Teen Violence in Lakewood
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- This topic has 128 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 21 hours, 42 minutes ago by n0mesorah.
March 15, 2023 11:26 am at 11:26 am #2173952
Getting a typical job and making enough money to be self sufficient, are at odds with each other in today’s day. But let’s keep this country’s disfunction, separate from Lakewood.March 15, 2023 11:27 am at 11:27 am #2173954
The Rosh Yeshivos of the most prestigious Yeshivos believe in secular studies. The ones that are around for decades, actually started off with English and Diplomas. It didn’t work so they switched. And the parent body is not in agreement with Rav Aharon. If they were, they would be having their boys learning a full second seder at twelve years old.March 15, 2023 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2173956
You are incorrect. Most of Rav Aharon’s talmidim (This only means those that were Rosh Yeshivos.) advocated for English programs. Some avoided it. But it seems like they were on the fence about it. I am only certain about one talmid, (Including non RY.) that was open in his opposition to English. Maybe there were a few others. But the concesus coming out of Lakewood always was that your yeshiva and it’s bachurim would be more matzliach with a full high school curriculum. But in Lakewood itself, the opposite became true.March 15, 2023 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2173957
To my knowledge, the only High School in Rav Schneur’s day had English. (Unless Mesivta of Lakewood was around forty years ago. I think not.) To be polite, let’s just say that he did not send there. We can’t infer an approval for English from that. Moreover, I would expect him to be against it. He was born and learned in Europe. Though almost all of his talmidim supported English. The current Rosh Yeshivos of BMG, are American. I think two had secular studies and two did not.March 15, 2023 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2173961
I could get behind you ideology, but your post is terribly flawed. It makes it sound like you don’t really believe it, you just hate Lakewood. I know you don’t think that. Because I also know that you don’t really know Lakewood.
There are a bunch of Mesivtas that are only gemara. (Why do you keep mentioning Halacha?) But ten hours a day, is a lot. Most Mesivtas schedule around eight or nine hours a day. (Whether only limudei kodesh. Or plus limudei chol.) Maybe the top Mesvtas have ten hours of seder. I guess this is what you call nitpicking.
The RY that give advice to all the startup high schools, is openly pro english. He says he tried and couldn’t get it done. He still recommends it. and one of his own sons even got his own diploma on the side. This may be negligible to you, but from within Lakewood it is a known refutation to the argument UJM is trying to make.
Lakewood is not an ideologically driven place. Maybe long ago. I don’t know. Now it is invested in the pursuit of happiness like everyone else.
Whatever the reasons of the likes of UJM may be, it is not anti Torah in this argument. His Tznius and Morals may be anti Torah. But his educational outlook is not.
I don’t think the worry is batala. It is a lack of trust. If I teach my kid algebra, he will hack the computer and get on the internet. If I teach him history, he will be a maskil. If I teach him science, well, everybody knows that every scientist is a kofer. The funny thing is that most of these adults learned some secular studies when they were younger.
I don’t know what disaster it would lead to, other than have a dumb conspiracy driven community that can’t learn Torah because they can’t think straight. But that is not something askanim would care about. So please clarify.March 15, 2023 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #2174047yeshivaguy45Participant
ujm-I learned in a yeshiva where both Roshei yeshiva were talmidim of R’Aharon Kotler Zatzal and the accredited english program was very good.
So it’s not a shita of R’Aharon.March 15, 2023 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #2174064
@n0mesorah Almost every Mesivta I know of starts with davening sometime between 7 and 8, and has a full schedule until at least 5, often with night seder. That’s ten hours.
I mention Gemara and Halacha because in those type of places, those are generally the only two subjects that are actually taught. (Though, now that I think of it, Mishnayos too.) Chumash, kids are expected to learn on their own, math is assur, mussar usually boils down to a speech once a week and maybe some Mesilas Yeshorim bein ha’sedarim, science is apikorsus, and Nach is usually not taught at all. So Gemara and Halacha.
