Television: A Cry of Anguish and Appeal to Our Jewish Brethren 📺

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  • #1192958

    Helpful
    Member

    People looking for excuses will find them for everything from television to short skirts to mixed swimming.

    #1192959

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    And there are always people who want to pile chumras on others when their rabbonim say otherwise. It goes both ways.

    #1192960

    Helpful
    Member

    And then there are people who declare anything that inconveniences them to merely be a discardable “chumra”.

    #1192961

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    When my Rav says muttar and someone says assur, its a chumra for me. So my statement stands.

    #1192962

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    And then there are people who declare anything that inconveniences them to merely be a discardable “chumra”.

    And then there are people who will declare anything they want to enforce, whether a personal preference or chumra to be an actual indispensable halacha.

    The fact of the matter is that both types exist and one needs a rav whom they can shailos to help them navigate between the two.

    The Wolf

    #1192963

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    And then there are people who declare anything that inconveniences them to merely be a discardable “chumra”.

    And then there are those who “conveniently” forget halacha when it suits them, including entire sections of Choshen Mishpat, but never would be Over the “chumra of the week”.

    And then there are those who are serious about being “Lifnim M’shuras Hadin”.

    The Tzeddukim were also big Machmirim.

    That is why there are Rabbonim, and when someone says their Rav was asked, and they got a P’sak, that should be the end of it.

    (disclosure: I don’t own a TV).

    #1192964

    Max Well
    Member

    It is quite notable that we have dozens of rabbonim listed against television and not one listed for it (other than anonymous assertions of nameless “rabbis” by people who feel “comfortable” making the claim but not “comfortable” baking it up), in over a year of this thread/discussion taking place!

    #1192965

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    There is a big difference between posting commentary from well known major halachic players than disclosing a local Rav’s comments, especially since my Rav is not a pulpit Rabbi. I respect his anonymity. I also understand that his psak may not be applicable to everyone.

    #1192966

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    feel free to omit his name, but i am rather interested in hearing what he said…what the premise of his heter was.

    #1192967

    Max Well
    Member

    SJS, what you just said was that some “local non-pulpit Rav” (who still remains unnamed and the veracity of your understanding of his position unverified) is challenging (what you described as) the “well known major halachic players.”

    #1192968

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    When I asked if watching TV was a problem he said no, just to limit it to non-problematic television.

    Max well, he is a talmud of a few well known major poskim in America. I do respect his privacy though. Take it for what its worth, but for me to stop watching TV would be a chumra.

    #1192969

    squeak
    Participant

    SJS, don’t be cowed. “Asei l’cha rav” is a standalone statement. The clause about defending your rav’s position to other people is oddly missing from the mishna.

    Now, I would be perturbed if my rav endorsed having/watching TV (he does not), but to be perfectly honest- up until recently he railed against having/using internet. It is only recently that he (and many other mainstream rabbonim) began to see the need for it, and switched tacts to railing against unfiltered internet. The analogy here is twofold:

    1) Your rav may be able to see a need for TV that other rabbonim do not

    2) Your opponents here are disloyal to their respective rabbonim’s psak of TV=internet. They violate the internet part, and yet they have the gall to rail at you for the TV part.

    #1192970

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    you dont have to answer with specifics…just a yes or no…but do you have a special situation that would warrant watching TV?

    #1192971

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    but do you have a special situation that would warrant watching TV?

    Some yeshivas used to bring in TV’s to watch inaugurations of Presidents, Rocket Launches, and other current events as they were happening.

    I (didn’t &) would not have a problem with it.

    I know that is NOT what you are refering to, but it is a point.

    #1192972

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    no it’s not, because that is regulated by someone else. namely the yeshiva.

    #1192973

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Thanks Squeak.

    And no, no special reason. His logic is that like all leisure activities, it should be used wisely and correctly. He doesn’t tell me how many hours a week to play chess, nor does he specify limiting TV. He only mentions its necessary to maintain proper programming.

