December 14, 2008 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1192798
I am shocked at the loshon hora and sheker you speak about Rabbi Joseph Solovetchik. You can call me all the names and insinuations you like, but going after him is way beyond the pale.December 14, 2008 2:48 am at 2:48 am #1192799
notpashut-I said Tv with a unit to watch Kosher Cds and DvDs would probably be ok, not watching tv. Television is like welcoming the Evil Inclination into your home. Television stands for Tumah Velt. Viewing of Kosher CDs and DVDs and Software can be done on a computer. By a Kosher CD I mean the Sacred Letters. Rabbi Krohn did a tour in Europe of many of the famous Yeshivas that were RL destroyed during the Shoa. This is the content of this CD ROM. Gematralator by Davka is another example of the Kosher World of DVDs and CD ROM. Miami Boys Choir did a wonderful Misic Concert on DVD, this is another example.December 14, 2008 2:53 am at 2:53 am #1192800
I suppose you are in position to know whether Yanky is telling the truth or not? That you were there personally at the same time he was? If not, where’s the dan l’kav zchus you always scream about? Does it only apply when someone’s saying something you like? You’re such a hypocrite it isn’t even funny anymore.December 14, 2008 4:33 am at 4:33 am #1192801Yanky55Member
Going after Rav Soloveitchik?????? Not sure if you are being sarcastic here or not.
I was very good friends with the Rav’s personal shamas in the late 1970’s.
One day he allowed me to come into the Rav’s apartment where I personally saw the TV. He told me that Rav would occasionally watch the news and read the newspaper to see what was going on in the world.
In fact, the Rav would also sometimes inquire about how the Red Sox were doing, being that his grandchildren in Boston were fans, and he wanted to use that as a vehicle to become close to them so that when they would become a bit older they would be more comfortable learning with him. (In other words, to show them that he is a “down to earth” person).
Where is the loshon hora and sheker in that?December 14, 2008 5:45 am at 5:45 am #1192802
Actually you are a hypocrite. Imagine if c’v Yanky55 said that he personally saw R’ Soloveitchik in mcdonalds? Obviously that would be both lashan hora and sheker (which all lashan hora by definition is). What yanky did say is obviously not on the same madreiga, but the point clearly runs along the same lines.December 14, 2008 6:02 am at 6:02 am #1192803mdlevineMember
The Big One – “Obviously that would be both lashan hora and sheker (which all lashan hora by definition is)”
simply said – your definition is not correct
from “Chofetz Chaim – A Lesson A Day” Aleph Tishrei “…Loshon Hara refers even to true statements… untrue statements are termed hotzaas shem ra, slander”
from Zelig Plishkin “Guard Your Tongue” page 29 True derogatory statements are Loshon hora and false is called motzi shaim ra
you can’t believe it, but your not believing it does not make it false.December 14, 2008 6:12 am at 6:12 am #1192804
Thank you for the correction. My point is the you cannot believe lashan hora.December 14, 2008 6:28 am at 6:28 am #1192805
The Big One:
Then I would be dan lkav zechus that perhaps he did, and that R’ Soloveitchik may have had to use the restroom. This is also a faulty analogy, as eating at McDonalds is inherently assur, whereas the physical television set is not.December 14, 2008 6:37 am at 6:37 am #1192806
illini07: Going into a McDonalds = Maris Ayin.December 14, 2008 6:50 am at 6:50 am #1192807
Back to the issue at hand:
Who wants to roll the dice and find out acher meah v’esrim shona if that TV in the house will cost him a stint in gehenim??December 14, 2008 6:50 am at 6:50 am #1192808
joseph – not really. if they have ANYTHING that’s not unkosher (like soda or a bathroom) it doesn’t qualify. and definately not anymore – after it’s the most over-used example.December 14, 2008 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1192809NobodyMember
A TV and or computer are not evil – as they are merely an aparatus. Their use can be transfered into bad but at the same time good. It depends on how it is used.
It is all about Choice and Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Horoh. In fact we can say this about everything in life.
We are all human beings with the ‘inbuilt’ choice to choose good or bad. How we use these choices makes us what we are. But we definately are not are judges to judge a fellow man and to make assumptions that if he/she watches tv or has a tv they will not have Oilom Haboh. We do not know what the option was and we do not know what the alternatives were for this person at that time, where they came from and at what stage they are in their life.