I’ve heard from many Lakewood parents that they wouldn’t send to the high schools with curriculums other than Gemara and Halacha because those aren’t good enough. I don’t know exactly where it started, but it seems pretty obvious to me that it’s very ideologically driven at its core. The movement has so much momentum that even if there’s a silent majority that wishes Yeshivos would offer math, science, history, etc. they are swept up with those that actively fight against it.
It’s leading to disaster in the sense that there simply isn’t enough knowledge to support our growing frum community. We need askanim, businessmen, scientist. People like Rav Moshe Heineman SHLITA who can take apart an oven and determine how can be redesigned to be opened on Shabbos without an engineering degree are few and far in between (and even he relies heavily on Star-K engineers). People lobbying the government who are currently fighting for the “right” for parents to raise kids ignorant of anything outside of Gemara and Halacha are themselves mostly college educated. The real estate companies that employ massive amounts of frum people are run by those who learned math and social studies in high school. And I’m not even going into the massive amounts of sheer illiteracy plaguing our community where people eschew doctors in favor of “natural cures”, bringing long dormant illnesses back, or those that literally believe the Earth to be flat. Where will these people come from in the next generation?
We are already seeing this happen in Eretz Yisroel, nebech. The only reason the Chareidi oilom precariously survives is a combination of the massive amount of power in the Knesset allowing tons of aid to be directed to Chareidi families. And that’s still not enough, as evidenced by the sheer number of people who survive on tzedaka alone, often forced to travel overseas just to beg! This is the future we have to look forward to if Moshiach doesn’t come soon.
And we wonder why there is so much teen violence.March 15, 2023 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #2174108GadolHadofiParticipant
Due to Joseph’s “first hand community work on the issue in multiple municipalities”, Philly, Scranton, Long Beach, Denver and the other Lakewood-founded Mesivtas will be cancelling secular studies immediately; Not.March 15, 2023 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #2174124yeshivaguy45Participant
Gadolhadofi-I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. I am for teaching English in yeshivas. I was saying that it wasn’t a shita of R’Aharon not to have english but of somebody else.March 15, 2023 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #2174126
“In the communities that essentially tell children that if they can’t learn for 10 hours a day and do nothing else for most of their lives that they are failures, kids who can’t do that often act out.”
Ooooh, if we’re just gonna make stuff up about other Jews, can I join too? I thought we were trying to have an honest debate, but we could have such fun instead!
“And we wonder why there is so much teen violence.”
lolol teen violence only exists in Lakewood and is the fault of those horrible anti-vaxxers. I think you’ve hit all the high notes on the people you hate. Do you feel better now? Or should we blame the national debt, ozone hole, decline of morality, and growing old on them too?March 15, 2023 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2174134
It most definitely was Rav Aharon’s preference not to have any secular subjects taught at any age to either gender. Yet, he was involved in the opening of schools with secular studies at every stage of his klal work.March 15, 2023 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #2174152
Point blank question: If the learn ten hours a day approach is an ideological one, why do the RY of the ten hour (as you insist.) a day Mesivta make known his preference to English?
Now if it’s allowed let me fill you in. The real issue is, where would you find competent teachers? This is so obvious, I don’t know how you or UJM convinced yourselves that this a matter of choice as opposed to circumstance.
I give up on trying to correct you about Lakewood. The place you describe does not exist.
The disaster you spell out is meh to me. There is enough secular knowledge in Lakewood. If anyone listens to them or not, is not because of their high school education.
Lakewood has many basic differences than Israel. No comparison.
Next point blank question: Do you think even one of these teens turned to violence because he was denied from doing a detailed analysis of the spores on amanita mushrooms?
If anything it’s about not being denied the knowledge of a first hand experience of mushrooms.March 15, 2023 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #2174169
This one’s on me, I don’t understand your question and I don’t want to say the wrong thing.
What is the schedule for the Mesivtas that you’re thinking of? I don’t know of any that doesn’t have at least a ten hour day. I mean, my high school only started English at 3:30, and then we came back for an hour of night seder.
There is an issue finding competent teachers. That is because of the same flawed system which we are discussing that doesn’t produce people with the capability to teach.
