July 1, 2012 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #603951
I recently became aware that Target is selling Pride (for toaviah) merchandise.
I don’t want to support Target corp. after reading this and I figured I should let other people know in case they feel the same way.July 1, 2012 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #884594
I suggest before you buy any fashionable clothes to investigate if the designer is straight or not i mean you do not want to support them after all right?July 1, 2012 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #884595
First of all I don’t do investigations.
As a consumer I don’t care about the personal choices someone may make for themselves.
However here is a company that is trying to promote social policies that are immoral in my view and in the view of many people.
I prefer to take my business elsewhere.July 1, 2012 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #884596
So you have no problem enriching someone who you believe to be living an immoral lifestyle? that seems contradictory.July 1, 2012 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #884597shmoelMember
If I knew a designer or merchant engaged in, or supported, immorality, I certainly would avoid patronizing such people and retailers.July 1, 2012 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #884598yaakov doeParticipant
If you look into it, you’ll find that many businesses contribute to causes that offend us. I assume that your posting will have no effect on the frum women who shope at Target.July 1, 2012 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #884599
Goq: There is a difference between
1)patronizing a store where the owner is not living up to your moral standards.
2)A store that is actively promoting an immoral (in my view )lifestyle.
For example I could care less about the married life of the CEO or board members of Walmart, but if Walmart would actively promote infidelity in their store, I and lot of people would be turned off.July 1, 2012 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #884600
The OP was just trying to inform us so that we can make our own decisions, and have all the information. I love target but this does make me very uncomfortable. Yes many many many designers are homosexuals, I would venture a guess that most male designers are, or so it seems in the fashion magazines that I read (once in a blue moon). There is a difference between that.. And between a corporation vocally support something such as this and announcing that all proceeds from a specific line is going to a group that also supports it. Now I would not be someone who is going to purchase a rainbow pride sweatshirt or whatever that are selling, but I may think twice about giving my business to target henceforth.July 1, 2012 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #884601YatzmichMember
If you’re boycotting Target because your consience wont allow it, I hear.
If you’re trying to hurt Target by suggesting that all frum Jews not shop there, believe me, the frum business is not even a drop in the bucket for them.July 1, 2012 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #884602BrooklinebornParticipant
There are many companies that have clothes made by children and participate in child labor practices. Others companies where money is laundered and hire undocumented personnel to work in the factory and do not pay even minimum wage. We all make individual choices.
Target also sells clothing that promotes sports teams, they sell pink for breast cancer clothes. Target may support causes that you support also.
Some CEO force their employees to break the law in the name of profit and some companies support causes that may not be your politics.
You have a choice how to spend your money and what to support, including where we give donations or where our stocks are.July 1, 2012 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #884603
Niazik, sefer Devorim perek chof he posuk 16 also describes immoral business practices as Toeivah. So does Mishlei in perek chof. I wonder, do you intend to investigate every place you buy things to make sure they are (never mind supporting, but) not actively engaged in toeivah themselves? If not, aren’t you being a bit hypocritical?July 1, 2012 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #884604zahavasdadParticipant
We should boycott Exxon-Mobile because they get their oil from Saudi Arabia who gives their money to Wahabis who kill Jews
We should boycott many Supermarkets because they “toivah” (Lobsters, Shrimp and Crab)
And so onJuly 2, 2012 1:03 am at 1:03 am #884605
I don’t get gas from “Arab stations”. Years ago my family researched which stations get gas from there and we do not fill up our tanks there or atleast we try not to. And there is a difference between boycotting every single place that may or may not employ or support toeiva but the message target came out with loud and clear, that they are giving all the proceeds to the cause etc is different. Not that everyone should boycott target, it is a personal choice for people. Frankly target is a fantastic store that carries everything i can think of. But some people after reading what the OP said may not feel comfortable giving them further business.July 2, 2012 2:04 am at 2:04 am #884606seeallsidesParticipant
I think we are giving the OP a hard time – I agree that it should be known that they are specifically supporting this way of life by promoting their merchandise and that it is very different than a designer choosing his personal lifestyle – let’s face it-most designers are not role models.