    #1192974

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Max well:

    It is quite notable that we have dozens of rabbonim listed against television and not one listed for it (other than anonymous assertions of nameless “rabbis” by people who feel “comfortable” making the claim but not “comfortable” baking it up), in over a year of this thread/discussion taking place!

    Of course no Rabbi is going to issue a “kol koreh” saying specifically to watch TV. A Rabbi might tell his talmidim that in their situation it is muttar and possibly even advisable but I can’t imagine any Rabbi making a blanket statement that it is required or advisable to have a TV. As a general rule, it is inadvisable, hence the letter quoted at the beginning of the thread with many gedolims’ signatures. (as an aside, I heard a story about one of the Gedolim listed that he once brought a TV -yes, a TV, not just a video monitor- into his house for a specific purpose)

    #1192975

    missme
    Member

    squeak: does any rov equate tv = filtered internet (i.e. jewish sites like yw only)? That is an invalid equation.

    #1192976

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    i am so tempted to cross threads right now…

    #1192977

    mexipal
    Participant

    if the only tv ever watched was clean entertainment for relaxation once in a while many of the rabbonim that signed the kol korei might not have such a problem with tv. but honestly if you’re not watching something not kosher your kids are and there’s always commercials. it’s much better for a family not to have tv.

    #1192978

    mosherose
    Member

    “2. The identification as a student of RYBP is wrong and he was really the talmid of a later tanna. “

    Your saying that the gemara is wrong and some sheygitz “historian” is right? And this post was allowed up?

    The gemara says oso haish was a talmid of rav yehoshua ben perachya — end of story! No wonder you consider yurself an apikorus heretic. You are one for even thinking that the gemara is wrong.

    #1192980

    squeak
    Participant

    squeak: does any rov equate tv = filtered internet (i.e. jewish sites like yw only)? That is an invalid equation.

    Yes, as a matter of fact. Up until 2-3 years ago, the mainstream “yeshivish” position was absolutely no internet. It was only recently that the tide turned.

    #1192981

    missme
    Member

    i recall yeshivish rabbonim were always mattir it for parnassa/filter. either way two wrongs dont make a right, so someone cant retort you are doing THIS wrong so dont complain when i do THAT wrong. anyways, can you tell me which rov assured it ever with “absolutely no internet” even for parnassa?? b&h, which is satmar chasidim – the most machmir about internet, has been selling online for over 10 years…

    #1192982

    umm
    Member

    Never mind the tumah…etc that is inevitably seen (you cant deny that, please note: every picture of tumah you see makes an imprint in your heart that you can NEVER remove, and never forget. (I forgot who I heard this from- A rav)BESIDES FOR THAT why would you want such a distraction in your home? SJSinNYC: How many hours a week do you spend in front of the screen? What have you gained from all those hours, i understand your a mom, do the children, housework…etc not give you enough things to do during the day? When your husband’s home, isnt it alot more quality to spend time with him alone without a big screen to distract the two of you? WHAT IS THE GAIN OF TV THAT YOU ARE DEFENDING IT LIKE THIS? Its a hard to step to get rid of it, but I dont think anyone ever regretted such a step, and i’m not talking about the tumah aspect im talking about a quality of life without the dumb screen interfering. It never causes any good.

    #1192983

    notsooldguy
    Member

    I don’t see SJS as defending tv per se, rather she’s talking about a different approach to temptations and distractions- one where self-control plays a role and can triumph over fear, irrational or otherwise. Just my take.

    #1192986

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I don’t really tabulate my hours. As I said, I watch TV while doing other things. I work during the day and do household chores at night. I am not neglecting my children nor my spouse.

    I was visiting my sister and she was telling me how nice it was to have company while she folded laundry. Otherwise she finds it boring. I would rather not be bored while doing laundry – I don’t see the purpose in it. I’m not a big fan of music nor talk radio, nor do I want anything cerebral. So TV fits the bill.

    I think notsooldguy hit the nail on the head. I’m not advocating others to watch TV. I understand why people choose to keep it out of their homes.