There is enough “secular” knowledge and money in Lakewood now. There won’t be in the next ten or twenty years.
I’ll answer your second question with another question: Do you think the failures I am stating are about the Yeshivos not teaching mycology or not teaching basic minimal skills required to by in life, such as math, science, and social?March 16, 2023 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2174419
The answer is that the RY do not reject general studies. It just didn’t really work. This is a fact. You insist that it must be an ideology. That’s a lie. UJM agrees with you. He has an extensive resume. RY of a Lakewood Mesivta is not yet one of them.
A standard seder hayom is at most four hours first seder, three hours second seder, and over at least an hour night seder. That’s eight. Maybe you are including time for davening.
There are many competent teachers in Lakewood. But most of them would rather be teaching gemara. And teaching secular studies in a Mesivta is only a part time job. Remember that women teachers is not an option.
I don’t know why the people who know their sciences would forget them, or move out of town. Additionally, why would the more knowledgeable type stop coming? At one point there was a theory that there wouldn’t be enough frum pediatricians in Lakewood. It didn’t play out. Lakewood is much more attractive to people with degrees that are serious about their kid’s Jewish Education. And with all the expansion, there is a neighborhood for every type.
And now to answer your question. I assumed you were talking about math, science and, social. Nobody who wants to be taken seriously would suggest that these kids are violent because they do not know enough math or science. Suggesting mushrooms as the root problem would come across as being less clueless.March 17, 2023 1:36 am at 1:36 am #2174462☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Ooooh, if we’re just gonna make stuff up about other Jews, can I join too
I’m anxiously awaitingMarch 17, 2023 1:36 am at 1:36 am #2174475
@n0mesorah And why didn’t it work specifically in Lakewood in the 21st century? Every other city, country (besides Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel), and time period in the post-Holocaust world strongly encouraged it. So why did it break down all of a sudden? It’s an ideological thing, plain and simple. A silly, misguided, ideology that people have fooled themselves into thinking is Torah.
(Aren’t you Lubavitch? Didn’t the late Rebbe of Lubavitch also encourage studying math, science, and history in Yeshiva?)
You just described a ten hour day. Yeah, there’s a few breaks, but it’s still majority spent on Gemara and halacha.
“I don’t know why people will forget science”. Well, they won’t (probably). But their kids never learn it in the first place and that’s who will be replacing them.
Nobody who wants to be taken seriously would suggest that these kids are violent because they do not know enough math or science.
That’s not what I meant. Lemme explain. Kids in these types of Mesivtas are shown a single criteria for being a success: Knowing how to learn Gemara. When they fail at that, or just simply don’t enjoy it, they often act out.March 17, 2023 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #2174540
Your making stuff up. If there were competent, affordable teachers it would happen. As it is, there are enough options that have some English program. It’s weird that your so confident about what Lakewood thinks, when you are openly inferring their ideology from what you decided is going on.
(That made me laugh. I’m not Lubavitch at all!)
I got 4 + 3 + 1 = 8. You got ten. See my first paragraph.
“The kids will never learn it.” Says you.
Now let’s get back to what the OP was talking about. (Most of) these kids have not spent even one day in Mesivta. They are younger then you think. Their troubles go back to around fifth grade. One would not automatically assume that they know long division.March 17, 2023 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #2174562
Yseribus: Why are you limiting your view to the post-Holocaust era? The pre-Holocaust era is much longer and more important to authentic Yiddishkeit. In the pre-Holocaust era in Europe secular studies was by far the exception by Chareidim, both Litvish and Chasidish. In fact, secular studies was especially rare pre-WWI and still by far the exception pre-WWII.March 17, 2023 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #2174574
It is absolutely the case that the Roshei Yeshivos since Rav Ahron supported a no secular studies arrangement in Mesivtas under ideal circumstances. The various Roshei Yeshivos may have had different opinions of what ideal circumstances were that allowed a Mesivta to forgo a secular curriculum. Some felt that many parents wouldn’t send their children to a Mesivta with no English so they permitted secular subjects to prevent the bochorim from being sent to worse schools. Others may have felt other criteria needed to be considered whether to allow or forbid secular studies.March 17, 2023 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #2174571
@n0mesorah The Mesivta day is 9-13 hours long, most of which is spent learning with only short breaks for lunch and recess. I stand by what I said.
