June 29, 2015 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #615919
Are left with questions and no answers. Then you wonder why they are confused.June 29, 2015 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1089947
Someone should tell them to ask privately, so that it doesn’t come across as challenging, and so that it doesn’t confuse others.
More importantly, those who are asked should be trained in how to deal with either scenario.June 29, 2015 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1089948The little I knowParticipant
If the parent or rebbe/teacher knows the answer, their responsibility is to provide it. We all learn this on Pesach. If they don’t know the answer, then there is no reason to ostracize the kid that doesn’t know. This issue is tightly connected to school/yeshiva expulsions, and this is truly disgraceful.June 29, 2015 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1089949
Does that really still happen? In my school, a typical Bais Yaakov in the Tri state area, questions are encouraged. We even have a Question Box, in which one can submit any questions they have anonymously if they want to.June 29, 2015 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #1089950
i’m still being ostracized for my questionsJune 29, 2015 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1089951
The overwhelming majority of today’s Mechanchim welcome and encourage questions, and are not afraid to say, “Good question, let me get back to you.”
Students are seldom, perhaps never, ostracized for their questions, or, for that matter, any other reason.
It is time to leave the tired misconceptions of what schools and Rebbeim are like where they belong – in the past.June 29, 2015 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1089952
Not all teens are Jewish.
Not all teens are students.
Not all teens have Rebbeim.June 29, 2015 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1089953
It’s not a misconception. I went through Gehenoim for my questions. I was called names, yelled at and misunderstood by most people that i spoke to. I learned to keep it to myself and do my own research. It’s true that they said “good question” but when they tried answering me and i argued back and told them their answers were not logical and insufficient, they said i was unwilling to accept and i must have a real problem. One rabbi told me that because i have such questions a yid might not be able to drink wine that i touch. This is not a fairy tale from an angry teenager. This is a true story that happened to me.June 29, 2015 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1089954WolfishMusingsParticipant
We even have a Question Box, in which one can submit any questions they have anonymously if they want to.
The fact that there is a culture whereby some people are afraid to submit questions unless it’s anonymous is telling.
Nonetheless, I’m glad that the box is there and the school encourages it’s use. It is a step in the right direction.
The WolfJune 29, 2015 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1089955feivelParticipant
Oh for heaven’s sake – there is nothing “telling” about this.
In every setting, no matter how open, loving and accepting, there will be those that are more comfortable asking some questions privately.
Would you accept her statement that “questions are encouraged” more readily if they DIDN’T provide an additional means of asking questions for those that are more comfortable with that?June 29, 2015 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1089956
It’s not like that. There are some topics that are really awkward to discuss with a teacher face to face, and so the box is a great way to avoid that awkwardness.
Zev, first off, I am so sorry that you went through that. I just want to know, did this happen recently, like in the past few years or even the last decade?
Catch yourself, +1 🙂June 30, 2015 1:32 am at 1:32 am #1089957
I am in the same boat. When I tell the person offering answers that said answers were insufficient, I was rebuffed as having something wrong with me, or that I am lacking. There are integral parts of life that need answering and so far, unfortunately, I have yet to come across someone with whom I can really discuss the “big” topics (I’ve only been able to discuss with contemporaries, ie friends, never superiors, ie rebbes/mechanchim/parents, without being rebuffed).
How can you say, “perhaps never” when there are examples of individuals on this very thread that have been ostracized for questions that they have asked?June 30, 2015 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1089958☕️coffee addictParticipant
look what can of worms you opened up, rebyidd23June 30, 2015 2:45 am at 2:45 am #1089959
I’m not fishing.June 30, 2015 2:55 am at 2:55 am #1089960
Keep trying! I’m so sad for you… I wish I could hook you up with some of my mentors and teachers.June 30, 2015 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1089961JosephParticipant
Can those saying they’ve been ostracized give examples of the most egregious questions they’ve posed challenges with that prompted the resulting ostracism?June 30, 2015 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1089962
Zev7 and goofus weren’t “ostracized” for asking questions, it was for rejecting the answers.June 30, 2015 3:41 am at 3:41 am #1089964lesschumrasParticipant
In my yeshiva high school during the sixties, our rebbes were musmachim of Lithuanian yeshivas. Boys would ask , in respectful fashion, basic questions ( I.e. why do wear a kippa ) . The rebbes assumed we were just being chutzpadik and yelled at us. Unfortunately, by the time we had a Rebbe ( in our senior year ) who was willing and able to answer, most of the boys were turned off and no longer interested.June 30, 2015 11:55 am at 11:55 am #1089967
Zev, Goofus, anyone else who has been made to feel wrong for asking a question: I feel your pain – I’ve been there, too. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater! Please know that authentic Torah Judaism encourages thoughtfulness and contemplation. As they say, there are no wrong questions, there are only wrong answers.
