Teachers salaries

That is the issue. They are leaving. This is not a positive. Obviously you feel education and chinuch is fake and unimportant so you don’t care.

” Obviously you feel education and chinuch is fake and unimportant so you don’t care.”

yes, i have gotten that impression from some of his other posts as well

Unfortunately women’s education is devalued. It was devalued, if not prohibited, over a century ago, and we paid the price.

The problem isn’t just finding experienced teachers; it’s finding teachers who are inherently talented. In other words, they are “born teachers.” They have the right personality, charisma, intellect, etc., to conduct a classroom.

Many post-seminary girls, no matter how sweet and earnest, are not cut out for teaching. They might view it as simply an interim job before marriage, or something “respectable” in their community. I’ve watched some of them reading off their own notes from high school or some Artscroll book. They were clueless as to class age, level, composite, etc.

You get what you pay for. If you want to treat professionals like garbage, don’t complain about the amateurs you end up hiring — or the girls who end up leaving the fold because of neglect and cynicism.

The answer to my question is that they don’t have it, so see: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2045128/ambitious-torah-umesorah-raising-25-million-to-assist-in-raising-teacher-salaries.html

See also https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2045022/mailbag-should-a-yeshiva-or-bais-yaakov-be-a-private-business.html

I thought the conundrum goes like this.

A good techer is generally one that can teach year after year. Meaning, that the school is set in that Mrs. X teaches fifth grade and we do not need to even think of who would replace her. As well as her teaching methods are not stuck in a certain time period.

Therefore, teachers pay starts of small. Because they do not want to incentive teaching as a year by year career. It is better if there is growth by staying in one school.

Also, unqualified teachers will not be able to try it just for the money.

Schools have the ability to not raise the teachers after a certain point, because they would have to start over in different school at a lower pay. Though I have been told that this is an exception.

But this is old hoc.

I hear that the problem now is just a shortage of interested teachers. Every business is short on good candidates, and education is no different.

Good teachers are not fungible. Many teachers give their lives to their students and work 24/7. The education they give to our children, including the love for Torah and Missvot, is priceless. I can’t say for sure because I don’t really know how much they are paid, but from what I’ve heard it isn’t enough to sustain a decent living standards. Salaries should not be subsidized, but organizations that provide rabbanim and morot with what will help lighten their burden out of sincere appreciation and immense gratitude each and every parent should have are truly doing a huge Chesed to the teachers and the parents who can now show that appreciation by giving to these causes.

Many of the really outstanding “educators” (versus teachers) in our yeshivos and beis yaakovs were older and considering retirement even before Covid. After 2 years of dealing with Covid (often w/o the resources and support provided in more affluent schools) they are leaving in record numbers and generally replaced by younger, less experienced teachers. The system is over-extended and the quality of instruction will suffer. Too many yeshivos, too much duplication of physical facilities and excess administrative overhead, too little focus on training and instructional skills. As someone noted above, entry level teachers are viewed almost as an afterthought as a fungible commodity rather than being the core focus of our yiddeshe mosdos.

> Many teachers give their lives to their students and work 24/7.

I find this more true for the (way) older generation, either because of the harder times they grew up, or maybe just because of natural selection and only great teachers stayed in profession that long. Among younger ones, I see (often, not all of course) more pragmatic interests – feed the family, spend reasonable time/effort, this is the only job she is qualified to do… This may be in part as the only challenges of latest generations were such (pre-covid) or maybe, it is just a phase and they’ll grow up, I don’t know.

AAQ – please tell me the truth, how many schools have you “researched” to come up with this? Same as GH, you speak (not always so kindly) about the schools and their system and you can’t be speaking about more than 2 or maybe 3. Keep in mind your grand plans may not apply in any way to the other hundreds

I agree. My opinion was formed based on my experience with my own children (whose teachers were mostly young btw) who are really moser nefesh for their students. I imagine that teachers usually do not do it for the money…. But some other here feel like some young people just need something to do so they become teachers. I don’t see the draw but who knows..

Syag, beyond personal experiences, I researched all local frum and even modern schools, and heard from other people about other places. I spoke with a number of Rabbis and teachers both working in those schools and those who were just customers. I do understand that my knowledge is limited, of course. My suggestions are based what I know of halakhic approaches, and you are welcome to bring your own knowledge also. If you are not denying that halakha wants unlimited competition between teachers and all that is implied by that, then the question is how exactly this should be applied.

(while the husbands learn in kollel)

We all know how much you hate Kollel, but what does it have to do with this discussion?

user176 > I imagine that teachers usually do not do it for the money

This is true – and one wonderful principal frankly said exactly these words about the teachers she hires … What I see, though, in latest couple of generations is that there are too many people who have no other work options except chinuch, due to their own education. When they grow up, some of them discover passion for teaching and others – do not, but they are expected to go into chinuch. [ Maybe in some larger communities, they can go work for some “frum” businesses who will not be afraid to hire and teach them the business]. So, they go and do the best of it, without much passion.
In some elementary schools, you have one main teacher for at least half-a-day. So, if you get an inappropriate teacher for a kid for the whole year, it is difficult. The fact that the last year teacher was a tzadekes is not helping at that moment… Here is where free market could help. Quoting a Rav who told me of a conversation he had with a principal:
– would you know already who is going to teach 5th grade this year?
– Hashem will help
– So, He will be holding my tuition check for now

I can’t tell if you are anti frum or just a bigot.

I’ll be dan l’kaf z’chus that he’s just drunk.

The reason this isn’t a simple “supply and demand” issue is because a good Jewish education is not a luxury item.

In many countries, items such as basic food, housing, and medical care are subsidized and don’t completely fit in to the supply and demand model.

