Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Teen Violence in Lakewood
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April 23, 2023 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #2183243Yserbius123Participant
@n0mesorah I’m repeating myself, but you flip flopped several times on the situation regarding non-Gemara non-Halacha studies in Lakewood high schools. First you said that they don’t exist because no one wants them, then you said that there are plenty of high schools. And you’ve gone through everything in between.
There are problems in every frum community. Most of them admit it and have long discussions regarding how to fix them. But there are communities that have very blatant open issues that are so big they affect people outside those communities. And people are screaming at them to fix it, but they adamantly refuse to acknowledge that there’s even an issue.
April 24, 2023 12:06 am at 12:06 am #2183254interjectionParticipant“One such “kid” I know whose working parents encouraged him to learn (possibly beyond his talents) later responded to their concerns that he is not gainfully employed – “you encouraged me to go in this direction” …”
Are you suggesting this is Lakewood’s fault?
I just thought it would be relevant to point out, to those who think that kids go off because of gemara and no English studies, that girls in Lakewood also go off at a very high rate.
Has anyone here even asked any of these kids why they are acting this way, instead of assuming?
April 24, 2023 7:37 am at 7:37 am #2183289ujmParticipantinterjection: very high rate is an exaggeration. But your point about girls does refute the premise that the fault is about too much Limudei/too little secular.
April 24, 2023 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2183358Yserbius123Participant@interjection I am suggesting that there is a dangerous trend to minimize the importance of studies that aren’t Gemara to the point where it’s damaging to the children, both when they are young and when they get older.
I am questioning whether girls are going OTD at the same rate as boys. As far as I know that was never the case. Girls (at least in the non-Chassidish non-Modern settings I am familiar with) usually stay frum at a much higher rate.
April 24, 2023 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #2183405Menachem ShmeiParticipantYserbius123,
Sorry I’m a bit late, but I would like to set the facts straight regarding your comments on Lubavitch chinuch:
The Lubavitcher Rebbe was vehemently opposed to studying ANY limmudei chol (English, math, science) at any point of the chinuch system.
In the chadorim, he only allowed the minimum limmudei chol if there was a risk that the students would otherwise go to less frum mosdos.
For this reason, many chabad chadorim teach basic English, while many do not teach English at all (such as Oholei Torah in Crown Heights, which the Rebbe founded).When it comes to mesivtos, virtually no chabad mesivtos teach limmudei chol (there may be one or two small ones out of more than 40-50).
April 24, 2023 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #2183411GadolHadofiParticipantJoseph,
No, it doesn’t. From what I’m told, the secular education for Lakewood High Schools girls is generally pretty good. The girls have no problem finding decent paying jobs since employers know they acclimate very quickly.
April 24, 2023 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #2183582n0mesorahParticipantWhat a strawman!
April 24, 2023 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #2183603Avram in MDParticipantYserbius123,
“There are problems in every frum community. Most of them admit it and have long discussions regarding how to fix them.”
This is entirely and sadly untrue. N0mesorah has been criticizing your fictitious descriptions of Lakewood, and I’m here to call out your equally fictitious descriptions of MO communities.
“But there are communities that have very blatant open issues that are so big they affect people outside those communities.”
Whatever.
“And people are screaming at them to fix it, but they adamantly refuse to acknowledge that there’s even an issue.”
Hmm, maybe “people” can take a break from bashing “Lakewood” and have some long discussions regarding how to fix this. Maybe “Lakewood” people don’t like being hated on and misrepresented. Maybe they see your community’s so-called “solutions” and don’t like them, or don’t see them as solutions at all. Maybe they don’t see things in your community as wonderfully as you make them out to be, and they don’t like the hypocrisy of “people” wagging a finger at them while their own house burns. Maybe they even have young musmachim coming into your community offering Torah learning to disaffected young people, because they realize that we’re all Jews.
April 24, 2023 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #2183604ujmParticipantHadofi: You’re agreeing with the point. As the girls get more secular education than the boys, and yet there’s no evidence boys have a greater OTD issue than girls, there’s no correlation between less secular ed and OTD.
April 24, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2183634GadolHadofiParticipantJoseph,
OTD has many causes, such as dysfunctional families, learning issues, abuse, emotional problems, alcohol, drugs and poverty. One factor is the feeling of being trapped with a lack of options in life and a limited secular education is part of that. While there are unfortunately a growing number of OTD girls many experts believe they are still outnumbered by boys. Or has your “first hand community work on the issue in multiple municipalities” informed you otherwise?