I agree that this should and will make me think twice before shopping at Target and hopefully if enough people make that decision, it will make a dent.July 2, 2012 2:14 am at 2:14 am #884607zahavasdadParticipant
Plenty of Frum Jews sell Amway. The owners of Amway are evangelical Christians who want to convert everyone and use their amway fortune to acvhieve that goalJuly 2, 2012 3:26 am at 3:26 am #884608
yichusdik: If a company would sell merchandise promoting thieving and robbery i.e.
“Proud to belong to the mafia” t shirts, almost everyone would be turned off.July 2, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #884609
Niazik – They also hire very openly Toieva males. It’s a sick store. Almost everytime I walk in there -I come out empty-handed.
Either they don’t have what I want or they are overpriced.
I manage with Walmart, Kmart, Lowes, Home Depot & Best Buy.
Kohls is good for Shmahtes. There is absolutely nothing you can’t find in these other stores. I think people are obsessed with Target because of the way they set the stores up -everything in red. People are attracted to fancy displays.July 2, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #884610
Zahavasdad, stop it! There is a difference between treif food and gilui arayos!July 2, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #884611
Niazik im sure walmart sells rap cds which promote crime and mistreatment of women.July 2, 2012 3:56 am at 3:56 am #884612
About the gas stations — I already try to do that.July 2, 2012 4:36 am at 4:36 am #884613
Niazik, that wasn’t my point, and you know it! My point is, torah describes something as Toeivah, you have something against toeivah, you do something about it. Fine. But why such vigilance on this toeivah, and none on the one kind of toeivah that I guarantee more businesses are guilty of simply by virtue of being businesses, not just “supporting” a different toeivah. (btw, the issur is in the act, not even in identifying oneself as such). So you are making a case for boycotting a store that makes a political statement of support for the rights of those who contravene an issur for Jews and likely (shevah mitzvos bnei noach probably applies) non Jews too.
I guess my point is that your choice, which is personal and you are certainly entitled to it, is a political and social one, not a religious one. Don’t fool yourself into justifying your actions religiously, because halocho doesn’t require you to do this.
Further, my other point is that you are displaying a lack of consistency if you are using Torah terms like toeivah. If the torah description is what motivates you, act likewise towards other toeivahs. if you are motivated by your social and political perspective, say so, and I would have no taine about inconsistency or hypocrisy.July 2, 2012 6:35 am at 6:35 am #884614YW Moderator-18Moderator
Health, many of us are from Brooklyn where we do not have many of the stores you list. Target is one of the few department stores we have.July 2, 2012 9:44 am at 9:44 am #884615BrooklinebornParticipant
There are also Targets in the east coast that have separate Kosher dairy cases. Though the choice is limited, it has been a lifesaver to get something to eat off the highway when I have not had my own in the car. They also sell fruit so you can get a quick bite if you are stuck or traveling in an area without a lot of kosher choices in a pinchJuly 2, 2012 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #884616
yichusdik: I use the term Toeivah because I prefer to speak biloshon nikoyon (clean speech) and what it’s frequently used in our circles.
I don’t know of any stores that actively promote stealing as a virtue. Here target is actively promoting a social issue that’s goes against many peoples values. The point isn’t whether they are doing something that I believe is ossur.
You are right that it is a social issue but that doesn’t make any difference. Many social values come from religious values. I never said that it’s forbidden by religion to shop at target (however it might be a question in hashkafah).July 2, 2012 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #884617
That’s true I forgot about the fact that they do carry a lot of kosher items.July 2, 2012 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #884618
Mod -18 -“Health, many of us are from Brooklyn where we do not have many of the stores you list. Target is one of the few department stores we have.”
I decided to research it for you. You have 2 Kmarts in Manhattan, at least 1 in Queens, & 2 in Staten Island.
Lowes – you have 2 in Brooklyn – 1 in Kings Plaza and the other downtown Brooklyn @ 118 2nd Ave. (Gowanus).