    #1192987

    bydrh
    Member

    lemaisah nowadays faced with our nisyonos how can we rid ourselves from tv. Even if one thinks it is okay to have tv in ones house, i would simply like to know how to rid my life of it. since, rav pam did say one who has a tv rids himself of having a chailek in olam haba. To me i rather lose my opportunity to watch then my cheilek cv’s. if anyone has any good books tapes or anything else i am really intrested. I

    #1192988

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    here’s a good tip…take a hammer…smash the screen to bits…collect all the bits neatly into a trash bag…and put it out with your trash.

    and SJSinNYC…i have a solution!!! you obviously have internet…because you grace us with your wonderful posts so often…its a mechayeh…might i suggest some wonderful ebooks?

    I’m not kidding some are really great, with great narrators. quite enjoyable to listen to, even if you’ve already read the book. it’s like watching a movie…while still leaving the plot open for the imagination! you should try it sometime.

    #1192989

    mexipal
    Participant

    i think we should own tvs but not let our kids watch. we should potch them if they watch

    #1192990

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    lol my illegal immigrant loving friend 😀 what’s the difference though? who cares who is watching it?

    #1192991

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Bomb, for some reason I don’t like books on tape. I never have. I love reading though!

    #1192992

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    not like books on tape? :O

    ah well, i tried 🙂

    #1192993

    squeak
    Participant

    bomber, don’t give up so easily! You should volunteer to come and perform books for her.

    #1192994

    mexipal
    Participant

    bomb dont you know we have a higher standard for our kids than ourselves. btw e books are good as lullabies thats about it

    #1192995

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    SJS! i charge 20 bucks an hour to narrate! throw out your TV 😀

    and no mexi…apparently not, both her AND her kids watch TV 😀

    #1192996

    live4Hashem
    Member

    This may not have to do with anything in this thread but I think it’s an important point… It doesn’t matter what type of Jew you are, a Jew is a Jew is a Jew. Whenever you do something, go somewhere, wear something, look at something, say something, do or don’t do something… everyone is watching you. They are watching you and judging you… as a Jew. To them you are a Jew. When they see you doing something wrong or wearing something too short/too tight… they say “what is that Jew doing?” they KNOW you are better than all that, they know you are above all that. We just have to wait until WE realize that we are greater. They view us as greater and have higher expectations BECAUSE WE ARE GREATER. I don’t care what type of Jew you are, you are a Jew. The goyim see you and judge you as a Jew. If you wear something u shouldn’t or do things u shouldn’t they wonder why you are rebelling. They know we dress a certain way and have a certain way we should act. You are a Jew and are judged as a Jew. Remember that always. and remember that a Jew is a Jew no matter what type of Jew so respect him and love him. I hate all the fighting that goes on in this coffee room and yes you may say that I should just stop reading them. I don’t usually read them but it doesn’t matter if I read them or not, they are still being written and read. Why start fighting? you can disagree on issues, no need to get riled up about it. No need to start sinas chinum. we have enough of that thank you, we don’t need more. We have enough goyim hating us, we don’t need Jews as well. Stop fighting on here and stop the lashon hara too. It’s not worth it. Make this site into one that is pure kiddush Hashem and makes Hashem proud. It’s possible. You’re above it and you’re great and you are a Jew no matter what type of Jew. Remember that and act accordingly please. and be proud to be a Jew.

    #1192997

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Bomb, you want me to pay you when I have free entertainment?

    They know we dress a certain way and have a certain way we should act.

    Like 18th century polish royalty?

    #1192998

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    wouldnt you want to pay for the opportunity to get rid of your TV? i could make a business of this…/me wanders off to make ad for yeshivaworld…:D

    but seriously, there must be SOMETHING ELSE you enjoy…everyone has something else

    #1192999

    Kasha
    Member

    Toras HaYichud 3:2:4 writes that men who know of the prohibition of arayos and tznius and yet who still watch television, read unsuitable material or watch movie, etc., are considered prutzim.

    #1193000

    oomis
    Participant

    “here’s a good tip…take a hammer…smash the screen to bits…collect all the bits neatly into a trash bag…and put it out with your trash. “

    Um… I actually think that is against the recycling of electronics law.