The references to a Rav having a tv in his apartment or office – again we are not to pass judgment. There are many unerlying reasons for what rabbonin do and who are we to question? A person saw an unkosher food item on the desk of Rav X. Does this mean he approved of the item and would eat it? No. It means it was there for a reason but one doesn’t know why. Ditto the TV. It may be there for others to watch as oppose to other means of entertainment and places to go. It may be necessary for the Rav to keep abreast of things so he can engage in the relevnt conversations required to a job he may be doing.
A person can not genralise on whether a tv and or computer are good or bad and whether one should have one in one’s home or not. This is all relative to a myriad of situations.December 14, 2008 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1192810intellegentMember
I grew up with videos-no tv. My family long since got rid of it but by that time it was easy to get hold of a dvd and slip it into the innocent (??) computer.
Most people in my circles have absolutely no taava to watch videos because they never or rarely watched so it is not something they think about. I, however, really enjoy it and have a strong taava for it. I don’t have any in my home now so I barely have access but when I do I would love to watch. I’m not interested in anything innapropriate and would be quick to forward those parts and in general only view clean things.
Still, I wish I wouldn’t care for it and am trying to work on myself to “free” myself of it.
Now you might say you only watch the news or documantaries or whatever they’re called but still. Don’t try to convince yourself that tv is a positive thing. I understand that everyone has different nisyonos but once you realize that it is a negative thing that is the first step to freedom.
Don’t fool yourself.December 14, 2008 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1192811
Brooklyn19- You are 100% right as far as the flow of the TV thread which is not going in a ruchnious direction.. You have the Black Hatters judging and condeming the more Modern Types. YWN Moderator please close the thread- too much Lashon Hara is being posted. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.December 14, 2008 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1192812
Brooklyn, thanks for pointing that out. The fact of the matter is that saying R’ Soloveitchik had a television set is not undoubtedly a derogatory thing. Broadly categorizing it as lashon hara is asinine.December 14, 2008 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1192813Yanky55Member
I have a TV (surprise!) and here’s what I use it for. I find it very relaxing after a stressful day’s work to watch a Yankee game in the summer, and the Giants in the winter. Monday night football too, if it makes a difference to the Giants playoff chances.
I find the history channel and the discovery channel very informative and interesting.
CNBC provides very good information about the financial markets and the economy in general. Other than that, not much else interests me.
I have no fear of standing before the Melech Malachai Hamilochim after meah v’esrim and giving din v’cheshbon about these programs that I watched.
It is my only form of relaxation and I have no doubt that HKB”H will be okay with me for taking some time to watch these things.
To say that I am automatically doomed to gehenom becuase of this, is pure nonsense.December 14, 2008 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1192814jphoneMember
I’m still trying to figure out just where I advocated that one should or should not have a Television in their home. I did not say one should or could, nor did I say one may not or its best not to. Its not my place to tell anyone what to do. I was simply pointing out that the technology, in and of itself, is not a BAD thing. Telephones offer the possibility of speaking lashon hara with someone around the world, should be ban telephones from every jewish home? The ability to tune a radio to numerous FM stations, anywhere in the world, and hear things that are completely opposite to Torah values (and quite frankly most human values) exists as well. Should we advocate the removal of radios from all homes and automobiles? In fact, the internet offers the ability to see the worst that cable TV and FM radio have to offer, yet nobody assured the internet. Instead we have things like koshernet and kosherphone. If the “internet was assur”, there would be no heter for a site like YWN and no heter for anyone to use this BLOG. The gedolim have advocated the strict monitoring and use of certain technologies. Nobody has come up with a “kosherTV” just yet, but I would not be surprised if newer technologies will allow it.
I am not stating an opionion one way or another. It is not my place. Please do not infer that I am stating one way or another.
I AM curious. During the terrorist atatcks in India several weeks ago, when everyone wanted to know what was going on there were live feeds embedded on the YWN site. Did anyone avoid YWN during those days? They embedded, not only TV, but Cable TV on their site. Is there a difference in what is embedded? What if the YWN editors enbedded todays Giants game so that one can blog and see the game at the same time (Editor: I’m not holding my breath!). Did anyone avoid the site during this time?
I actually complained about it and avoided the main site because of it. I believe The Editor eventually made it into a separate link so that those who wanted to avoid it could. – YW ModeratorDecember 14, 2008 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1192815
You are mistaken. It does not matter if one is a black hatter or modern orthodox. Whether one is Chareidi or MO, if they have a television in the home they will both lose the same Olam Haboah.December 14, 2008 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1192816
That alone should make every Jew take a hammer to the tumah vision. Losing OLAM HABOA to have a tuma vision is insanity.December 14, 2008 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #1192817jphoneMember
Just curious. Would someone rather lose Olam Habba over the Bittul Zman spent watching TV or blogging online?December 14, 2008 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1192818
The Big One:
Clearly you ascribe to the “Divine Calculator” theory of Hashem, whereby Hashem is simply a scorekeeper who tallies objective sin vs. objective mitzva. Following your statement, it would matter not if you could say to HKBH that “yes, I had a television in my house, but I only ever watched 100% clean programming, or recorded and acceptable videos.”
