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- This topic has 81 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 2 months ago by Always_Ask_Questions.
December 27, 2021 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #2045169
In a free market economy, teachers willingly enter into a contract to provide a service in return for a salary. If teachers feal they arent bring paid enough, then they are free to negotiate or find a better paying job.
So subsidizing teachers salaries sounds like nonsense to me.
Realistcly the future of חינוך is seminary girls and part time help.December 27, 2021 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #2045236RockyParticipant
It sounds logical but guess what: it’s not working. Ask any school administrator anywhere in the country if there is a shortage from both Male and Female teachers.
Secondly your suggestion of hiring cheap labor means that you will get what you pay for. Perhaps in a factory in China it pays to hires unskilled labor to install widgets but if you wanted dedicated professionals to teach your kids and grandkids it will cost.
This leaves only two sources for the money, philanthropists, higher tuitions or both.December 27, 2021 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2045237thinkingclearlyParticipant
That is the issue. They are leaving. This is not a positive. Obviously you feel education and chinuch is fake and unimportant so you don’t care.December 27, 2021 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #2045238
Yep. Free market. If salaries are too low, the teachers will look for jobs elsewhere. And chinuch for girls, elementary, high school, and seminary will be conducted by single girls recently graduated from the seminaries. You won’t find experienced teachers willing to work for wages that contribute nothing to their tafkid to raise their families (while the husbands learn in kollel). Is that what you want to see happen to girls’ education? There are forces here that contribute to the direction of the “free market”. The problem is not simple or small, and dismissing it out of hand is not smart.December 27, 2021 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #2045244
” Obviously you feel education and chinuch is fake and unimportant so you don’t care.”
yes, i have gotten that impression from some of his other posts as wellDecember 27, 2021 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #2045259
“….chinuch for girls, elementary, high school, and seminary will be conducted by single girls recently graduated from the seminaries. You won’t find experienced teachers willing to work for wages that contribute nothing to their tafkid to raise their families..”
Perhaps their husbands will realize that THEIR task is to support their families so they can afford to send their kids to good schools with qualified teachers.
slanderous comment editedDecember 27, 2021 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2045270MaidofCHParticipant
Unfortunately women’s education is devalued. It was devalued, if not prohibited, over a century ago, and we paid the price.
The problem isn’t just finding experienced teachers; it’s finding teachers who are inherently talented. In other words, they are “born teachers.” They have the right personality, charisma, intellect, etc., to conduct a classroom.
Many post-seminary girls, no matter how sweet and earnest, are not cut out for teaching. They might view it as simply an interim job before marriage, or something “respectable” in their community. I’ve watched some of them reading off their own notes from high school or some Artscroll book. They were clueless as to class age, level, composite, etc.
You get what you pay for. If you want to treat professionals like garbage, don’t complain about the amateurs you end up hiring — or the girls who end up leaving the fold because of neglect and cynicism.December 27, 2021 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #2045282
Why does not supply (merit) and demand determine the salary?December 27, 2021 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #2045285
The answer to my question is that they don’t have it, so see: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2045128/ambitious-torah-umesorah-raising-25-million-to-assist-in-raising-teacher-salaries.htmlDecember 27, 2021 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #2045272
Well, שתיקה, if you read the posts than you know that I feal the being honest about an issue is more productive than platitudes.
But I understand the criticism that I havent offered anything consgructive. However I’ll have to preface it with some more hard truths.
The current model relies on בעלי בתים with business experience to support מחנחים in administering מוסדות. The suggestion that בעלי בתים are somehow leaching the system is ludicrous. Simply put, Kollel doesnt teach anyone how to manage multi million dollar budgets, navigate government programs, or supply the contacts to support the kind of philanthropy a typical girls school needs to stay afloat. Hiring a CEO would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, but most of these בעלי בתים do it for free. The assumption that if some דעת תורה was in control to stop the בעלי בתים from siphoning off funds then teachers salaries would be increased is much more offensive then my “tone”.
That being said, בעלי בתים are treating teachers like employees. And right now, they have the advantage. Most teachers who choose to teach למידי קודש are dedicated to חינוך, and arent going to just leave and teach in public school or find a job in the public sector. And if one does leave, there is a line of seminary girls willing to take their place.