You also have a Best Buy & a Kohls in Brooklyn on Bay Pkwy. past the Highway by the water (right past Bensonhurst).July 2, 2012 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #884619
yichusdik – “I guess my point is that your choice, which is personal and you are certainly entitled to it, is a political and social one, not a religious one. Don’t fool yourself into justifying your actions religiously, because halocho doesn’t require you to do this.”
This I believe is wrong. (Disclaimer – I’m only going with what the OP wrote – I didn’t check it out myself.)
The OP wrote -“I recently became aware that Target is selling Pride (for toaviah) merchandise.”
Now, he doesn’t specify whether these products are labeled as such. If they are, there definitely would be an Issur in buying them because all the money is going towards the Toeiva agenda.
Other products in the store would be Muttar to purchase.
If the product(s) aren’t labeled as such – then any product in the store becomes a Sofek. This could very well be a problem in Halacha. So his warning is Apropos!July 2, 2012 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #884620Sam2Participant
Niazik: Just curious, but what makes “Toeivah” a Lashon Nekiyah? The Gemara says that the word Tamei is a (relatively) not-Naki word (Pesachim 7, maybe).July 2, 2012 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #884621
If the product(s) aren’t labeled as such – then any product in the store becomes a Sofek. This could very well be a problem in Halacha. So his warning is Apropos!
Haha. Yeah right.July 2, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #884622
Sam the lesson I learned from the gemara is to minimize saying not pure things. Tamei is not naki relative to tahor. Toaviah(imho) is better than calling it by it’s name and it’s commonly used word in frum circles.July 2, 2012 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #884624nfgo3Member
MorahRach’s second posting tells us she does not get gas from “Arab stations”. If you live in the Northeast, e.g., New York, practically every drop of gasoline is from Arabs, no matter who the retailer is.July 2, 2012 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #884625YatzmichMember
Buy gas from BP. They don’t buy mideast oil.July 2, 2012 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #884626
Since you are calling me out I will inform you that citgo and lukoil do not import oil from the middle easy. Ofcourse it would be nearly impossible to never get oil sold by the Arabs but I said I try my best.July 2, 2012 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #884627
Morah Rach, Citgo is owned by the Chavez regime in Venezuela and uses Venezuelan oil. They are allies with Iran, allow the Iranians to use bases in their country, the government has launched anti Semitic and anti Israel tirades in the government controlled press, and their agenda is virulently anti American.
Lukoil is Russian, derived from the state oil companies that broke up on the dissolution of the USSR. Its president is the former soviet deputy minister of oil production and it is the single largest taxpayer to Putin’s regime. Given Putin’s support for Syria and Iran, and given the general nastiness of many Russian “business practices”, I’d be just as reluctant to buy their oil as I would Arab oil.
If you are trying your best, you might want to go with an electric car, because these choices are all bad ones.July 3, 2012 3:20 am at 3:20 am #884628
Yichusdik, drei nit ken kup, please! The toeivah, the OP is talking about, is more chomur than other toeivos. It is poshut.July 3, 2012 7:43 am at 7:43 am #884629
yitayningwut -“Haha. Yeah right.”
What’s this sneer/sarcasm about?
I doubt that they don’t label it, but if they don’t – then every product would be a Sofek Issur. Because buying something that 100% is going for Toeiva is Zichur Ossur.
You claim to be the Mumcha in Taarovos. This is Kevuah and it’s Kmechzta Oomechtza Domi. Did you say “Yeah right” for everything that didn’t jive with you when you learnt SA?July 3, 2012 8:04 am at 8:04 am #884630
Not sure why you felt the need to go and do all of that research to try and prove your point. I didn’t say there was a fantastic solution to buying non Arab oil, I just said that is the conscious effort that I make. The discussion here is about target and if after what the OP stated, one thinks it is morally a good idea to still give them business. Stop trying to turn this into a bitter war about who knows more than who.July 3, 2012 11:45 am at 11:45 am #884631kfbParticipant
I’m definitely not shopping at target again!