But this is not so, for if it was, then intentions, thoughts, and circumstance would not matter. And we know that this is not so.December 14, 2008 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1192819
jphone, television is bitul zman, but that is way down on the long list of aveiros it entails. And for arguments sake lets say it is as bad as television, should be me matir chazir as well, if we already wrongly go online?
illini07, Maran Hagoen Harav Avigdor Miller ZT’L declared unambigously that television is your free ticket to gehenim.December 14, 2008 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1192820
Could somone post wich particular issur (im) your oiver by watching T.V. that causes you to lose your chelek in olam haba (as opposed to wich ones your oiver stam) along with a mekor that being oiver this issur causes you to lose your chelek in olam haba?December 14, 2008 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1192821
For those who are stating that it’s loshon hara to say that R’ Soloveitchik lived in an apartment which had a television, what about the loshon hara involved in accusing another poster of not telling the truth?
My experience was somewhat different than yours, in that while I was growing up my family did have a television, though I didn’t spend much time watching it & rarely talked about it (because I didn’t find it especially interesting). Many of my classmates who did not have televisions at home arranged to watch television at the homes of relatives or babysitting clients who did own them. One classmate arranged for her regular babysitting client to tape a soap opera she liked to watch, and shared the plot with other classmates. So to say that anyone who grew up without a television never thinks about it, while those who grew up with one do think about it, is not always the case. (Although to be fair it’s quite possible that these classmates, who likely do not have televisions now, don’t miss it either).
That said, I don’t own a television now because I don’t think it’s appropriate for myself or my family (and I don’t miss it a bit). Nevertheless, I would not condemn others to lose their share in olam haba because they own a television. I really doubt that my grandmother o”h, who moved to E”Y towards the end of her life, lost her share in olam haba because she watched the news in English on her 13″ black and white television. I don’t think that R’ Avigdor Miller meant that every single Jew who owns a television, regardless of his/ her reasons for doing so and situation in life, will have no share in olam haba. If someone could share the context in which he made that remark, I’d appreciate it.
I agree that the “divine calculator” theory you describe sounds distinctly unJewish–in fact it sounds like a completely different religion to me.December 14, 2008 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1192822
anon, many people in this thread alone have borne witness that Rav Miller was quite clear and unambiguous and made the statement without exception. TV mean no olam haboa. How much clearer do you need?
Its an obligation upon every Jew to point out that someones statement is loshon hora, lest another Jew fall victim to believing it.
646, with tv you will be oiver just about every issur in the book.December 14, 2008 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1192823
And there are rabbis who are well-respected who would disagree. Luckily, R’ Miller doesn’t decide whether or not I go to gehenom – that is Hashem’s domain, not the rabbanut’s.
There are very few statements about the certainty of causing someone to go to gehenom that should be acceptable to Judaism, considering that no human knows the reality of those statements until they have, unfortunately, passed.
I’ll stick with my rav who says that it’s ok so long as only proper programming is watched. Would R’ Miller say that my rebbe is going to gehenom too?December 14, 2008 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1192824
It is quite ironic that there is a list of perhaps 40? very choshuva Rabbonim in the Opening Post of this thread declaring publicly television is treif gamur. And multiple quotes of Rav Miller ZT’L declaring the result of having television.
