer hara matzui l’sha’ah” is an additional factor that might be relied upon when there is a threat of embarrassing someone. (4.) A non-sakana type of mishoom eivah can override a d’rabanan. In the case of a goyah, she an ervah mid’rabbanan, and therefore lo sikrevu would only be d’rabbanan even l’fi HaRambam. As a result, avoiding embarrassing a goyah might be an additional factor to justify handshaking.”


    I have observed frum men in professional settings holding their hands behind their backs when in conversation with women; or holding papers or glasses in one hand while holding a drink in the other thus creating an innocent obstacle to hand shaking.

    I once heard from a Rav and Posek in Flatbush: When a couple adopt an infant and raise the baby as their own; the halacha is that when the child becomes of age, all contact between the father/daughter or mother/son must cease and Yichud issues apply as well. But, says the Rav, no Posek will ever tell them that they must adhere to these rules.

    #663071

    Joseph
    Participant

    ???”? (????? ????? ????? ?:?):?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??, ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????, ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????.

    “Even to speak with her when she is behind a fence is not something we tell him to do. He should die rather than speak to her from behind a fence.”

    This Rambam is talking about even an unmarried woman whom he lusts.

    #663072

    Joseph
    Participant

    cherrybim,

    You are mistaken. There is no such thing as halacha being something is assur, but that “no Posek will ever tell them that they must adhere to these rules.”

    You are also mistaken that “all contact between the father/[adopted] daughter or mother/[adopted] son must cease and Yichud issues apply as well.” The Igros Moshe E.H. 4:64-2 says it is permissible. (Most other poskim disagree with Reb Moshe though.)

    #663073

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Joseph, are you saying that I am mistaken or that the Posek is mistaken in what he said?

    Also, could you rephrase paragraph one; I missed the point.

    #663074

    TJ
    Member

    Joseph wrote: “‘Even to speak with her when she is behind a fence is not something we tell him to do. He should die rather than speak to her from behind a fence.’ This Rambam is talking about even an unmarried woman whom he lusts.”

    The case here is of someone who is sick due to lust for a particular woman, and the doctors say that he can only survive if he gives into his lust by conversing with her. There are two opinions in the gemara from which this halacha is based. (1.) Chazal were talking about an eishes ish. (2.) Chazal were talking about even an unmarried woman.

    According to the first opinion, it would be possible to say that the reason is that it is stam a case of “yehareg v’al ya’avor” due to abizraihu of arayos. However, according to the second opinion, that cannot be a factor. The reason why chazal wouldn’t permit an unmarried woman to be used in such a manner was so that B’nos Yisrael wouldn’t be treated as hefker – as some sort of object available to cure men of lust. Treating women like that would ultimately contribute to a proliferation of pritzus in society. (There is also a concern for p’gam mishpacha).

    The Rambam quoted by Joseph paskened like the second opinion.

    #663075

    Jothar
    Member

    Clearly touching a woman shelo bederech chiba is permitted, or else all of the “Vaad Hatznius” gangs would be out of business.

    #663077

    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Moshe specifically said in his teshuvas that handshaking is derech chiba. I quoted the three Igros Moshe’s in a previous post.

    #663079

    Jothar
    Member

    So I guess beating a woman and knocking off her sheitel as a member of a vaad hatznius is not considered derech chibah.

    #663080

    Joseph
    Participant

    Jothar: The Gedolim have called for the establishment of Vaadei HaTznius.

    AUDIO & PHOTOS: Thousands Attend Lakewood’s Tznius Asifa

    AUDIO: Thousands of Women Attend Lakewood’s Tznius Asifa

    The Rosh Yeshiva’s Shlita stated we need a Vaad Hatznius. You can listen to the audio on YWN of the Lakewood Tznius Asifa. In the fututre restrain yourself from referring to the holy work of the vaad hatznius, under the guidance of the Gedolim (whom you seem not to trust) as “gangs”. A little Emunas Chachomim would do your neshama a lot of good.