Without more “government subsidies” (philanthropy), the schools cannot provide the superior product which we do not consider a luxury, so following the regular rules of supply and demand, which leaves the schools staffed by inexperienced and underskilled teachers.

DY > In many countries, items such as basic food, housing, and medical care are subsidized

Right, Cubans do! OK, EU does it too. But notice that the most basic products are provided by the market, starting with food. Yes, there are subsidies but, as much as possible, they should not distort the market. Thus, foodstamps and vouchers are preferred solutions.

So, what happens when you provide direct funding to schools? You give more power to school administrators. You hope they’ll pay the best teachers more. But what if they pay their friends more? What if their understanding of what makes a good teacher is not perfect?

Why not have a combination of parents and _independent_ Rabbis/chinuch experts provide additional funding to best teachers directly? The funding will follow the teacher to another school or if he starts his own class.

Ujm, are you saying that it should scale based on income – that rich people should give a higher percentage of their income than others? Where do we find that? Chazal say to give 1/5, or just 1/10 for maaser kesafim.

I was close to a certain tzadik who was not rich, but ended up on the list of gevirim that meshulachim would visit. He said that he ends every month with about 1/5 left of all the money he makes from his positions in kashrus and his being a rosh yeshiva. I’m not mentioning his name because he didn’t want it to be publicized.

Dear Avirah,

In EY it may be hard to distinguish kollel from typical Judaism. But the USA models are about klei kodesh or Torah Lishma. It’s mildly insulting to insist that kollel is intended to fill a mere knowledge gap.

Dear Thelittle,

Two things about kollel wives supporting their families. It is generally only a serious burden after five or six years of marriage. A large amount of men are leaving or already have left kollel by then.

And, you post about making kollel more exclusive. I guess the reality is that there are more willing potential kollel wives, than future kollel members.

Avira
Lol at your previous post, I love it when you make stuff up “currently a great number of those who claim to want to follow rebbe yishmoel go off entirely or partially in trying to do so” In this one you are flat out arguing on the Gemara which says almost the opposite

Good stuff.

Two points that seem to have been ignored in this thread.

1) Hours.
teachers work much fewer hours than most. Typically half a day ( yes plus an hour for phonecalls grading papers etc). Early dismissal Fridays. Not to mention summer off.

Plus there schedule is built around their kid’s with off during kids breaks winter, Chanuka etc. Fridays in the winter are less of a stress.

It is not reasonable to argue that “well in an office job I would make 15 K more” – which is what a recent “viral letter” said comparing Apples and Oranges.

Of course if after you chesban all the extra hours ? babysitting and still feel that working almost double the hours (including summers and full days instead of half) is to your benefit for the extra 15 K, then go for it chayecha kodem. but to just compare Teaching to a much more time intensive job doesn’t make sense.

2) tuition breaks
A even bigger point is tuition breaks. As far as I’m aware most schools offer their faculty tuition breaks, The ones I’m aware are half off.
One of the popular local girl schools in my area charges 12 K per kid. A teacher with 3 girls in the school saves 18K a year. To make that extra 18K Before taxes she would need 25 K (guesstimating).

now granted this depends on how many kids faculty member has, and of what gender. Though solutions could be easily worked out (if there was such desire) between schools that could give vouchers recognized by the other.

In short teachers pay is commensurate to the far fewer hours they work compared to most.
When you include tuition breaks it far exceeds most similar level fields

Avira > currently a great number of those who claim to want to follow rebbe yishmoel go off entirely or partially in trying to do so, while almost none of their learning counterparts do.

This is the danger, and it was surely happening across the board 100 years ago. I am not convinced that this is the case now, though.

Judging from your writing about “MO”, you are usually talking about people who were not/not very observant to begin with. I see a lot of observant young professionals who went to MO schools and had observant parents. When I see a parent a child together, they see to be on average equally learned – in some cases, the father is more learned, in some cases, the son. I, of course, do not see those who do not come, but my impression is that those from MO/community schools who come from observant parents stay that way, and those who were sent there to be in a private Jewish school also stay that way, sometimes being more observant than parents. Does not mean there is no downwards pressure – I heard from such parents about pressure to be less tzanua and go to Ivy League instead of more Jewishly appropriate schools, but many seem to withstand the pressure.

Ubiq; teaching is probably the most time consuming job possible – you always take your work home with you, and spend hours preparing…you don’t just walk in like a regular 9-5 job, do your work, come home to a supper, daven up a daf yomi and fo to bed.

Due to the low pay, having the sunmer “off” is quite far from a vacation; all rebbeim have to take summer jobs.

I’d much rather a system where rebbeim have to work in, say curriculum development over the summer and get paid decently than the way things are now.

If anything, it’s your post that is entirely making things up, casting chinuch as an east street profession – I find it insulting as someone who is in the trenches, constantly dealing with parents, lesson plans, grading, planning events and much more.

What I said isn’t “against the gemara” any more than is the cherem of rabbeinu gershom – yeridas hadoros happens, practicality has to be changed to reach the same goals. You’re probably fine with women learning gemara because “times change” even though the gemara is against it – there it’s changing not lishma, and here it’s changing as ais laasos lasehm heferu torasecha.

AAQ; most who go to work don’t go off, but a significant amount do, and a much bigger amount have a yeridah. It’s kind of the opposite of the situation of the gemara; yechidim can stay very strong while working, while most develop spiritual deficiencies – of course they were already having problems, but being in kolel would have held them back from many things. I’m talking about what I’ve seen happen to my friends who left Yeshiva early – I’m not talking at all about yungeleit who go to work after 5 years in kolel; almost all of such people I know of turned out fine, albeit a drop less idealistic.