And I get my gas from the keystone pipeline, oh wait Obama messed up hard on that one!July 3, 2012 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #884632
MorahRach, didn’t run to do research. Was already known to me. And I don’t have a bone to pick with you, sorry I gave that impression.
Also, unlike some other topics, where my feelings are very strong, I don’t have any “skin in the game” on this one, as where I live there are no Target stores (will be in a few months, though), and I’m not up in arms about the Pride agenda one way or another. My perspective on it is that IF we want to enjoy the freedoms and tolerance that a democratic state gives us, we have to abide by its laws and assume that everyone deserves the same freedom and tolerance as we do, even those whose lifestyle we reject.
But I am certainly against Pride parades all of which, from what I can tell, are simply a public display of hedonism and half clad celebrants (or less), much less about identity and much more about flaunting public undress, drunkenness and lascivious behaviour that I would find incompatible with use of public space regardless of the orientation of the marchers.July 3, 2012 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #884633
MDD, please, tell me, do you daven a different R’ Yishmoel Omer than I do every morning? Because my understanding is that when the same loshon is used in separate places you make a gezeira shova. It is poshutMaybe instead of looking to improve already high-standard tznius every time there is a tragedy in the community and we are looking for reasons why, we should instead look to see how our community is dealing with the Toeivah of corrupt business practices.July 3, 2012 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #884634
Health – From a strictly halachic point of view there is no issue whatsoever. The issue would be Lifnei Iver, and you are too many steps removed from the actual issur for this to apply. See Avodah Zarah 14a and Shulchan Aruch YD 151:1 with the first Pischei Teshuva.July 3, 2012 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #884635
Guess I don’t know how to link properly.July 3, 2012 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #884636
I believe all products are clearly recognized as pride products i.e. t shirt with rainbow design and only purchases from these products will the money go for the Toeivah organizationsJuly 3, 2012 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #884637
Yichusdik, you must be joking? Right? The toeiva of mishkav zochur carries a chiyuv missa with it, and it is yehareg ve’lo’ya’avor! Other toeyvos are not like that. Mishkav zochur is assur even for non-Yidden!July 3, 2012 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #884638
Plus, you may not make a gzera shavah unless you have a mesorah for it, and you are a Tanna (maybe, an Amora).July 3, 2012 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #884639
And you, MDD, don’t sit on a beis din capable of meting out a sentence, and there’s no edus or hasro’oh, so the comparative punishments are pretty much moot in this discussion. Besides, you CAN actually do something about the business corruption toeivah, while it is impossible to ensure no one is committing the other toeivah unless you are surveilling them 24/7. Concentrate on what you can affect, not what you can’t.July 3, 2012 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #884640CsarMember
yichusdik: Don’t be foolish. Perhaps murder isn’t so bad, since the death penalty is rarely applied due to a lack of two witnesses who gave advance warning and the perpertarator committed it in front of them post-warning. Right.
Mishkav zochor is in the same category as murder. Both are death penalty crimes.
If there were a Murderers Day Pride March or a Adulterers Day Pride March, apparently you’d support it the same as you support the feigelech. After all, you never witnessed the murder or adultery.July 3, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #884641JaneDoe18Participant
The practice of Mishkav Zochor is worse than murder.
Murder kills the body, but the soul lives on.
The practice of Mishkav Zochor murders the souls that come with the man’s seed.July 3, 2012 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #884642
Mishkav zochor is in the same category as murder. Both are death penalty crimes.
By that logic, murdering one person and murdering a million people are in the same category as well.July 4, 2012 12:00 am at 12:00 am #884643Josh31Participant
“is in the same category as murder.”
The prescribed penalty is not the only dimension in which sins are categorized.
With Murder there is a much greater obligation for Bais Din to prevent and investigate. The Mitzvah of “Egla Arufa” teaches this.
With Murder there is a penalty of Exile (until the High priest dies) for non intentional violations. With other sins a sacrifice of a lamb or kid will suffice.
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