April 24, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2183644Yserbius123Participant@ujm I am welcome to hearing corrections from people who are involved in kids-at-risk, but in my experience boys have always been going OTD far more often than girls.
April 24, 2023 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2183661Yserbius123Participant@menachem-shmei Interesting, I did not know that about Lubavitch. Did Rav Schneerson ZT”L ever comment on that philosophy vis a vis his time learning in Hildesheimer?
April 24, 2023 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #2183695Menachem ShmeiParticipantYserbius,
Not that I know of.
Though he did address his own attending university in connection with his strong stance against Jews attending university.
April 24, 2023 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #2183697GadolHadofiParticipantMenachem,
Isn’t it ironic that the Rebbe had an advanced secular education but his chassidim are forbidden from doing the same?
April 24, 2023 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #2183706Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantinterjection>> “you encouraged me to go in this direction” …”
> Are you suggesting this is Lakewood’s fault?it is a joint fault of the schools and yeshivos encouraging the guy into more and more limud (staying a couple of extra years every time he was to go home) and discouraging learning a job, and parents who went along (and paid tuition).
April 24, 2023 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #2183707Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantYserb > Did Rav Schneerson ZT”L ever comment on that philosophy vis a vis his time learning in Hildesheimer?
How is it different from R Feinstein Z’L whose daughter studied chemistry and married a future prof. of Biology? There is a difference between what particular people can do and a social policy for the wider community. Most people who went to college in 1940s-70s did not end well Jewish-wise.
April 24, 2023 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #2183753Menachem ShmeiParticipantGadolhadofi,
No, it’s not ironic. The Rebbe was specifically instructed by his Rebbe and father-in-law to receive that education.
Just as there were unique exceptions when the Rebbe encouraged certain chassidim to go to college.
April 24, 2023 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #2183762GadolHadofiParticipantMenachem,
How are Chabad chassidim who attend college nowadays viewed, especially if they come from geza families?
April 25, 2023 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2183871Menachem ShmeiParticipantGadolhadofi,
It’s hard for me to tell you, because I don’t personally know any Lubavitchers who are in college (though I assume that there are some).
Again, the Rebbe was adamantly against any Jew (not just Lubavitchers) going to college (aside from very rare individual exceptions). Therefore, this is considered very taboo in Chabad.
I guess a chossid who would do this would be viewed like anyone who does something very wrong.
Google: “chabad dot org no college” for many letters (the less fiery ones) of the Rebbe (mostly to non chassidim) on the matter.
(For parnosa, there were certain conditions when the Rebbe allowed it bedieved, such as only AFTER MARRIAGE, etc.)
April 25, 2023 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2183944CSParticipantGadol gadofi
“Isn’t it ironic that the Rebbe had an advanced secular education but his chassidim are forbidden from doing the same?”Aside from the main answer, If you’re talking about today, they definitely give an advanced education on gender confusion, all kinds of forbidden relationships etc. Do they even teach anything normal today in college? Just curious
April 25, 2023 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #2183958GadolHadofiParticipantCS,
I wasn’t referring to attending college for “educational value” but strictly to pursue a livelihood. I know two sons of well-known shluchim who did so after marriage, one works as an attorney and the other as a therapist. They are both considered talmidei chachamim in their respective communities outside of Crown Heights but I was wondering how they would be viewed by Chabad.
April 25, 2023 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #2183997CSParticipantIt is more accepted after marriage, although I was told that people should really think if they need it before taking the specific course etc. after marriage. Many professions today do not require a bachelor’s to do, and many people get a degree for parnassa and do not even end up using/ needing it. Me and my married siblings all are working at different professions and we all don’t have any use for a degree (one of my brothers is a ceo of a company).
April 25, 2023 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #2184011n0mesorahParticipantThe whole idea of Chabad is not to view people (who act different) differently.
April 25, 2023 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #2184059Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantCS, depends on the college, major and how you pursue it.
If you choose a technical major in a local or online college, use CLEPs and yeshiva classes for electives, you are mostly studying livelihood-related subjects. Parents should be able to guide you around things you don’t need to listen.
If you are going for a liberal arts degree in a fancy college while living in a dorm, then you get a lot of problems inside and outside of the classes
April 25, 2023 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #2184060Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantRe: L R opinion of college, similarly to R Feinstein’s opinions – we need to differentiate between colleges in different time. 2% of American men (and less of women) were going to college in 1940s and then was growing over time. College of now, in general, is a different thing both in terms of what it teaches, can be very differfent in nature, and also in terms of ways of dealing with it (Chabad houses being one of the great means of mitigating some of the problems)
April 25, 2023 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2184095ujmParticipantCollege today is 1,000 times worse than 50 years ago, when the Gedolei Yisroel, even back then, said it is forbidden.