A subsidy isnt going to change that.
These schools rely on donors who are very interested in how their money is spent. They are willing to spend $120,000 to attract a big name to be the “dean” of the school. They arent willing to spend more than the going rate to attract a teacher that is completely fungible.
You either need to change how מיסדות are run, to be less if a community institution and more like a “prep school”, that focuses on the values of parents, with the attendant higher tuitions, or it gets to the point where teachers are no longer willing to work for the מצוה, and are willing to stick up for themselves.December 27, 2021 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #2045305December 27, 2021 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #2045316
Reb E, the links can’t replace your own glittering insights, spoken in your own irreplaceable vernacular.December 27, 2021 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #2045334
I thought the conundrum goes like this.
A good techer is generally one that can teach year after year. Meaning, that the school is set in that Mrs. X teaches fifth grade and we do not need to even think of who would replace her. As well as her teaching methods are not stuck in a certain time period.
Therefore, teachers pay starts of small. Because they do not want to incentive teaching as a year by year career. It is better if there is growth by staying in one school.
Also, unqualified teachers will not be able to try it just for the money.
Schools have the ability to not raise the teachers after a certain point, because they would have to start over in different school at a lower pay. Though I have been told that this is an exception.
But this is old hoc.
I hear that the problem now is just a shortage of interested teachers. Every business is short on good candidates, and education is no different.December 27, 2021 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #2045337
I actually agree with you. The hiusbands should be working and supporting their homes and families. It should not be the job of the wife/mother. The stark reality is that you wpould seek to eliminate the kollel as a fixture for all young marrieds. I do believe that kollel should be far more restricted for those who would succed in the present and future from the kollel learning. For the other huge majority, they should have resources to continue to be koveya ittim while working (and/or training for a career). But I do not anticipate find much change here, and will acquiesce to accepting the status quo. So husbands will not be doing the working or earning. And keeping their wives on meager wages is untenable.December 27, 2021 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #2045345user176Participant
Good teachers are not fungible. Many teachers give their lives to their students and work 24/7. The education they give to our children, including the love for Torah and Missvot, is priceless. I can’t say for sure because I don’t really know how much they are paid, but from what I’ve heard it isn’t enough to sustain a decent living standards. Salaries should not be subsidized, but organizations that provide rabbanim and morot with what will help lighten their burden out of sincere appreciation and immense gratitude each and every parent should have are truly doing a huge Chesed to the teachers and the parents who can now show that appreciation by giving to these causes.December 27, 2021 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #2045355RockyParticipant
There is a teacher shortage in the public schools too. It could be attributed to a lot of factors but the bottom line is that the issue of supply and demand is simply not raising the salaries for either Moros or Rabbeim. The schools feel like they can’t win. The parents scream bloody murder if tuitions go up and there is only so much cash in the pot. So the schools try to pay as little as they can get away with but the Rabbeim and Moros say that I still need a liveable salary. They don’t care if you tell them how much they get paid per hour. They need to pay their bills.
Soooo… the boys work selling on Amazon and the girls go into medical billing.
It used to be that there was something called idealism and people were willing to suffer with a lower wage because they lived for an ideal.
I dealsim is pretty much dead but hey, that should be a topic for a whole new thread.
editedDecember 27, 2021 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #2045352
Many of the really outstanding “educators” (versus teachers) in our yeshivos and beis yaakovs were older and considering retirement even before Covid. After 2 years of dealing with Covid (often w/o the resources and support provided in more affluent schools) they are leaving in record numbers and generally replaced by younger, less experienced teachers. The system is over-extended and the quality of instruction will suffer. Too many yeshivos, too much duplication of physical facilities and excess administrative overhead, too little focus on training and instructional skills. As someone noted above, entry level teachers are viewed almost as an afterthought as a fungible commodity rather than being the core focus of our yiddeshe mosdos.December 27, 2021 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #2045361
GH – you shouldn’t be making general statements when you surely don’t have exposure to more than a small handful of schools in your dated Amos. I don’t know if your above observations are true or not by you, but they do not ring true for bunches of other schools. Not at all.December 27, 2021 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #2045377
> Many teachers give their lives to their students and work 24/7.