I concede that the “perhaps never” was a bit of hyperbole, but I still stand by the substance of what I wrote. Just as a few trigger-happy cops don’t exemplify what police officers are really like, so also a few dysfunctional Rebbeim are not definitive of what Rebbeim are like. This is why I called it a misconception. Furthermore, your experience, always a minority one, is becoming progressively more rare, as the field of Chinuch becomes progressively more professional.
In all likelyhood, your experiences were some time ago, at the hands of someone who never should have been in a classroom. This is why the misconception belongs in the past. Today’s Rebbeim are trained to welcome and deal with questions in a very healthy way.
I don’t know what your questions were, nor, as DY pointed out, what answers you were given. Of all the questioners I have known in Yeshivos, only two were made to leave, and both for the same reason [albeit from different institutions]. It was because they refused to engage in intellectually honest discussion. One even claimed not to believe in Abraham Lincoln! A Rebbe can not give an answer if there is not really a question.June 30, 2015 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1089968
Thanks for the explanation, appreciated.
You’re welcome.July 1, 2015 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1089969
Why is slavery condoned by the Torah?July 1, 2015 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1089970
The term slavery, its implications, and how it was carried out, are a very far cry from what the term “eved” means in the Torah. Aside from the strict halachos concerning how we must treat, and cannot treat, an eved, consider the fact that an eved is actually in a separate and more exalted category than an ordinary non Jew, and you will realize that using the word “slavery”, which conjures up images of the South in the 1700’s and 1800’s (and worse), is inaccurate.July 1, 2015 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1089972
It’s just another word lost in translation.July 1, 2015 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1089974YW Moderator-127Moderator
Please keep the following in mind when posting questions and answers:
4 – Understand that this site is called The Yeshiva World and use appropriate expressions. Do not try to slip in double meanings. Understand what is typed is not always what is read (tone).July 1, 2015 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1089975
Perhaps you can tell that my response was not allowed through moderation, understandably.
But suffice to say your explanation is insufficient. I would gladly concede to you that the word eved does not equate to United States antebellum style slavery, though.July 1, 2015 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1089977
I agree that that’s not a complete answer. A more complete answer would involve a much more in depth analysis of the entire sugya, and more importantly, an in depth analysis of where we get our sense of morality from. Perfectly well meaning people from different cultures and different eras can have (and have had) vastly different perceptions of what is moral and what is immoral, and the only impartial arbiter of that is Hashem, and our ability to discern is only through His Torah. We may not understand, but with some humility, should accept our limitations in understanding.July 1, 2015 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1089978
Why should we “accept our limitations in understanding” in some parts of the Torah, but assume we have all the answers when it comes to other parts?
Maybe we don’t understand the parts we are certain to have said understanding.July 1, 2015 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1089979gavra_at_workParticipant
Why is slavery condoned by the Torah?
Note that in your thinking about it, (I believe) one can only become a Jew’s slave by already being a slave to a non-jew or being captured in war as an enemy (excluding those born as that status). Otherwise selling ones self is merely a willing indentured servant.
Correct me if I’m wrong.July 1, 2015 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #1089980
Sorry, I fail to see the relevance even if your thoughts are 100% accurate. Not trying to put you down, I simply don’t understand what you are getting at.July 1, 2015 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1089981
We don’t assume we understand anything 100%. We can only try our best to understand.July 1, 2015 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1089983
How can you say we don’t assume we understand anything 100%?
We understand with certainty that Jews were taken out of Egypt by Hashem. We understand with certainty Hashem rested on Shabbos, and instructed us to do likewise. We understand with certainty pig is treif.July 1, 2015 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1089984
We don’t have a complete understanding of any of those things.July 1, 2015 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1089985
What don’t you understand about pig being treif?July 1, 2015 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1089986zahavasdadParticipant
giving an answer as a threat, is not really a satisfactory answerJuly 1, 2015 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1089987
DaasYochid: I am free of all my questions and doubts at this time in my life. But during my “Tekufa” you would probably have reacted towards me the same way i described all the other people. Just so i understand where you’re at, Do you believe in torah misinai with 100% knowledge yet you recognize that you don’t understand?July 1, 2015 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1089988
is pig treif? Yes, there are explanations, but certainly not any which make me think, “of course, why didn’t I think of that?”.