    Don’t believe the sheker and loshon hora on the blogs and Israeli media about those that engage in this Avodei HaKodesh. Instead of reading these “sheker reports”, put your trust in the Torah leaders of Klal Yisroel.

    #663082

    Jothar
    Member

    I put my trust in the gedolim. I just don’t believe that vaad hatznius as beating up women is what the gedolim had in mind. Furthermore, what heter is there to beat up a woman, if most poskim hold negiah is assur? I’m not saying one has to tolerate breaches of Tznius. But I doubt Rav Matisyahu solomon meant beating up people. The chazon Ish ZT”L was bothered by chillul shabbos more than anybody, but referred to terrorism of mechallelei shabbos as “yedei eisav”. Please don’t confuse real vaadei tznius with thuggery.

    #663084

    anonymisss
    Participant

    Jothar, you are 100% correct. Those people are doing something wrong. We have to understand that what they’re doing is looked down upon by our leaders and the majority of our society. We cannot, however, make generalizations based on those who are doing the wrong thing.

    ~a~

    #663085

    Joseph
    Participant

    ahavas yisroel chinum, this is the thread you are seeking.

    #663086

    Joseph, As you so rightly assume, I like you, & I agree with you, but after reading through most of the posts, I have to say, I will not get into bringing M’koirois for everything although there are many more to bring down, where it states very clearly the Isur of shaking hands, simply because you’ll never finish arguing with the ones that are looking to do it! I also don’t want to get personal with anyone. But I do have a few comments, 1)Please be careful with your choise of words as they could be misunderstood, like your allowed to embarrass a Goi, I know what you meant, but some might not. Now I’m writing to everyone, 2)It’s not hard to get a Heter today for anything from a “Rav”, including women Davening for the Omud or worse things that I do not want to mention. 3)When the words “reportedly” are used about a P’sak, I’m dumbfounded. 4) Let’s not forget the G’morah on V’yad L’yad Loi Yinokeh, or, Hamistakel B’etzbah K’tanoh Shel Ishoh, and even if it is Muter,what about V’asu S’yug Latoirah? 5) To say women are differant, Chas V’sholoim, if anything, they are worse,(again I’m not getting into bringing referencess or the words written), 6) Who are they afraid to embarrass, the other person? NO! rather “themselves” 7)I have a huge house Boruch Hashem full of guest at all times & I have a list of rules outside the door that includes quite a few on Hilchois Tz’ni’us & no one has yet had a problem with it or gotten embarrassed. Please, I don’t want anyone to think that I am a Fannatic, I’m not! Most of my house is full of people that are not Chassidish or Yeshivish, also see what an impression I give, on the topic of “when parents don’t want a Shidduch”, Avol, Yikoiv Hadin Es Hohor, V’al Yisbayesh Mipnai Hamal’igim Olov Ba’avoidasoi Yisborach Sh’moi, applies by both posts, even if 1 sounds as if it’s from the right & the other as if from the left

    #663087

    Jax
    Member

    ahavas yisroel chinum: on behalf of the CR Board & CR gang, I welcome you to the Grand CR! Please read from the start of this thread!

    #663088

    First: The moderators are on top of the actual content of the post. Secondly, the fact that the moderators don’t let you exchange names/email addresses/locations means that it’s not possible for the two to meet. If that’s not good enough, what is?

    #663089

    I did read everything before writing. 1) as to Bas 20 K’bas 120, please see the Rambam & Shulchun Oruch, regarding a man looking @ a old or a most disgusting women. 2) mod-42, where do you take it from that when a man walks on the street and a women passes the opposite way that he’s allowed to greet her? 3) Has everyone forgotten the the Posuk Ayeih Soroh Ishtecho? 4) It also says Al Tarbeh Sichoh Im Ho’ishoh, not Im Ishoh, for a very good reason. 5)Not calling married people of the other gender by their first names is not just a custom. 6) V’hoyoh Machanecho Kodoish is a D’oiraiso.

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 210 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.