I find this more true for the (way) older generation, either because of the harder times they grew up, or maybe just because of natural selection and only great teachers stayed in profession that long. Among younger ones, I see (often, not all of course) more pragmatic interests – feed the family, spend reasonable time/effort, this is the only job she is qualified to do… This may be in part as the only challenges of latest generations were such (pre-covid) or maybe, it is just a phase and they’ll grow up, I don’t know.December 27, 2021 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2045376
Raising salaries may not solve the problem. As it is, many working families that pay full or close to full tuition find it hard to pay and spend their lives earning money to pay for, edited schools. They have less time to spend with kids and thus have to rely on schools to do more and more of chinuch. Look also at public school system – generally, “taking care” of teachers lead to an expensive system. Furthermore, giving charity funds to schools makes them even responsive to parents (same as in public schools)
Gemora and later halakha provides a carve out for teachers for unlimited competition – so that prices will be lower and parents could afford it. This does not mean “do not pay teachers well”, it means enable true competition and market – enable many smaller schools that parents can easily switch between, encourage transparency of school budgets and educational outcomes, enable parents to use part of the school program, etc. Maybe the generous donors can leverage their funds to move the system this way either directly or by a voucher-type system where parents direct the funds.
For a simple example, why not parents decide which teachers will get additional funds that are coming from outside schools. This will ensure that good teachers stay and not so good leave voluntarily.December 27, 2021 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #2045381
AAQ – please tell me the truth, how many schools have you “researched” to come up with this? Same as GH, you speak (not always so kindly) about the schools and their system and you can’t be speaking about more than 2 or maybe 3. Keep in mind your grand plans may not apply in any way to the other hundredsDecember 27, 2021 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #2045382
what stops people from saying, “Here are my own impressions from the few schools that I know well”. Is there a podium here that I’m missing?December 27, 2021 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #2045415user176Participant
I agree. My opinion was formed based on my experience with my own children (whose teachers were mostly young btw) who are really moser nefesh for their students. I imagine that teachers usually do not do it for the money…. But some other here feel like some young people just need something to do so they become teachers. I don’t see the draw but who knows..December 27, 2021 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #2045417
but that’s my point. why would you change your opinion because they had different experiences in their daled amos? My experience on here and in real life and in articles I have read is that there are people coming from public school systems or more modern schooling who seem to worry more about the level of academics than the hashkofos. And don’t think their kids don’t pick up on it.December 27, 2021 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #2045427
Syag, beyond personal experiences, I researched all local frum and even modern schools, and heard from other people about other places. I spoke with a number of Rabbis and teachers both working in those schools and those who were just customers. I do understand that my knowledge is limited, of course. My suggestions are based what I know of halakhic approaches, and you are welcome to bring your own knowledge also. If you are not denying that halakha wants unlimited competition between teachers and all that is implied by that, then the question is how exactly this should be applied.December 27, 2021 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #2045431
Syag > level of academics than the hashkofos. And don’t think their kids don’t pick up on it.
They absolutely pick up! We are teaching kids that academics is hashkofa. Some people prepare for lifetime chinuch and this is great, especially if they understand what is required and ready for it. This would typically be people from families with such traditions. Others prepare to work be erliche yidden in what they do, do chesed, learn, etc. Our family has at least 5 generations of engineers/ businessmen/ doctors and the kids understand that academics is required to follow this derech. They understand that academics is not a goal to supersede others and none of them was interested in going to schools with good academics but compromised behaviors.December 27, 2021 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #2045432
(while the husbands learn in kollel)
We all know how much you hate Kollel, but what does it have to do with this discussion?December 27, 2021 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #2045438
“They absolutely pick up! We are teaching kids that academics is hashkofa.”
there is no chance in the world that you don’t deliberately misread what I write.
I did not say: level of academics than the hashkofos
who seem to worry more about the level of academics than the hashkofos.
I will translate for you. These parent put more emphasis on the academics that their children learn, then they put on the hashkafos they learn. Sometimes pushing to forgo Torah learning for more secular learning. This poor prioritizing of secular OVER religious gives a very bad, sad, wrong message to the children.December 27, 2021 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #2045437
user176 > I imagine that teachers usually do not do it for the money
This is true – and one wonderful principal frankly said exactly these words about the teachers she hires … What I see, though, in latest couple of generations is that there are too many people who have no other work options except chinuch, due to their own education. When they grow up, some of them discover passion for teaching and others – do not, but they are expected to go into chinuch. [ Maybe in some larger communities, they can go work for some “frum” businesses who will not be afraid to hire and teach them the business]. So, they go and do the best of it, without much passion.