So these kids are acting out, being violent, and destroying pizza shops are 11 years old?
@ujm It’s an interesting perspective you have there. Wrong, but interesting none the less.March 19, 2023 12:12 am at 12:12 am #2174700
Yseribus: Are you trying to claim that in the pre-Holocaust era it was common for Mesivtas in Europe to offer a secular studies curriculum that most bochorim attended?March 19, 2023 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #2174858
Your not making a coherent argument. And anyways, what difference is it if two hour of second seder are converted to secular subjects? It’s the same result.
These kids did not make it to high school. They are about fifteen. They started falling behind at eleven. It is impossible to know what you are clearly projecting. Not to say that it matters. You haven’t given me any reason to take you seriously on this.March 19, 2023 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #2174896
> In the pre-Holocaust era in Europe secular studies was by far the exception by Chareidim,
at earlier times, most nations did not have a lot of studies – and majority of population did not need them, given that most of them were farming and later working at factories. Jews were generally more educated than surrounding population. Our times seems to be the first in history where [some] Jews are claiming that their mesorah is to be willfully ignorant. Not everyone received this mesorah, and I hope this could be respected.March 19, 2023 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #2174898amiricanyeshivishParticipant
Prewar most boys learned a trade at age 11. Those that went to Yeshiva past bar mitzva were few and far in between. That is not counting the 75% plus who were going off the derech to all isms.March 19, 2023 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #2174921
AAQ: False. They are claiming that the mesorah is to be just as educated today as we were 100 years ago, 250 years ago and 1,000 years ago. None of those periods included a secular studies curriculum for the masses of bochorim. It did include a highly rigorous Biblical and Talmudical curriculum. That, both then and now, is far from being your characterization of “willfully ignorant”. It is only your ideology that all our zeidas were “willfully ignorant”, and that only when we came off the boat to America and adhered to secular mandates on what to teach that Klal Yisroel became less ignorant than our forefathers.
Amir: Even those that learned a trade at a young age (which was NOT a majority at the age you cited) never stopped Limud Torah. Indeed, Limud Torah has been a lifetime commitment of Yidden throughout Jewish history.March 20, 2023 7:38 am at 7:38 am #2174944
@ujm Are you seriously trying to compare child rearing and education in the frum world today as it was 100 years ago?
@n0mesorah So we are talking about teenagers, good because that makes a lot more sense. It just goes back to what I’ve been saying this entire time. Teens in certain communities that do not enjoy learning Gemara don’t relish the two choices placed before them: Learn Gemara (the thing you’re bad at and don’t like at all) for the better part of a 10 hour day or be a failure. So they act out. It’s as simple as that.March 20, 2023 9:18 am at 9:18 am #2174985
Yseribus: I’m seriously trying to encourage following Torah Yiddishkeit as always practiced and discourage switching away from that towards a now Western/American worldview.March 20, 2023 11:39 am at 11:39 am #2175029
@ujm If that’s the case, then you should be 100% aboard with what I’m saying. Baruch Hashem, I’m glad we are finally in agreement!March 20, 2023 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2175076
“It just goes back to what I’ve been saying this entire time. Teens in certain communities that do not enjoy learning Gemara don’t relish the two choices placed before them: Learn Gemara (the thing you’re bad at and don’t like at all) for the better part of a 10 hour day or be a failure. So they act out. It’s as simple as that.”
Repeating it endlessly does not make it true. A LOT more is going on with a kid who descends into drugs and violent behavior than struggling in school. And your insistence that violent teenagers is only a Lakewood (aka Chareidi) issue does a disservice to the entire discussion. It’s simply dishonest, and is more a commentary on who you hate than on how to actually help kids.March 20, 2023 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #2175142
“Our times seems to be the first in history where [some] Jews are claiming that their mesorah is to be willfully ignorant.”