    #1193001

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    ahh what would the CR be without you 😀

    #1193002

    golfer
    Participant

    Here is an old thread Joseph linked to on a different thread.

    So we see from here that Joseph was around stirring up 5-page controversies (that’s FIVE pages! I consider myself lucky if I get a reply…) back in the Early Stone Age of the CR.

    In all these years, has anything been accomplished? Would posters say they’ve learned something? Changed an opinion or two? Changed or improved outlook/ hashkafa?

    Have we become better people? More accepting, open-minded people? Have our eyes been opened to things we wouldn’t have be aware of?

    Or just a lot of venting (and a few recipes)? Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, by the way.

    #1193003

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod has changed how she handles men/women first/second in public based on halachic discussions here. She also has become more appreciative of the position on gittin matters I’ve expressed. And both of these are just with one person in the last few weeks.

    So, yeah, change happens in real life as a result of discussions.

    #1193004

    So after years and years of misrepresenting Torah you finally found someone who fell for it. I guess you could call that a statistic.

    #1193005

    Joseph
    Participant

    They weren’t a misrepresentation and she was far from the only one. She was simply a recent example.

    #1193006

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Just for the sake of accuracy, I didn’t actually change the way I do things; I just started being more careful. Trying not to walk in front of men was something I have always done to some extent (or at least for the past several years) when I thought about it, but I didn’t always think about it. And when you are getting on busses in EY, it’s not something you do unless you are really thinking about it and making a real effort.

    Since the discussions came up in the CR, it raised my consciousness and made me more aware of the issues, so I now I think about it more and am more careful.

    #1193007

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “So after years and years of misrepresenting Torah you finally found someone who fell for it.”

    I have a better view of my intelligence than that, thank you very much. As do most people who know me. I wouldn’t call it falling for something; I would call it being open-minded and trying to understand what people really mean by what they are saying as opposed to being judgmental.

    #1193008

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Golfer, was your question about Joseph specifically or about the CR in general?

    #1193009

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    If it was meant as a general question, I would say that I have gained the following from being in the CR during the past 3-4 months:

    1. I have gotten some threads and posts containing LH removed.

    2. Through my LH thread, I have raised awareness of the importance of and knowledge of the halachos of LH in myself if no one else. But it’s hard for me to believe that there was no effect of anyone else, since it’s impossible to read something w/o its affecting you. Also, at least one person did thank me for it.

    3. I have gained a better understanding of other people and how to relate to them.

    4. I have learned that just because something is obvious to me, it doesn’t mean that it is to others. And yes, I did know that already, but I need constant reminders.

    5. I learned to be more tolerant of people who find tznius to be difficult.

    6. I have given chizuk to others.

    7. I have received chizuk from others.

    8. Others have received chizuk from others.

    9. I learned that there are men who know how to apologize.

    10. I have had a much-needed relatively kosher and productive outlet.

    11. I think there have been people who said that they were going to consider taking advice I gave them. For example, Lightbrite mentioned that she may sign up for Partners-in-Torah.

    12. There have been people who acted on advice given in the CR. For example, Happygirlygirl quitting her job and that high school boy (forgot his name) who applied to Chofetz Chaim and Sparkly gettting more “Yeshivish”, and the guy who is becoming a Ger who became more aware that he should research the issue of Judaism’s perspective of yashu and that going to his family for xmas could be problematic, and I think lightbrite went to a shiur because of advice in the CR.

    13. Also, there may be many lurkers who could learn from the advice presented. Even if Lightbrite doesn’t end up reading the book I suggested by Gila Manolson, maybe someone else will google the word “tznius” and come across my post. Or maybe someone will read my posts on hilchos LH and learn a halacha they didn’t know.

    #1193010

    golfer
    Participant

    Gut Voch lilmod ulela!

    If you look at my post you’ll see I wrote, “”Would posters say…” – I meant All posters. “Have we become…” – I meant all of us.

    Joseph happens to be a prolific poster who generally answers all questions directed to him (or not).

    You”ll notice I commented that I don’t always have that experience as far as anyone else goes…

    But- thanks for asking!

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