In some elementary schools, you have one main teacher for at least half-a-day. So, if you get an inappropriate teacher for a kid for the whole year, it is difficult. The fact that the last year teacher was a tzadekes is not helping at that moment… Here is where free market could help. Quoting a Rav who told me of a conversation he had with a principal:
– would you know already who is going to teach 5th grade this year?
– Hashem will help
– So, He will be holding my tuition check for nowDecember 27, 2021 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #2045441
I can’t tell if you are anti frum or just a bigot.December 27, 2021 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #2045450
I can’t tell if you are anti frum or just a bigot.
I’ll be dan l’kaf z’chus that he’s just drunk.December 27, 2021 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #2045449theshadchansaysParticipant
people, check out Benny Friedmans new song!!!December 27, 2021 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #2045447
The reason this isn’t a simple “supply and demand” issue is because a good Jewish education is not a luxury item.
In many countries, items such as basic food, housing, and medical care are subsidized and don’t completely fit in to the supply and demand model.
Without more “government subsidies” (philanthropy), the schools cannot provide the superior product which we do not consider a luxury, so following the regular rules of supply and demand, which leaves the schools staffed by inexperienced and underskilled teachers.December 27, 2021 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #2045457
Syag > These parent put more emphasis on the academics that their children learn, then they put on the hashkafos they learn.
I think I understood you. I agree that this problem exists. I just don’t agree that it has to be so bad. I presume, you go to stores, cook your food, and have more than one change of clothes. How much are you fretting that your family prioritizes food over learning Torah? I presume that someone in your family goes to work? Is he/she prioritizing work over learning? As I said before, our community did admirable job counteracting assimilation and desire to be “like Joneses”. This was appropriate, following Rambam’s approach – if you have a wrong midah, you need temporarily (sic!) go to another extreme until you train yourself and then return to the “golden middle”. Same with the community as a whole – in the process of defending from assimilation, our communities became distorted not just economically, but also hashkofically in terms of how we live our lives. Gemora already said that “many followed Rashbi and were not successful”. So, if we have already 2-3 generations that have distorted values, we will not preserve the Torah of previous generation, but a perverse version of it.December 28, 2021 12:30 am at 12:30 am #2045469
DY > In many countries, items such as basic food, housing, and medical care are subsidized
Right, Cubans do! OK, EU does it too. But notice that the most basic products are provided by the market, starting with food. Yes, there are subsidies but, as much as possible, they should not distort the market. Thus, foodstamps and vouchers are preferred solutions.
So, what happens when you provide direct funding to schools? You give more power to school administrators. You hope they’ll pay the best teachers more. But what if they pay their friends more? What if their understanding of what makes a good teacher is not perfect?
Why not have a combination of parents and _independent_ Rabbis/chinuch experts provide additional funding to best teachers directly? The funding will follow the teacher to another school or if he starts his own class.December 28, 2021 12:43 am at 12:43 am #2045483ujmParticipant
The underlying issue is our kehilos’ inability to enforce a taxation on all Yidden, including gevirim based on their income.December 28, 2021 12:56 am at 12:56 am #2045495
Ujm, are you saying that it should scale based on income – that rich people should give a higher percentage of their income than others? Where do we find that? Chazal say to give 1/5, or just 1/10 for maaser kesafim.December 28, 2021 1:07 am at 1:07 am #2045504ujmParticipant
Avira, isn’t 1/5 and 1/10, in mathematical terms, considered to be a percentage? I’m saying the same percentage for everyone. But that means the rich (individually) pay more real dollars than the middle class. And proportionally so.December 28, 2021 1:08 am at 1:08 am #2045502
I was close to a certain tzadik who was not rich, but ended up on the list of gevirim that meshulachim would visit. He said that he ends every month with about 1/5 left of all the money he makes from his positions in kashrus and his being a rosh yeshiva. I’m not mentioning his name because he didn’t want it to be publicized.December 28, 2021 1:13 am at 1:13 am #2045499
AAQ, currently a great number of those who claim to want to follow rebbe yishmoel go off entirely or partially in trying to do so, while almost none of their learning counterparts do.