This is motzi shem ra.March 20, 2023 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #2175141
“And why didn’t it work specifically in Lakewood in the 21st century? Every other city, country (besides Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel), and time period in the post-Holocaust world strongly encouraged it.”
So do you agree that the NYT-led crusade against Yeshivos in NY (Lakewood is in NJ) is completely baseless?
“It’s an ideological thing, plain and simple. A silly, misguided, ideology that people have fooled themselves into thinking is Torah.”
So you feel intellectually and morally superior to those “Lakewood” Jews. It’s not true, but whatever. If you have an interest in convincing someone, however, talking down to them from a place of disdain usually isn’t the way to go about it. I personally think that Jews living in Lakewood are thinking and intelligent human beings who know themselves and their community, their values, hopes, dreams, and fears better than you do.March 20, 2023 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2175152
@Avram-In-MD I’ve addressed most of your comments but I’ll pick up this one point again: Every community has kids at risk. And every community takes steps to help them. However, there is a huge factor contributing to kids at risk in some communities that they refuse to address: Namely the “Only Gemara and Halacha” mesivtas.
And I have to disagree with you one one point. I think that people are people. Individually, thinking and intelligent, but in large groups they have a tendency to make huge mistakes then rationalize it.March 20, 2023 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2175237
> They are claiming that the mesorah is to be just as educated today as we were 100 years ago, 250 years ago and 1,000 years ago. None of those periods included a secular studies curriculum for the masses of bochorim. It did include a highly rigorous Biblical and Talmudical curriculum.
I am not sure about 1,000 years ago, but 100 years ago most of my zeides and some bobbies were educated at the level of their times and were involved in technical businesses and trades.
Volozhin yeshiva had 400 students, this was not universal.
Still, the bigger point is that Jews were not less educated that others and probably more, given our tradition of learning.
I agree that life-long learning is the ideal, and I don’t see how knowing sciences is worse for your life-long learning than working hard cleaning after the cows and horses.March 20, 2023 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2175238
AAQ “OUR TIMES SEEMS TO BE THE FIRST IN HISTORY WHERE [SOME] JEWS ARE CLAIMING THAT THEIR MESORAH IS TO BE WILLFULLY IGNORANT.”
Avram> This is motzi shem ra.
To the opposite, I am defending the honors of mine (and maybe others’) ancestors who were not ignorant and insist that even now this is not true despite some here making a virtue out of ignorance.March 21, 2023 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #2175505
I think Avram was pointing out that Ujm did not post anything like what you are attacking. Why do you feel attacked in the first place?March 21, 2023 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #2175509
Lakewood has dozens of successful blue collar teens. And hundreds of successful blue collar young fathers. What you are projecting is completely false. This is not a kids at risk issue. Most of Lakewood’s at risk population is not at all involved in anything like this. Also, I don’t know why you think they teach Halacha (or Mishna) in Lakewood Mesivtos. It’s Gemara, Gemara, and Gemara. Three sedarim a day. Some places teach secular subjects for half of second seder.
How any of the above sheds any light on why kids who have been struggling socially since they were ten, would be caught up in a spiral of violence and property damage, is beyond the boundaries of logic. It is just prejudice. Bear in mind, That this is not nearly the first generation of kids to be raised in Lakewood. And it is loosely confined around a part of the communal infrastructure.March 22, 2023 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2175804
@n0mesorah This kind of is the first generation of kids to be raised in Lakewood. Certainly the first generation where the only option is a Mesivta with “Gemara, Gemara, and Gemara” as you put it.
Kids who are struggling academically since 10 need options. In some communities, there are no options and when they grow older and realize this, they act out. Nothing you said contradicts this and much of what you’ve said even reinforces it.March 22, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2175907
1) What?!? I know someone who went to Mesivta of Lakewood and is a grandfather. Explain that one as if the truth matters.
2) Already twenty years ago, Lakewood’s most established mesivta’s did not have any English. With the explosion of new mesivtas, there are all kind of options for general studies. Including computer training. And, there are several yeshivos with a gym on campus.