Zev, I don’t think it’s fair for you to assume how I would have reacted, unless you’re saying that your attitude justified the reactions.
And yes, one can believe without understanding 100%.July 1, 2015 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1089989writersoulParticipant
DY: “Zev7 and goofus weren’t “ostracized” for asking questions, it was for rejecting the answers.”
Okay… does that make it fine? As someone who has gotten some satisfactory and some unsatisfactory answers to questions (and still has a bunch), it’s very common not to feel totally at ease with an answer. Often, though, the problems arise when a teacher gives an answer and intends for it to be a one-size-fits-all response that will erase all doubts. Perhaps the teacher may not know answers to a follow up question. If the student then does say that s/he’s not satisfied or asks a follow up, the teacher can be angry or simply not know what to say and then react inappropriately for the situation.July 1, 2015 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1089990
Okay… does that make it fine?
That depends a lot on the motivation of the question and lack of acceptance of the answer, but generally, I would say no, it’s not fine. However, putting it in that perspective certainly doesn’t make it sound quite as bad as “(S)he yelled at me simply for asking a question!”.July 1, 2015 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1089991
Pig is treif because the Torah says pig is treif. What’s not to understand?July 1, 2015 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1089992
Goofus, first, that’s true but far from complete. Why does Hashem not want us to eat it?
Second, if I told you that slavery is condoned by the Torah because slavery is condoned by the Torah, would that be equally satisfying to you?July 1, 2015 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1089993
Excellent point, it is not at all satisfactory.
Seemingly, we are meant to live a life lacking in understanding.July 1, 2015 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #1089994
We can understand much; there’s so much to learn. We’ll never know everything, though, but part of the beauty of Yiddishkeit is that we get schar for trying to understand as much as we can about His Torah.July 1, 2015 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1089995
Please give an example where we, “can understand much.”
And are you saying we get schar for asking questions that straddle upon apikorsus?July 2, 2015 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1089996feivelParticipant
In actuality you are asking to understand everything Hashem understands.
This is a wonderful aspiration
But of course not possible. Certainly not in this world. In the next world it’s not possible either. But there, there is a constant and continuous elevation of the daas higher and higher closer and closer to Hashems Daas (which can never be reached). There will be more than Simcha. There will be constant laughter because of the new exhilaration and indescribable pleasure of every moment as ones understanding of Hashem grows. This is what Rav Shimshon Dovid Pincus ztl explains.July 2, 2015 12:29 am at 12:29 am #1089997Menachem MelamedParticipant
To those who ask: It is important to recognize that there are many people who ask questions because they want to understand – which is something that should be encouraged, and there are those who aren’t really asking, but are arguing. The difference between questioning and arguing is enormous.
To educators: Many good educators are not qualified to answer certain categories of questions. Invalidating a question or giving a wrong answer are both unacceptable. A mechanech(es) should either research the topic and get back to the student, or help the student get in touch with somone who is qualified to answer the question(s).July 2, 2015 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1089998
The fact that ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? removes all doubt from the conversation. However, it does not mean that we necessarily fully understand the motivation for the ????? or other manifestations of ????? ?????, such as ????? ????? or gravity.
I know that Tylenol relieves headaches, but am hopelessly clueless as to why this is so.
The question of slavery is one which has bothered me for many years, but the fact that there are some things that I do not understand will not affect my knowledge of the truth.July 2, 2015 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1089999
Please give an example where we, “can understand much.”?
I’ll start with your first example – yetzias Mitzrayim. Kol hamarbeh l’saper biyetzias Mitzrayim, harei zeh meshubach. If there’s so much to relate, there’s so much to learn.
And are you saying we get schar for asking questions that straddle upon apikorsus?
That depends on your motivation.July 2, 2015 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1090000
No, I am asking basic questions that should be answered before living one’s life within a certain set of parameters.July 2, 2015 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1090001
No, I am asking basic questions that should be answered before living one’s life within a certain set of parameters.
I disagree. Na’aseh v’nishma. We can live our lives properly, unconditional of receiving answers, as catch yourself and I have pointed out. It means accepting our limitations, but not stopping to strive to understand more.July 2, 2015 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1090002
Tynenol, generically called acetaminophen, acts by inhibiting the cyclooxegenase-2 (COX2) pathway within the body. Without this COX2, the body cannot synthesize the necessary arachidonic acid metabolites for inflammation. This inflammation, a humoral response by the body to fend off infection, is what causes headaches. So inhibition of the mediators of headaches prevents (or relieves) headaches.
Now you know.
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