April 25, 2023 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2184119Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantit may be “worse” in some senses, but you just need to define what exactly you are talking about. Someone at U Chicago Economics program and someone playing football at U of Alabama are just not comparable. Also, in terms of employmwnt, one had to inspire to be an elite person in 1950s if he ewnt to college, so, frmo Jewish perspective, “most” Yidden did not need it. Certainly L Rebbe and Rav Soloveichik were exception to that.
Nowadays, if you are not in college, you are limited to “heimishe” professions, that has their own downsides in terms of pay and job security and yetzer hara to cheat the government and others as a result. We also have lots of ways to mitigate problems that occur in college.
A large number of people can earn an honest living after getting a degree in a safe way and continue their learning through their life.
April 26, 2023 8:58 am at 8:58 am #2184159CSParticipantAAQ
“CS, depends on the college, major and how you pursue it.If you choose a technical major in a local or online college, use CLEPs and yeshiva classes for electives, you are mostly studying livelihood-related subjects. Parents should be able to guide you around things you don’t need to listen.
If you are going for a liberal arts degree in a fancy college while living in a dorm, then you get a lot of problems inside and outside of the classes”
True there are differences. When I checked with my mashpia after marriage regarding the TTI program where you can use credits from Jewish higher educational schools, and learn specific classes at home, and then take tests, I was told that Rabbi Heller has said that TTI is not what The Rebbe meant when he was against college.
That being said, the Alter Rebbe discussing how one is metame his brain with learning secular knowledge unless he uses it for kedusha like the Rambam and Ramban. So it’s what to tread carefully with.
When I was in school the curriculum was as such that we had to read goyishe novels. Most times I was able to convince the teacher etc to let me read a Jewish novel and write on it instead. Twice they forced me to read their curriculum and I was thoroughly revolted. And these were approved books. Imagine the others. But when someone exposes themselves to such stuff on a regular basis they don’t even see the shikutz of it
April 26, 2023 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #2184612Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantCS > TTI is not what The Rebbe meant when he was against college.
indeed. A good first step, but you can do better than that also.> Alter Rebbe discussing how one is metame his brain with learning secular knowledge
I know Yidden who are convinced that Rambam’s science is all from Gemora, and not from goyim of his time. Do you think they understand Rambam?But you need to specify what “secular” knowledge Ball Tanya was talking about. At his time, there was a lot of “anti-religious” secular knowledge.
Are we talking math? show me who is against math.
Physics, chemistry, biology, physiology that study how Hashem runs the world? You can say – to a certain degree, as Torah gives us a better approach to Hashem, but still.
English? I agree on annoying novels. Still, ability to write full sentences and express yourself clearly is useful. Most college classes have 1 or 2 of such classes.
At the end, if you take classes that help you get a productive profession, where you’ll spend part of the day doing chesed (surgery, legal, programming) at the price that you can afford seforim and your children’sschool tuition, and learn the rest of the day.
April 26, 2023 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #2184613Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant> When I was in school the curriculum was as such that we had to read goyishe novels.
that is in high school, where English is a bog thing. Less in college, unless you major in English or Education, R’L.
April 26, 2023 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #2184637Yserbius123Participant@CS Almost all of the Chachamim learned things from secular people. The Tana’im talk about Aristotle. Tosfos quotes Socrates. The Gra hired tutors for almost every subject studied at the time.
I question your interpretation of “secular studies are metamei the brain”. Perhaps when the previous previous Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L said that, he meant studying useless goyish things, like Indian mythology or comparative literature, and not the type of studies that can help a person understand the world (which are absolutely not “secular” no matter what your Cheder called them).
April 27, 2023 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2184658CSParticipantTo the last few posters, some of you are reading half the sentence and others are dismissing. I was just quoting Tanya likkutei amarim, end of perek 8. Feel free to look it up.
April 27, 2023 7:48 am at 7:48 am #2184670CSParticipantBut just to add some explanation, I remember learning in one of the sichos something fascinating on this topic:
Really, the Torah has all in the info in every field, however, most people don’t know where to extract the info they need from the vast sea of Torah.