The kolel system is meant to maintain frumkeit and produce jews who are yodea sefer, on the level of baalei batim of previous generationsDecember 28, 2021 6:01 am at 6:01 am #2045568
In EY it may be hard to distinguish kollel from typical Judaism. But the USA models are about klei kodesh or Torah Lishma. It’s mildly insulting to insist that kollel is intended to fill a mere knowledge gap.December 28, 2021 6:01 am at 6:01 am #2045569
“….. inability to enforce taxation…..”
More like absolutely no desire to have a community wide initiative to support the community.
I agree with your point, but your expectations are over the moon. There is not enough taking care of our own. To a stupid degree.December 28, 2021 8:04 am at 8:04 am #2045601
Two things about kollel wives supporting their families. It is generally only a serious burden after five or six years of marriage. A large amount of men are leaving or already have left kollel by then.
And, you post about making kollel more exclusive. I guess the reality is that there are more willing potential kollel wives, than future kollel members.December 28, 2021 11:55 am at 11:55 am #2045641
The implied accusation is that too high a percentage of entrants to kolle are doing so because of a trend or style. Our hope that they are engaging in Torah Lishmoh is wishful thinking. It simply doesn’t “paas” for many to go directly to work. “He’s nebach a working boy.” Yet, no one utters a single disappointing word about someone that makes himself into a public expense. I’m not against kollelim. We all did that. But our contemplation about career needs to have been initiated in our teen years. For some who are a good fit for it, full time learning is the direction. For most, it is not.
I once observed that we recite the posuk, ועמך כולם צדיקים. We do not utter ועמך כולם רבנים, nor do we proclaim ועמך כולם חכמים. Those without the erudition in Torah can still be tzaddikim. I know that chassidus had as one of its original tenets the kedusha of the simple Yid who would sustain himself with daily work, perhapos without the scholarship in Torah, but performed mitzvos with devotion and ehrlichkeit. I do not consider a kollel yungerman better than a working boy. Each is fulfilling their takkid. The caste system that labels the honest working boy who does his tafkid as somehow “less than” is missing the point. Did Yaakov Avinu bless his children with various forms of parnosoh, with only Yissachar designated to be the learner? And in most psukim, we find Zevulun mentioned before Yissachar, his older brother.
So if we make it unfashionable to work, we have women doing anything possible to earn a dollar so that the husband/father gets to spend the day in kollel. It cannot not exist. But this as a style is not healthy for the Klal. הרבה עשו כרבי שמעון ולא עלתה בידם.December 28, 2021 11:56 am at 11:56 am #2045647ubiquitinParticipant
Lol at your previous post, I love it when you make stuff up “currently a great number of those who claim to want to follow rebbe yishmoel go off entirely or partially in trying to do so” In this one you are flat out arguing on the Gemara which says almost the opposite
Two points that seem to have been ignored in this thread.
teachers work much fewer hours than most. Typically half a day ( yes plus an hour for phonecalls grading papers etc). Early dismissal Fridays. Not to mention summer off.
Plus there schedule is built around their kid’s with off during kids breaks winter, Chanuka etc. Fridays in the winter are less of a stress.
It is not reasonable to argue that “well in an office job I would make 15 K more” – which is what a recent “viral letter” said comparing Apples and Oranges.
Of course if after you chesban all the extra hours ? babysitting and still feel that working almost double the hours (including summers and full days instead of half) is to your benefit for the extra 15 K, then go for it chayecha kodem. but to just compare Teaching to a much more time intensive job doesn’t make sense.
2) tuition breaks
A even bigger point is tuition breaks. As far as I’m aware most schools offer their faculty tuition breaks, The ones I’m aware are half off.
One of the popular local girl schools in my area charges 12 K per kid. A teacher with 3 girls in the school saves 18K a year. To make that extra 18K Before taxes she would need 25 K (guesstimating).
now granted this depends on how many kids faculty member has, and of what gender. Though solutions could be easily worked out (if there was such desire) between schools that could give vouchers recognized by the other.