Yet no one, not one single poster, is willing or able to post a SINGLE specific Rabbi’s name that is on the record as supporting or allowing having a television in the home.December 14, 2008 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1192825
The big One or Will Hill,
Wich one of the issurim causes you to lose your chelek in olam haba please post it with a mekor.December 14, 2008 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1192826
illini07, who are these anonymous well-respected “Rabbis” who “disagree”?December 14, 2008 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1192827
The Big One,
Are you then saying that the poster who mentioned the television in R’ Soloveichik’s apartment isn’t telling the truth? Or do you think the poster is telling the truth, but was wrong to mention such a thing about R’ Soloveichik?December 14, 2008 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1192828intellegentMember
anon for this
I will reword what I meant. I was not referring exclusively to people who did not own a tv/video. I was referring to those who never really watched it. Of course it is possible that some had access to movies but those people can be placed in a catagory of people who do watch. I meant that those who never really were exposed to movies don’t have a taava. (If someone never tasted chocolate they will generally not crave chocolate… And then again, there are some who tasted it and don’t like it just as there are those who “tasted” movies and are not interested in it.)December 14, 2008 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1192829
Guys, these folks have closed their ears and do not want to hear the truth. No proving and demonstrating the facts will change their behavior. One needs to open their hearts to hear the truth before their is any chance they will change their wrongful behavior. Until then they’ll grasp on whatever illogic to justify it.December 14, 2008 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1192830
Will Hill/The Big One: I would never dream of posting my rebbe’s name on the internet without his explicit permission. But I can guarantee you, that while I am modern orthodox, he is certainly NOT (to the right, not the left, lest you assume otherwise).
Again, with all due respect to R’ Miller, he cannot possibly know that for a fact. And while the rabbanim on this letter urge everyone to get rid of their televisions, they do not go so far as to make such a broad-sweeping claim either.December 14, 2008 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1192831
anon, the claim itself is lashon hara. It is assur to hear it or believe it.December 14, 2008 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1192832
646, Call any of the Rabbonim on the list that signed this gezeira and ask them.December 14, 2008 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1192833qaMember
I agree… if there really are any rabbis that think tv is okay, lets hear who they are so we can see the list of pro-television rabbis (if they even exist) to the long long list of television is treif rabbonim.December 14, 2008 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1192834
anon – whether or not rav soloveichik had a TV – how much are you wiling to bey he’d rule that it’s assur nowadays? times have changed. i’m not saying it ever had a hechsher but there’s a difference between “no hechsher” and “treif”December 14, 2008 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1192835
By time you find out if you lost your Olam Haboah due to your television habits, it will be too late to do anything about it.
As far as your refusing to name your Rabbi, name ANY Rabbi who is on the record supporting television in a Jewish home. I have trouble believing you will find any, but in the unlikely event I am mistaken, please do name ANY that are on the record as such. Our side has given you a boatload of the most respectable Rabbi’s who declared otherwise.December 14, 2008 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1192836
The Big One,
So you do believe the poster wasn’t telling the truth? Or do you think that it is true, but it’s wrong to repeat this story anyway? Please clarify.December 14, 2008 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1192837DocParticipant
Fellows there are virtually no Rabbonim on the record supporting owning a television in the house. Did you really expect the television crowd to be able to answer that? lol
Of course they will come up with excuses beating around the bush in avoiding that question…December 14, 2008 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1192838
I pay closest attention to what my own rebbe tells me, but I will look/inquire when I have the time.
Furthermore, there is a HUGE difference between not condoning a television and saying you will automatically lose your share in olam habah if you have one. The rabbis in the letter above did not go so far, and I would say you’d probably be hard pressed to find anyone else that would hold so broadly regardless of the circumstance of the television ownership. Very few things are black and white – this is certainly NOT one of them.December 14, 2008 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1192839
were in the letter do they say that if you have one you lose your chelek in olam haba?December 14, 2008 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1192840feivelParticipant
cognitive dissonanceDecember 14, 2008 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1192841jewishfeminist02Member
Bogen, there are different opinions regarding television but I don’t think that even the most machmir rav would suggest that television watchers forfeit their portion in olam habah. As it says in Sanhedrin, kol yisrael yesh lahem chelek b’olam habah.December 14, 2008 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1192842
Notice the continuing avoidance of naming a single purported Rabbi that supports or allows televisions in the home.December 14, 2008 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1192843
I have my rav, who says that it is not categorically forbidden to own a television set. He is a rav from the “yeshivish” community, and since he is who I follow/ask my questions, I don’t particularly need another rav’s opinion, whatever it might be. Or does “ask your posek” only mean when you are sure that my posek will agree with what YOU think?December 14, 2008 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1192844
JF02 – There are ways to forfeit it.December 14, 2008 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1192845
Notice the continuing avoidance of naming a single purported Rabbi that supports or allows televisions in the home.December 15, 2008 12:12 am at 12:12 am #1192846ujmParticipant
its absolutely hilarious how hes unable to give a single name of a rabbi in all the world and still tries to avoid an answer!December 15, 2008 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1192847
The TV thread is very provocative to the point that some of the postings (imho) lack Derech Eretz . When the level of Derech Eretz is at a low medreiga then the posting becomes nasty and unkind. Shalom in the cr is more important then Emet. Being sensitive and respectful of others is more important then being right.
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