3) Also twenty years ago, there were some who had the opinion that well behaved teens who are not in yeshiva should not reside in Lakewood. Nobody thinks that anymore.
4) Lakewood has many, many options for frum kids today.
Nothing I say contradicts your posts, because all a lie needs is another lie. But your perspective of Lakewood is completely contradicted by the truth.March 22, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2175906
“I’ve addressed most of your comments”
No you haven’t. The only point you addressed was to acknowledge that “every community has kids at risk” (though kids assaulting a storekeeper are way beyond “at risk”). Other than that, you have failed to address my responses and have only repeated your shtus again and again.
“However, there is a huge factor contributing to kids at risk in some communities that they refuse to address: Namely the “Only Gemara and Halacha” mesivtas.”
Since you’re only repeating yourself, I won’t waste a bunch of words again. You’re making this up based on your MO prejudices against Lakewood.
“And I have to disagree with you one one point. I think that people are people. Individually, thinking and intelligent, but in large groups they have a tendency to make huge mistakes then rationalize it.”
I think you’re trying to teach me about groupthink, but not defining or describing it very well. Are you sure that individual ideas in Lakewood are being squelched, or do they just not like the ideas you think are great?March 23, 2023 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #2176479
The Lakewood population of 30 years ago is nothing compared to what it is now. When you only had a few hundred families sending to Gemara-only Mesivtas and there were other options open, it wasn’t such an issue. Now there are tens of thousands of families and even less options than there were 30 years ago.
For most frum families living in certain communities the options are extremely limited. And they often come with a stigma “Oh, you sent your kid to that Yeshiva”.
@Avram-in-MD I don’t know by what mechanism individual ideas are being squelched. I can only speak for the results: that there is very little diversity in terms of what Mesivtas offer.March 23, 2023 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2176506
“even less options than there were thirty years ago”
Well, this is were you are invoking a blatant, viscous, outright, boldface lie. Do you know what that sentence means? Your making it up. Need another explanation? There is no truth to what I quoted. Still unclear? That is not what was going on thirty years ago compared to today.
The only established mesivta in Lakewood had zero English. Maybe you mean that Lakewood had places for druggies and dropouts back then because it was such a small town and their was enough space for them. Maybe you even went to such a place. Note the use of the word maybe for something that I have no way of knowing. It is a useful method of expression. But that was not an option because nobody from Lakewood sent there. It was a place kids ended up in. Or kids brought up in families that were borderline orthodox, and also dysfunctional.
But in the present day, there are around a hundred high schools of varying levels. Plus, there is sports leagues, chess clubs, and music groups, for young kids. The average family in Lakewood today is proud to have a blue collar teenage son that goes to shul regularly. There are many shiurim specifically for working guys. There was almost none of that thirty years ago. And most of it wasn’t even around ten years ago. Lakewood growth has been in different qualitive types as well as quantity.
You have no idea what your talking about. And I wasn’t even around thirty years ago. I had to go around interviewing older people, to find out just how silly you are.March 23, 2023 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #2176586
@n0mesorah Just previously you said that almost all Lakewood Mesivtas are only Gemara because of a lack of interest and lack of teachers. Now you’re saying there’s “hundreds” of places. Nu? Which one is it?March 24, 2023 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #2176694
There are about a hundred mesivtos in total. I know of three that have secular studies and five that don’t.March 25, 2023 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #2176784
@n0mesorah You said at several points that no top mesivta has a “secular” program and many of them that had, shut it down.
Pretty much everyone I know in Lakewood either laments the lack of Mesivtas that teach math and science, or would never send to a place that does. The few Mesivtas that have such programs are extremely hard to get into.March 26, 2023 12:12 am at 12:12 am #2176935
Your current credibility rating on Lakewood is abysmal. Maybe the people <en>you know</en> have a hard time getting in to a mesivta with an English program. I know of one that does not have a full enrollment. Even more likely, finding a good enough well rounded mesivta is their problem.
That may help get you back on your soap box, but…………………
Probably not even one of these kids was heading to a decent level mesivta in eighth grade. And it has nothing to do with a lack of secular education. And everything to do with some social dysfunction.
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