When people study a secular course on a topic, they become arrogant as they feel themselves a master of the subject, whereas when one learns Torah, the more they learn, the more humble they become (unless they’re learning for improper reasons in which case the Torah can cvs become a סם מות). because they realize how little they know…
That’s what I remember learning, and what I take from that is that it’s not the actual science that’s the issue, the issue is the presentation. When a goyishe source presents it, it’s as its own wisdom, and the more you know, the more you feel in control of the outcome. When you learn Torah, you feel this is the Torah of Hashem, and this knowledge is just one of the many ways He can choose to work, so you’re left affected completely differently.
April 27, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2184902Amil ZolaParticipantIn the meantime, back on topic, what was the resolution to this teen violence in Lkwd?
April 27, 2023 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #2185012Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantCS > When people study a secular course on a topic, they become arrogant as they feel themselves a master of the subject, whereas when one learns Torah, the more they learn, the more humble they become
this is a gut vort. One hiluk: when Rabonim from 50-200 years ago write about this, it is about people who are abandoning Torah in favor of secular culture and knowledge. We here are mostly discussing Torah-observant Yidden adding knowledge of science or professions. This is a different issue.
Just to ponder: when gemora says – ein Torah b’goyim aval yesh Chochma b’goyim, why do they put these 2 things nearby, and how do they know about Chochma b’goyim? learned it and compared with their own studies?
April 28, 2023 12:26 am at 12:26 am #2185031Yserbius123Participant@Amil-Zola Encourage extracurricular activities and stop treating kids who can’t (or won’t) learn 8 hours a day for the rest of their lives like some sort of failure.
April 28, 2023 5:56 am at 5:56 am #2185040CSParticipant“this is a gut vort. One hiluk: when Rabonim from 50-200 years ago write about this, it is about people who are abandoning Torah in favor of secular culture and knowledge.We here are mostly discussing Torah-observant Yidden adding knowledge of science or professions. This is a different issue.”
You’re right. I forgot that part of the perek when I cited it- that if the reason the person is learning it is to understand Torah better/ or to make a parnassa to serve Hashem (whoops I forgot that part) like the Rambam and Ramban, then it’s ok.
“Just to ponder: when gemora says – ein Torah b’goyim aval yesh Chochma b’goyim, why do they put these 2 things nearby, and how do they know about Chochma b’goyim? learned it and compared with their own studies?”
Some studied for the reasons above, and some came across It for example R Yehoshua who debated the philosophers of Athens.
However, the one Talmid chacham we know of, who knew a tremendous amount of Torah, but sang Greek songs etc. meaning he was interested in the culture itself and didn’t use it as a means to an end… well that’s Acher.
April 28, 2023 11:33 am at 11:33 am #2185109Amil ZolaParticipantYserbius, I agree with you. But the news on this has gone silent. I’m interested in what was done after these kids attacked a business owner? Were they arrested? Were charges pressed, does the business owner now provide security so these little punks don’t do the same thing again?
April 28, 2023 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2185132n0mesorahParticipantDear Amil,
Everyone involved is interested in keeping it quiet. It is a very delicate and complex issue. The details are not widely known. Even your one sentence description contains inaccuracies.
April 28, 2023 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2185143n0mesorahParticipantI really have no interest in going over the whole thread to show how I never change my mind or moved the goalposts. I was careful what I posted because I predicted this whole thread. If the title would have been Teen Violence, the thread would be very different. Even though it is an issue in many communities. If anyone would bother reading through the first three pages, the biases would be clear enough. But to be extra clear, anybody with even a slight knowledge of what is actually going on, would be incredulous at the notion that this has any relation to the Lakewood stereotype.
Everybody please rise.
And now to my coup de grace.
Teen Violence in Lakewood
OP: Are we going to pretend it doesn’t exist and hope it goes away or do something proactive?
My immediate response: Neither. We are going to pretend it was someone else’s fault and wait for them to take responsibility.
Don’t bother looking it up. That would be out of character. Pontificate as you will.
Law enforcement was discussed. But it is not going to really do anything. [Being a jerk does not send someone to jail. Even if it can be called assault on the books. Get on the street a bit before you try responding to this.] security is an expense and it will not address the specifics. [..] Nobody bothered to think about the problem.
And this is the root to all these communal problems.
By it’s very existence a community will always be more varied than it’s ideal. This leads to the fact that some would aspire to something not common to larger group. If everyone would be allowed to grow into whatever version they please, then there would not be any community/communities. (And that may be fine. I don’t know.) But to disallow aspirations to outside the norms, just cuts the ability to grow and with it – the most novel chances for positive transformation.
None of us, showed any interest in these teens or the adults that are dealing with this. We just looked for confirmation to our own worldview. Who do we think we are to subject random kids that we never met to be nothing but mere justification for us to spew our values in public?
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