In short teachers pay is commensurate to the far fewer hours they work compared to most.
When you include tuition breaks it far exceeds most similar level fieldsDecember 28, 2021 11:59 am at 11:59 am #2045668
My frame of reference is probably more limited but I recently heard many of the same observations from speakers at the Chabad annual asifah for their shalichim and the Agudah convention several weeks ago. I do believe there is a shortage of qualified teachers, Covid accelerated an existing trend towards retirement among some of the better albeit older teachers and we are not paying enough attention to chinuch training for the new newly recruited replacements (nor are we paying sufficient salaries but I suspect that will always be an issue)December 28, 2021 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #2045674
Avira > currently a great number of those who claim to want to follow rebbe yishmoel go off entirely or partially in trying to do so, while almost none of their learning counterparts do.
This is the danger, and it was surely happening across the board 100 years ago. I am not convinced that this is the case now, though.
Judging from your writing about “MO”, you are usually talking about people who were not/not very observant to begin with. I see a lot of observant young professionals who went to MO schools and had observant parents. When I see a parent a child together, they see to be on average equally learned – in some cases, the father is more learned, in some cases, the son. I, of course, do not see those who do not come, but my impression is that those from MO/community schools who come from observant parents stay that way, and those who were sent there to be in a private Jewish school also stay that way, sometimes being more observant than parents. Does not mean there is no downwards pressure – I heard from such parents about pressure to be less tzanua and go to Ivy League instead of more Jewishly appropriate schools, but many seem to withstand the pressure.December 28, 2021 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2045681
It has a multi purpose function; it definitely produces klei kodesh etc, but the reason why it’s encouraged for everyone is what I said above; this is based on conversations with numerous gedolei yisroel over the years.December 28, 2021 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #2045696
Ubiq; teaching is probably the most time consuming job possible – you always take your work home with you, and spend hours preparing…you don’t just walk in like a regular 9-5 job, do your work, come home to a supper, daven up a daf yomi and fo to bed.
Due to the low pay, having the sunmer “off” is quite far from a vacation; all rebbeim have to take summer jobs.
I’d much rather a system where rebbeim have to work in, say curriculum development over the summer and get paid decently than the way things are now.
If anything, it’s your post that is entirely making things up, casting chinuch as an east street profession – I find it insulting as someone who is in the trenches, constantly dealing with parents, lesson plans, grading, planning events and much more.
What I said isn’t “against the gemara” any more than is the cherem of rabbeinu gershom – yeridas hadoros happens, practicality has to be changed to reach the same goals. You’re probably fine with women learning gemara because “times change” even though the gemara is against it – there it’s changing not lishma, and here it’s changing as ais laasos lasehm heferu torasecha.
AAQ; most who go to work don’t go off, but a significant amount do, and a much bigger amount have a yeridah. It’s kind of the opposite of the situation of the gemara; yechidim can stay very strong while working, while most develop spiritual deficiencies – of course they were already having problems, but being in kolel would have held them back from many things. I’m talking about what I’ve seen happen to my friends who left Yeshiva early – I’m not talking at all about yungeleit who go to work after 5 years in kolel; almost all of such people I know of turned out fine, albeit a drop less idealistic.December 28, 2021 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2045707ubiquitinParticipant
Only true statement:
“you don’t just walk in like a regular 9-5 job,”
True its either 8 – 11 or 12 -4
or something like that
“all rebbeim have to take summer jobs”
So do all of us, we just call it “jobs”
The salary (and camp discounts) should count when considering their yearly salary
” casting chinuch as an east street profession”
I didn’t mean it is easy.
It has pluses and minuses like every profession. Yes the take home pay is a bit less, but the hours are much much less.
That doesn’t make it easy.
Adam La’umal Yulad. Many of use have hard jobs
“What I said isn’t “against the gemara””
your observation is see Berachos 35b “”many did like Rabbi Yishmael and were successful, and many did like Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai and were unsuccessful”. ”
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to convince you on kolel stuff. You went through some rough stuff I get it, and this is nt a topic that intrests me. Nu nu times change and that Gemara no longer holds true. b’seder
The ignored perks that teachers get though that I find interesting
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